"The Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

[ScottA]

There has been and is a great misunderstanding about Jesus' return, that is in need of correction.

The title above is from Matthew 16:28, Jesus speaking, "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Now, reconcile that, with:

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” John 18:36​

and:

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:20-21​

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings ScottA,

There has been and is a great misunderstanding about Jesus' return, that is in need of correction.
The title above is from Matthew 16:28, Jesus speaking, "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Jesus is alluding to the Transfiguration which is a vision of what Jesus will be like when he returns in his Kingdom and appears in glory.

Matthew 16:28–17:9 (AV): 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

2 Peter 1:16–18 (AV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[markalan]

There has been and is a great misunderstanding about Jesus' return, that is in need of correction.

The title above is from Matthew 16:28, Jesus speaking, "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Now, reconcile that, with:

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” John 18:36​

and:

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:20-21​

I often start looking at a topic by doing a word study to see how the same Greek word is used elsewhere in the NT.
Matthew 16:28 Blue Letter Bible

Without doubt, believers have already become members of God's kingdom

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

However, the word is also used to refer to a coming kingdom

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[ScottA]

Greetings ScottA,

Jesus is alluding to the Transfiguration which is a vision of what Jesus will be like when he returns in his Kingdom and appears in glory.

Matthew 16:28–17:9 (AV): 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

2 Peter 1:16–18 (AV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes, that is true, it was indeed "a vision of what Jesus will be like when he returns in his Kingdom and appears in glory." And more.

It was a visual of what is otherwise unseen when Jesus returns--the reason He said it "does not come by observation." Which is because His return is "within you" spiritually, and everyone born of the spirit is not presently visible (John 3:8).

But it was also a vision of the timing of Jesus' overall coming and return as being from the beginning to the end of this world. Which is stated, and played out, and written, as "And after six days." Jesus is "the Beginning and the End", which says much the same thing. Only in the transfiguration, it is stated...or elaborated, with ties to the days of creation--the first prophecy of the timing of the whole plan of God. But that part of the vision was then only alluded to, as many generations to come would also be given the same opportunity to look forward to His return with hope. Which does not rightly mean He returns in one big "future" event as many believe. But rather means that the day of salvation and His coming for everyone is "today" (as He told the thief on the cross). Which is the time of salvation and His coming according to God who is timeless. And yet, because we don't experience the times of this world in that way, Paul included a "but" in his explanation, saying "but each one in his own order."

So, yes, it is correct to speak of things in terms of the times of this world, but better if we understand there is a "but" with God, meaning it is not as it appears. And it is time we start thinking that way--which Paul referred to as "the renewing of your mind."

 

[ScottA]

I often start looking at a topic by doing a word study to see how the same Greek word is used elsewhere in the NT.
Matthew 16:28 Blue Letter Bible

Without doubt, believers have already become members of God's kingdom

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

However, the word is also used to refer to a coming kingdom

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Yes, good!

That difference however, does not mean there is a conflict, or that it is right that we define our beliefs on the one as opposed to the other.

Both are correct. But we should know and understand that Paul was addressing his use of words to be correct for that present time, but also correct in the future. As he even clarified elsewhere, saying, "but each one in his own order."

All of which is confirmed by Jesus' referring to the timing of the thief on the cross experiencing the fulfillment of God's coming kingdom, as "today." And then again, with Paul, saying, "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation" (2 Corinthians 6:2). Which would continue to be true throughout the entire church age.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ScottA,

All of which is confirmed by Jesus' referring to the timing of the thief on the cross experiencing the fulfillment of God's coming kingdom, as "today."

Jesus is the King of the Kingdom and he rules in our hearts, but the Bible clearly speaks of the future Kingdom of God when Jesus will come to establish His Kingdom on the earth and replace the present kingdoms of men Daniel 2:35,44, 1 Timothy 4:1. In the vision of the Transfiguration Moses also appeared in glory and spoke to Jesus and yet he is both dead and buried and awaits the resurrection at the return of Jesus. The thief on the cross is also dead and buried and awaits the resurrection when Jesus returns, according to what he asked Jesus and Jesus affirmed already that the thief will find a place in the future Paradise on the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WalterandDebbie]

There has been and is a great misunderstanding about Jesus' return, that is in need of correction.

The title above is from Matthew 16:28, Jesus speaking, "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Now, reconcile that, with:

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” John 18:36​

and:

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:20-21​

Great post, Brother. How are you all? We are well. Thank you for sharing. , Walter and Debbie

 

[Justified]

There has been and is a great misunderstanding about Jesus' return, that is in need of correction.

The title above is from Matthew 16:28, Jesus speaking, "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Now, reconcile that, with:

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” John 18:36​

and:

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:20-21​

Luk 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

It is very unlikely that Jesus would tell the unbelieving Pharisees that the kingdom of God was within them. For the kingdom of God to be within a person requires repentance and faith in Jesus. He could have been implying that it was “within your grasp,” but that isn’t clear.

“In the midst of you” or “among you” is a better translation, as it would refer to Jesus himself or at least the in-breaking of the kingdom he was bringing through his works and teaching.

 

[ScottA]

Luk 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

It is very unlikely that Jesus would tell the unbelieving Pharisees that the kingdom of God was within them. For the kingdom of God to be within a person requires repentance and faith in Jesus. He could have been implying that it was “within your grasp,” but that isn’t clear.

“In the midst of you” or “among you” is a better translation, as it would refer to Jesus himself or at least the in-breaking of the kingdom he was bringing through his works and teaching.

You make a good point.

However, consider that even the evil are gathered up to the eternal realm of God "some to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt." Which could also be said simply as a matter only attainable within each of our own hearts. But any such thoughts, translations, or speculations all end the same: What we see by observation of things in this world, is not really where the kingdom of God is to be found. Not even in "following Jesus" only in this world--because He not only came and walked in this world, but also ascended out of it.

 

[Jay Ross]

The title above is from Matthew 16:28, Jesus speaking, "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

The translation of this verse above is contextually inaccurate and should be translated in this manner: -

Matthew 16:28: - The outcome for not take up our cross​

(Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27, John 8:51-52)​

​

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste the second death until after they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."​

and the context is found in the verses above verse 28: -

Matthew 16:24-28 - Take Up the Cross and Follow Him​

(Mark 8:34-38; Luke 9:23-26)​

​

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works/fruit.​

​

The outcome for not take up our cross​

(Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27, John 8:51-52)​

​

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste the second death until {after} they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."​

What was the time period that Jesus was pointing to in verse 28?

He was referring to the time He will return with all of the heavenly Hosts to judge all the peoples of the earth from the time of Adam up and until His second Advent.

Shalom​

 

[ScottA]

The translation of this verse above is contextually inaccurate and should be translated in this manner: -

​

Matthew 16:28: - The outcome for not take up our cross​

(Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27, John 8:51-52)​

​

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste the second death until after they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."​

and the context is found in the verses above verse 28: -

​

Matthew 16:24-28 - Take Up the Cross and Follow Him​

(Mark 8:34-38; Luke 9:23-26)​

​

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works/fruit.​

​

The outcome for not take up our cross​

(Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27, John 8:51-52)​

​

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste the second death until {after} they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."​

What was the time period that Jesus was pointing to in verse 28?

He was referring to the time He will return with all of the heavenly Hosts to judge all the peoples of the earth from the time of Adam up and until His second Advent.

Shalom​

Yeah, that was not really the point, but thank you, it's good to consider other translations.

But your timing would appear to be only future as in a one-time mass event. Yet that doesn't work with all scripture, it doesn't reconcile. Not with "this generation"--or "that generation" if you prefer, not with "today" (as He told the thief on the cross), not with everyone living and dying in their own time--or should I say, "but each one in his own order" as Paul clarified. That is just naming a few, there are many, many more.

But the point--the point was that Jesus is not coming (again) in this world per se--but "in His kingdom." Which then "every eye" can see, and everyone's "today" of being with Jesus in Paradise then aligns as even being outside of time...which John 18:36 confirms (among others).

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ScottA,

But the point--the point was that Jesus is not coming (again) in this world per se--but "in His kingdom." Which then "every eye" can see, and everyone's "today" of being with Jesus in Paradise then aligns as even being outside of time

I prefer the clear teachings of the OT prophets and the NT that Jesus will return and establish His Kingdom on the earth. I also prefer the shifting of the comma in the following and this aligns with the context of what the thief asked of Jesus. Ethelbert W Bullinger also endorses this translation in his Companion Bible.

Luke 23:39-43 (KJV adjusted): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Jesus was in the grave for three days and not in Paradise. The thief was also dead awaiting the resurrection at the return of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jay Ross]

Yeah, that was not really the point, but thank you, it's good to consider other translations.

But your timing would appear to be only future as in a one-time mass event. Yet that doesn't work with all scripture, it doesn't reconcile. Not with "this generation"--or "that generation" if you prefer, not with "today" (as He told the thief on the cross), not with everyone living and dying in their own time--or should I say, "but each one in his own order" as Paul clarified. That is just naming a few, there are many, many more.

But the point--the point was that Jesus is not coming (again) in this world per se--but "in His kingdom." Which then "every eye" can see, and everyone's "today" of being with Jesus in Paradise then aligns as even being outside of time...which John 18:36 confirms (among others).

The Second Death is a distant future event where the destiny of each one judged is decided, some to everlasting Life while others to the Lake of Fire which is the Second death.

Gen 2:17 is also badly translated because of the inability for people to grasp the concept that they, if they sin, will become a candidate for the second death at some time in the future.

Ezekiel 18 tells us that if a righteous man sins, that he will not live and everlasting life but will instead the second death if he will not repent of his sin. It also tells us that son is not responsible for his father's sin and the subsequent outcome of being dispatched into the Lake of Fire just as the father is not responsible for the son sins in like manner.

Revelation 20 tells us that the Second death only comes into play at the time of the GWTR judgement of all of mankind.

Sadly, Mat 16:28 is not understood within the context of the judgement outcome at the end of this present time, i.e. the time that spans seven ages, and have placed the outcome back into the confines of the first advent which means that people have not hear or seen what the future holds for those who will not become disciples of Christ and as such they assume that Jesus was only pointing towards a physical death and that in His resurrection His return was marked by the coming of His Kingdom as well.

However, Daniel 7:11-14 shows that Christ's receiving of dominion over all of the peoples of the earth will not happen until the Beasts and the Little Horn and Satan have been judged and dispatched into the Bottomless Pit with the kings of the earth who will be judged at Armageddon as Isaiah 24:21-22 foretells.

It is my view that many who are alive today, will see the judgement of the Kings of the Earth at the place called Armageddon in our near future, when God's Covenant of Peace with the Israelites and the Gentiles comes into play for 1,000 years.

Shalom

 

[ScottA]

Greetings again ScottA,

I prefer the clear teachings of the OT prophets and the NT that Jesus will return and establish His Kingdom on the earth. I also prefer the shifting of the comma in the following and this aligns with the context of what the thief asked of Jesus. Ethelbert W Bullinger also endorses this translation in his Companion Bible.

Luke 23:39-43 (KJV adjusted): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Jesus was in the grave for three days and not in Paradise. The thief was also dead awaiting the resurrection at the return of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

Both are fine translations, regardless of the comma placement.

The issue, and the problem, however, is not to be solved or fully understood merely by the rule of times according to the ways of this world as they are defined. The matter transcends time. This equation has two different sides, each having their own defining terms...which need to be rightly divided. Do understand--that is true of every word from God--some passages refer to things according to the terms of this world, and some not, but according to the terms of heaven. This particular subject has both.

So addressing what you said, Jesus returning and establishing His Kingdom on earth, is not defined or literally separate as being "above." It is within, while the world is outward. So, if within those "on earth"--it is not wrong to say or write of it as "on earth"--but that does reveal the limits of language to communicate accurately without interpretation...and I would also and spiritual discernment, but many think that they have "all truth" discernment rather than "here a little there a little." It is by that gross over estimation of spiritual knowledge that causes many to preach and to teach beyond their own cistern. Regardless, all language has been confuse by God, all, and not to be considered reliable in and of itself--even--and especially within the scriptures. Which is greater, a good printed map, or Him who set the coordinates?

As for the comma shift, it works both ways: Jesus said it that day, but was referring to that day being the last day when the thief would be absent for the body, crossing the line between the two causing the need to translate between the two according to there different terms by definition. And that is the difficulty and the rub of this topic. Not because it is so hard to see or understand--but because many do not even see that what is written can be as different as heaven and earth.

The question then becomes, who is even willing to see?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

There has been and is a great misunderstanding about Jesus' return, that is in need of correction.

The title above is from Matthew 16:28, Jesus speaking, "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Now, reconcile that, with:

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” John 18:36​

and:

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:20-21​

Hello, My Brother, MATTHEW 16:28 KJV Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the... .....

JOHN 18:36 KJV Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants... .......

LUKE 17:20 KJV And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and.........

LUKE 17:21 KJV Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Love, Walter

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ScottA,

The issue, and the problem, however, is not to be solved or fully understood merely by the rule of times according to the ways of this world as they are defined. The matter transcends time.The question then becomes, who is even willing to see?

I cannot accept your perspective. It tries to give a deep spiritual discernment, but I would label it as fantasy.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ScottA]

Greetings again ScottA,

I cannot accept your perspective. It tries to give a deep spiritual discernment, but I would label it as fantasy.

Kind regards
Trevor

Sorry that you are not of a mind to believe the greater things of God that, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ScottA,

There has been and is a great misunderstanding about Jesus' return, that is in need of correction.
.....
Sorry that you are not of a mind to believe the greater things of God that, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

I consider that much of what you say is contrary to the simple and clear teachings of Scripture.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ScottA]

Greetings again ScottA,

I consider that much of what you say is contrary to the simple and clear teachings of Scripture.

Kind regards
Trevor

Unfortunately for you much of the scriptures are also more than simple, even considered of demons, crazy, and the words of drunken men, as it is written. You should know that. Your setting limits is on you.