Be Careful of the wolves in sheeps clothing

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus warned us to be wary of the wolves in sheeps' clothing!

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

There are so many people wandering the halls of Christianity and on this forum who appear to be sheep or shepherds but in fact are ravenous wolves who either knowingly or unknowingly are leading the flocks of God astray.

Think for a moment. How many times have you seen people on these threads who promote "new teaching", "new revelation, " "higher spiritual meaning" or even boldly reinterpreting the Word of God. Do you really think that the Lord in 2000 years of church history could not reveal these "higher truths" to the church and was forced to wait until so and so came along to tell us that God revealed to them what He actually meant to say?

Also do you think that God, who created language and grammar, needs us to edit His Inspired Word and have someone reveal to us that even though God insspired words to be read, He really meant something else?

There isd a way to reasd the bible that is safe and causes one to learn and grow in grace and knowledge. It is known as the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture. Or the golden rule of interpretation:

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

This method recognizes that the bible uses symbols, apocalyptic language, idioms and metaphors. However the bible also defines its symbols and we need not seek to go outside of Scripture itself. the only time we need to study outside of Scripture is to learn the culture and idiomatic use of language the originals used. This will keep us much freer from error than all these new "higher spiritual meanings" that keep popping up. Jesus warned us that in these last days false prophets and teachings would abound!

 

[marks]

Jesus warned us to be wary of the wolves in sheeps' clothing!

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

There are so many people wandering the halls of Christianity and on this forum who appear to be sheep or shepherds but in fact are ravenous wolves who either knowingly or unknowingly are leading the flocks of God astray.

Think for a moment. How many times have you seen people on these threads who promote "new teaching", "new revelation, " "higher spiritual meaning" or even boldly reinterpreting the Word of God. Do you really think that the Lord in 2000 years of church history could not reveal these "higher truths" to the church and was forced to wait until so and so came along to tell us that God revealed to them what He actually meant to say?

Also do you think that God, who created language and grammar, needs us to edit His Inspired Word and have someone reveal to us that even though God insspired words to be read, He really meant something else?

There isd a way to reasd the bible that is safe and causes one to learn and grow in grace and knowledge. It is known as the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture. Or the golden rule of interpretation:

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

This method recognizes that the bible uses symbols, apocalyptic language, idioms and metaphors. However the bible also defines its symbols and we need not seek to go outside of Scripture itself. the only time we need to study outside of Scripture is to learn the culture and idiomatic use of language the originals used. This will keep us much freer from error than all these new "higher spiritual meanings" that keep popping up. Jesus warned us that in these last days false prophets and teachings would abound!

This is the only way that Bible readers will all arrive at the same understandings. Once you start declaring "hidden spiritual meanings", well, no two people will have the same across the board.

Either you take the Bible for what it plainly says, or you end up in an interpretation that will be all your own. I've seen this demonstrated over and over and over again.

Much love!

 

[PS95]

Jesus warned us to be wary of the wolves in sheeps' clothing!

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

There are so many people wandering the halls of Christianity and on this forum who appear to be sheep or shepherds but in fact are ravenous wolves who either knowingly or unknowingly are leading the flocks of God astray.

Think for a moment. How many times have you seen people on these threads who promote "new teaching", "new revelation, " "higher spiritual meaning" or even boldly reinterpreting the Word of God. Do you really think that the Lord in 2000 years of church history could not reveal these "higher truths" to the church and was forced to wait until so and so came along to tell us that God revealed to them what He actually meant to say?

Also do you think that God, who created language and grammar, needs us to edit His Inspired Word and have someone reveal to us that even though God insspired words to be read, He really meant something else?

There isd a way to reasd the bible that is safe and causes one to learn and grow in grace and knowledge. It is known as the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture. Or the golden rule of interpretation:

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

This method recognizes that the bible uses symbols, apocalyptic language, idioms and metaphors. However the bible also defines its symbols and we need not seek to go outside of Scripture itself. the only time we need to study outside of Scripture is to learn the culture and idiomatic use of language the originals used. This will keep us much freer from error than all these new "higher spiritual meanings" that keep popping up. Jesus warned us that in these last days false prophets and teachings would abound!

I think it's helpful also to note the context of your verse in Matthew 7. Verse 22 is thrown about often especially by false prophet cults & other self righteous types. They don't notice that the finger Jesus is pointing is at themselves. Unfortunately, there are many false prophets among us. Check their fruits very carefully- There is a multitude of deception.

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

 

[ScottA]

Jesus warned us to be wary of the wolves in sheeps' clothing!

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

There are so many people wandering the halls of Christianity and on this forum who appear to be sheep or shepherds but in fact are ravenous wolves who either knowingly or unknowingly are leading the flocks of God astray.

Think for a moment. How many times have you seen people on these threads who promote "new teaching", "new revelation, " "higher spiritual meaning" or even boldly reinterpreting the Word of God. Do you really think that the Lord in 2000 years of church history could not reveal these "higher truths" to the church and was forced to wait until so and so came along to tell us that God revealed to them what He actually meant to say?

Also do you think that God, who created language and grammar, needs us to edit His Inspired Word and have someone reveal to us that even though God insspired words to be read, He really meant something else?

There isd a way to reasd the bible that is safe and causes one to learn and grow in grace and knowledge. It is known as the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture. Or the golden rule of interpretation:

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

This method recognizes that the bible uses symbols, apocalyptic language, idioms and metaphors. However the bible also defines its symbols and we need not seek to go outside of Scripture itself. the only time we need to study outside of Scripture is to learn the culture and idiomatic use of language the originals used. This will keep us much freer from error than all these new "higher spiritual meanings" that keep popping up. Jesus warned us that in these last days false prophets and teachings would abound!

It saddens me to read this because 1) it puts a governor on the scriptures that is not God alone but the ways, logic, and reasoning of men, and 2) it hinders the Spirit (which you didn't mention).

But yes--and I wanted so to say Hallelujah to your first three paragraphs--because that much is indeed a problem! But I could not because you then attributed the good warnings against such only to things not tamely and acceptably within the church that those "false teachers" and "prophets" entered into forming much of modern doctrine; and only to what was written on parchment, and not allowing for what is written on hearts as promised.

So the rules adopted by so many, as you have defined them, are a limit that would even restrict God--during the times God has appointed to--not to limit--but literally (as men like to say) pour out His spirit upon all flesh. Do you not see the error in that?

And what of God's appointing of "some prophets" during these times? Do you not know that they also are among the sheep--or even not, as was the case with John the Baptist?

Sadly, your counsel does not include the whole counsel of God.

 

[Justified]

It saddens me to read this because 1) it puts a governor on the scriptures that is not God alone but the ways, logic and reasoning of men, and 2) it hinders the Spirit (which you didn't mention).

But yes--and I wanted so to say Hallelujah to your first three paragraphs--because that much is indeed a problem! But I could not because you then attributed the good warnings against such only to things not tamely and acceptably within the church that those "false teachers" and "prophets" entered into forming much of modern doctrine; and only to what was written on parchment, and not allowing for what is written on hearts as promised.

So the rules adopted by so many, as you have defined them, are a limit that would even restrict God--during the times God has appointed to--not to limit--but literally (as men like to say) pour out His spirit upon all flesh. Do you not see the error in that?

And what of God's appointing of "some prophets" during these times? Do you no know that they also are among the sheep--or even not, as was the case with John the Baptist?

Sadly, your counsel does not include the whole counsel of God.

Hasn’t God himself already put limits? In addition to warnings about false prophets and false teachers, and to ensure correct doctrine is taught:

Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.

Deu 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Anything that contradicts Scripture is not of God. Given that errors and false teaching were occurring during the time of the apostles and Peter states that some things Paul wrote were hard to understand, don’t we all the more need rules today to ensure proper exegesis is done to keep errors as much to a minimum as possible? Rules for interpretation are intended to prevent things like the NAR and Word of Faith movements. But here we are.

 

[ScottA]

Hasn’t God himself already put limits? In addition to warnings about false prophets and false teachers, and to ensure correct doctrine is taught:

Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.

Deu 12:32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Anything that contradicts Scripture is not of God. Given that errors and false teaching were occurring during the time of the apostles and Peter states that some things Paul wrote were hard to understand, don’t we all the more need rules today to ensure proper exegesis is done to keep errors as much to a minimum as possible? Rules for interpretation are intended to prevent things like the NAR and Word of Faith movements. But here we are.

You were doing well until the last paragraph--with all exegesis.

It is indeed understandable that we might think to add more rules--but it is not biblically advisable. That is what Israel did and got it trouble for it, for looking to the letter of the Law rather than the spirit, and for reasoning among themselves.

But exegesis is just men of whatever actual level of understanding leaning on their own understanding and making their own rules. Such a test, is no test at all...except as a test of those making and imposing the rules. And, no, rules are not the problem--John the Baptist and others were totally abandon to God, but were persecuted if not killed for honoring only God.

To the contrary, much of the New Testament was devoted to usher in the Kingdom of God whom is spirit, and abiding in the Spirit and not the cares of this world and the teachings of men. The time of Christ was actually the kickoff, but yes, here we are with many still looking to their own resources in judgement of other men, and preferring the ways of this world, and the flesh. I mean--for example--Jesus said He was coming/returning in the glory of the Father...and the glory of the Father is the flesh right? No, absolutely not! But that is what the greater portion of all of Christendom believes and teaches--and vehemently defends it with their exegesis and teachings of men who went before them against the warnings of "false teachers" entering the church with their "destructive heresies" during the times to come that are still being taught.

We were suppose to "press on" "bringing the flesh under subjection to the Spirit", "even leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ." But we have failed to do so...and so, yes, there are wolves among the sheep--but they are not who those wolves say they are and would have you believe. Just ask them...but bring a sling!

 

[Brakelite]

Do you really think that the Lord in 2000 years of church history could not reveal these "higher truths" to the church and was forced to wait until so and so came along to tell us that God revealed to them what He actually meant to say?

There truths taught and accepted by the early church, that for 1500 years were trodden under foot, obscured, and laid aside in favor of superstitions and traditions that contradicted scripture. Then the reformation came which Brendan a work of restoration. Has that work finished? If not, then yes, there is need of teaching that will sound new and commonly rejected by the present orthodoxy.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus warned us to be wary of the wolves in sheeps' clothing!

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

There are so many people wandering the halls of Christianity and on this forum who appear to be sheep or shepherds but in fact are ravenous wolves who either knowingly or unknowingly are leading the flocks of God astray.

Think for a moment. How many times have you seen people on these threads who promote "new teaching", "new revelation, " "higher spiritual meaning" or even boldly reinterpreting the Word of God. Do you really think that the Lord in 2000 years of church history could not reveal these "higher truths" to the church and was forced to wait until so and so came along to tell us that God revealed to them what He actually meant to say?

Also do you think that God, who created language and grammar, needs us to edit His Inspired Word and have someone reveal to us that even though God insspired words to be read, He really meant something else?

There isd a way to reasd the bible that is safe and causes one to learn and grow in grace and knowledge. It is known as the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture. Or the golden rule of interpretation:

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

This method recognizes that the bible uses symbols, apocalyptic language, idioms and metaphors. However the bible also defines its symbols and we need not seek to go outside of Scripture itself. the only time we need to study outside of Scripture is to learn the culture and idiomatic use of language the originals used. This will keep us much freer from error than all these new "higher spiritual meanings" that keep popping up. Jesus warned us that in these last days false prophets and teachings would abound!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think it's helpful also to note the context of your verse in Matthew 7. Verse 22 is thrown about often especially by false prophet cults & other self righteous types. They don't notice that the finger Jesus is pointing is at themselves. Unfortunately, there are many false prophets among us. Check their fruits very carefully- There is a multitude of deception.

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Yes they produce poison frui9t, but remember they are wolves diguised as sheep,
They are tares that are identical to wheat until near harvest time
they are angels of light.

They preach peace love and tolerance in the name of God, but it is still false.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There truths taught and accepted by the early church, that for 1500 years were trodden under foot, obscured, and laid aside in favor of superstitions and traditions that contradicted scripture. Then the reformation came which Brendan a work of restoration. Has that work finished? If not, then yes, there is need of teaching that will sound new and commonly rejected by the present orthodoxy.

But all one need to is to study to show themseves approved from that 1900+year old book and realize they are old teachings.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I mean--for example--Jesus said He was coming/returning in the glory of the Father...and the glory of the Father is the flesh right? No, absolutely not! But that is what the greater portion of all of Christendom believes and teaches--and vehemently defends it with their exegesis and teachings of men who went before them against the warnings of "false teachers" entering the church with their "destructive heresies" during the times to come that are still being taught.

We were suppose to "press on" "bringing the flesh under subjection to the Spirit", "even leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ." But we have failed to do so...and so, yes, there are wolves among the sheep--but they are not who those wolves say they are and would have you believe. Just ask them...but bring a sling!

You were doing well until here when you promote am apostate teaching. this is not new, the gnostics taught this lie as well!

Jesus physically arose from teh dead in the glorified body all men will reciev. One that will not taste death ever again, either in tthe new order or the lake of fire.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

death is for the body alone. hell is the grave.

Jesus ascended physically into heaven in teh resurrected body being the first fruits from the dead.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It saddens me to read this because 1) it puts a governor on the scriptures that is not God alone but the ways, logic, and reasoning of men, and 2) it hinders the Spirit (which you didn't mention).

But yes--and I wanted so to say Hallelujah to your first three paragraphs--because that much is indeed a problem! But I could not because you then attributed the good warnings against such only to things not tamely and acceptably within the church that those "false teachers" and "prophets" entered into forming much of modern doctrine; and only to what was written on parchment, and not allowing for what is written on hearts as promised.

So the rules adopted by so many, as you have defined them, are a limit that would even restrict God--during the times God has appointed to--not to limit--but literally (as men like to say) pour out His spirit upon all flesh. Do you not see the error in that?

And what of God's appointing of "some prophets" during these times? Do you not know that they also are among the sheep--or even not, as was the case with John the Baptist?

Sadly, your counsel does not include the whole counsel of God.

1. It does not hinder the Spirit. The Spirit will not contradict nor alter the Inspired Word of God. God HImself is the governor of His Word.

Remember the warning of rev. 22.

As I do not have a clue to what you mean by "modern doctrine" I cannot answer it. I know biblical doctrine by the study of the Word. And I compare the teachings of men against the Word, especially when they say they have new revelation, hidden insight or higher spiritual meanings.

Any teachings, insight, revelation of higher meaning that alters, contradicts or adds or detracts from teh written Inspired Word of God given by God to mankind is demonic and must be resisted and exposed at all costs.

 

[ScottA]

You were doing well until here when you promote am apostate teaching. this is not new, the gnostics taught this lie as well!

Jesus physically arose from teh dead in the glorified body all men will reciev. One that will not taste death ever again, either in tthe new order or the lake of fire.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

death is for the body alone. hell is the grave.

Jesus ascended physically into heaven in teh resurrected body being the first fruits from the dead.

No...the Gnostics did not teach what I said (pointing out the greater points of scripture), they taught that Jesus had already come (pass tense).

Next!

No again...Jesus rose from the dead bodily, yes. But that was not His ascension which is the pattern example of those who follow Him as firstfruits. But, no, for forty days Jesus did not exist in that spiritual body that was after His ascension. What actually occurred--because that was not His only mission--was that He revealed that 1) He had conquered death, 2) He was who He said He was, 3) He was like the angels and could manifest in bodily form, pass through walls, etc. at will, and 4) appeared specifically for forty days (spiritually meaning a lifetime) as a revelation that it was He who walked with "his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land", as both God and man, a prophecy confirming the content of the book of Revelation.

And it is rather in His ascension--a separate event--that He showed, as firstfruits, an example of the resurrection, where the flesh of all who are born again of the spirit of God, fades into obscurity, and "the spirit returns to God who gave it" where "flesh and blood cannot inherit."

 

[ScottA]

1. It does not hinder the Spirit. The Spirit will not contradict nor alter the Inspired Word of God. God HImself is the governor of His Word.

Remember the warning of rev. 22.

As I do not have a clue to what you mean by "modern doctrine" I cannot answer it. I know biblical doctrine by the study of the Word. And I compare the teachings of men against the Word, especially when they say they have new revelation, hidden insight or higher spiritual meanings.

Any teachings, insight, revelation of higher meaning that alters, contradicts or adds or detracts from teh written Inspired Word of God given by God to mankind is demonic and must be resisted and exposed at all costs.

The problem is, you have referred to the church and the understanding of men--or your own understanding of the scriptures, as the final say.

What is missing in all that, is that God's word and what is true or not, is under God's providence alone...He hasn't left things under control of corrupt men, nor their tainted doctrinal understanding. Five out of seven churches He named as having somewhat against--even back then! They are not the church He left things to. Or, what, you think He just said "Oh well, let them decide and teach whatever false doctrines they want?" But here you have approved of them, and how did you do that--how could you do that, if not by leaning on your own understanding? (Rhetorical).

Meanwhile, your accusations are somewhat correct--there are indeed false teachers and prophets among us. Absolutely! So, why would you not be trying to look outside their influences within the church, and question every doctrine they are teaching--and--look to God to provide what is missing within that corrupt sphere, and know that when He hears in heaven He moves...often unexpectedly--but consistently to His established methods? Think! When Saul corrupted the ruling of Israel--what did God do--rely on scripture-reading experts within to chip away at the good fight of what good men of God should do...or whatever you said about your "reading the bible and growing in grace? Is that what He did?

Would you like to give God your advice on what He should do now that the church has suffered under false teachers and prophets way back when whose false doctrines are still being taught? Are we talkin' good bible study time--or...what again did God do with Israel?

Now I sound like amigo--see what you've done!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No...the Gnostics did not teach what I said (pointing out the greater points of scripture), they taught that Jesus had already come (pass tense).

Next!

No again...Jesus rose from the dead bodily, yes. But that was not His ascension which is the pattern example of those who follow Him as firstfruits. But, no, for forty days Jesus did not exist in that spiritual body that was after His ascension. What actually occurred--because that was not His only mission--was that He revealed that 1) He had conquered death, 2) He was who He said He was, 3) He was like the angels and could manifest in bodily form, pass through walls, etc. at will, and 4) appeared specifically for forty days (spiritually meaning a lifetime) as a revelation that it was He who walked with "his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land", as both God and man, a prophecy confirming the content of the book of Revelation.

And it is rather in His ascension--a separate event--that He showed, as firstfruits, an example of the resurrection, where the flesh of all who are born again of the spirit of God, fades into obscurity, and "the spirit returns to God who gave it" where "flesh and blood cannot inherit."

Well you forget two major important facts that nullify yuor false teaching that Jesus manifested bodies after His resurrection (similar to the JW's)

In the OT it is written that the life of the flesh is in the blood.

Jesus did say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

But when Jesus appeared to teh 12 by walking through the walls, He told them this:

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus poured out HIs blood, is the firstfruits of the resurrection when all mankind is resurrected with glorified physical bodies that are flesh and bone and not blood. Most people ignore these passages when trying to deny Jesus physically ascended into heaven and will physically return as is proven over and over and over again in Scripture.

As tot eh quote of the "spirit returns..." that is true. When a person who is saved dies- their spirit and soul go to be with the Lord and their body goes to hell (sheol/hades/ the grave) At teh rapture, the NT saints are rejoined with their bodies. At Jesus physical return, the tribulation saints are rejoined with their bodies!

Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version

​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

then after the 1000 year kingdom here on earth with Jesus reigning comes the 2nd resurrection to the great white throne for all who are lost:

Revelation 20:11-15

King James Version

​

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And no the forty days do not mean a spiritual lifetime, the spiritual realm has no time!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The problem is, you have referred to the church and the understanding of men--or your own understanding of the scriptures, as the final say.

Well as God gave the church this:

Ephesians 4:11-14

King James Version

​

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

So acting like the Bereans we are to pay heed to godly men.

Outside of being part of a local assembly, a believer is outside of the Grace God gives for maturity.

Even the Apostle Paul submitted HImself to the church in Jerusalem to validate his ministry.

YOu say you get your "higher spiritual meanings" from God and not men, but you get them from a man---Scott A.

What is missing in all that, is that God's word and what is true or not, is under God's providence alone...He hasn't left things under control of corrupt men, nor their tainted doctrinal understanding. Five out of seven churches He named as having somewhat against--even back then! They are not the church He left things to. Or, what, you think He just said "Oh well, let them decide and teach whatever false doctrines they want?" But here you have approved of them, and how did you do that--how could you do that, if not by leaning on your own understanding? (Rhetorical).

And yet Jesus also said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church! The church is not an individaul but a living organism of born again believers who gather under Gods pastor teacher for edification, learning and maturing for ministry.

And you lean on your own understanding for your "higher spiritual meanings". And then say they are fomr god.

I know the Word is directly from god and yes us imperfect people do not have perfect knowledge and church history is replete with many dark things, but the church has still stood victorious for over 2000 years!

God gave the word to believers. Not as a code book that needs special interpreters to tell us the "higher sapiritual meanings".

He gave it for the simple, unlearned and those with child like faith, who take His word sweriously and recognize God needs no editor to tell us what is between the lines!

Meanwhile, your accusations are somewhat correct--there are indeed false teachers and prophets among us. Absolutely! So, why would you not be trying to look outside their influences within the church, and question every doctrine they are teaching--and--look to God to provide what is missing within that corrupt sphere, and know that when He hears in heaven He moves...often unexpectedly--but consistently to His established methods? Think! When Saul corrupted the ruling of Israel--what did God do--rely on scripture-reading experts within to chip away at the good fight of what good men of God should do...or whatever you said about your "reading the bible and growing in grace? Is that what He did?

Well as you do nto know hardly anything aboutr me, this is a very foolish statement on your part. I have been a fierce apologist for the word for over 40 years!

As for your irrelevant example of Israel. He did not need someone to supposedly give "higher spiritual meanings". Israel had the word and a man whom would speak what later became Scripture to remove Saul who violated the written word of God as it was in those days.

REading Scripture does lead one to grow in grace along with fellowship and prayer! It is a 3 legged stool that makes a believer successul in their walk with god. Remove one and the believer falls flat on their spiritual face!

AS King Davbiud write which is the ultimate truth:

104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

BTW, the church is governed by god in a totally different way than Israel. Israel was a theocratic nation (land and ethnos) while the church is not!

 

[bdavidc]

Jesus warned us to be wary of the wolves in sheeps' clothing!

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

There are so many people wandering the halls of Christianity and on this forum who appear to be sheep or shepherds but in fact are ravenous wolves who either knowingly or unknowingly are leading the flocks of God astray.

Think for a moment. How many times have you seen people on these threads who promote "new teaching", "new revelation, " "higher spiritual meaning" or even boldly reinterpreting the Word of God. Do you really think that the Lord in 2000 years of church history could not reveal these "higher truths" to the church and was forced to wait until so and so came along to tell us that God revealed to them what He actually meant to say?

Also do you think that God, who created language and grammar, needs us to edit His Inspired Word and have someone reveal to us that even though God insspired words to be read, He really meant something else?

There isd a way to reasd the bible that is safe and causes one to learn and grow in grace and knowledge. It is known as the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture. Or the golden rule of interpretation:

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

This method recognizes that the bible uses symbols, apocalyptic language, idioms and metaphors. However the bible also defines its symbols and we need not seek to go outside of Scripture itself. the only time we need to study outside of Scripture is to learn the culture and idiomatic use of language the originals used. This will keep us much freer from error than all these new "higher spiritual meanings" that keep popping up. Jesus warned us that in these last days false prophets and teachings would abound!

This warning is badly needed. Any claim of “new revelation,” hidden meaning, or higher spiritual truth must be tested by the written Word of God. “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God” 1 John 4:1.

The only safeguard against deception is to stay with what Scripture actually says in context and refuse to let anyone’s private revelation, spiritual experience, or clever reinterpretation overrule the text. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” Isaiah 8:20.

 

[bdavidc]

It saddens me to read this because 1) it puts a governor on the scriptures that is not God alone but the ways, logic, and reasoning of men, and 2) it hinders the Spirit (which you didn't mention).

But yes--and I wanted so to say Hallelujah to your first three paragraphs--because that much is indeed a problem! But I could not because you then attributed the good warnings against such only to things not tamely and acceptably within the church that those "false teachers" and "prophets" entered into forming much of modern doctrine; and only to what was written on parchment, and not allowing for what is written on hearts as promised.

So the rules adopted by so many, as you have defined them, are a limit that would even restrict God--during the times God has appointed to--not to limit--but literally (as men like to say) pour out His spirit upon all flesh. Do you not see the error in that?

And what of God's appointing of "some prophets" during these times? Do you not know that they also are among the sheep--or even not, as was the case with John the Baptist?

Sadly, your counsel does not include the whole counsel of God.

You are creating a false choice between the Holy Spirit and the written Scriptures. The Spirit inspired the Word, and He does not lead anyone contrary to it.

What God promised to write on the heart was His law, not new doctrines hidden from the apostles. “I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts” Hebrews 8:10. That passage says nothing about private revelations becoming authoritative truth for the church.

The outpouring of the Spirit also does not mean every person claiming revelation must be believed. Scripture commands, “Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge” 1 Corinthians 14:29, and, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God” 1 John 4:1.

No biblical method restricts God. It restricts man from putting his own ideas into God’s mouth. Even if someone claims to be a prophet, his words must be tested by the revelation God has already given. The Spirit of truth does not contradict the Word of truth.

The whole counsel of God never requires us to choose between the Spirit and Scripture. It requires us to reject any spirit that will not submit to what is written.

 

[ScottA]

Well you forget two major important facts that nullify yuor false teaching that Jesus manifested bodies after His resurrection (similar to the JW's)

In the OT it is written that the life of the flesh is in the blood.

Jesus did say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

But when Jesus appeared to teh 12 by walking through the walls, He told them this:

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus poured out HIs blood, is the firstfruits of the resurrection when all mankind is resurrected with glorified physical bodies that are flesh and bone and not blood. Most people ignore these passages when trying to deny Jesus physically ascended into heaven and will physically return as is proven over and over and over again in Scripture.

As tot eh quote of the "spirit returns..." that is true. When a person who is saved dies- their spirit and soul go to be with the Lord and their body goes to hell (sheol/hades/ the grave) At teh rapture, the NT saints are rejoined with their bodies. At Jesus physical return, the tribulation saints are rejoined with their bodies!

Revelation 20:4-5​

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King James Version​

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4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

then after the 1000 year kingdom here on earth with Jesus reigning comes the 2nd resurrection to the great white throne for all who are lost:

Revelation 20:11-15​

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King James Version​

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11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And no the forty days do not mean a spiritual lifetime, the spiritual realm has no time!

So, you think you being half-right, that "flesh and bone" can inherit the kingdom?

Wrong. Half-wrong is wrong.

"Flesh and bone" are the dust elements of this earth of which it is written "the dust will return to the earth as it was" (which I said before), and "the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat." Go figure--"by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established!"

It is established.

 

[ScottA]

Well as God gave the church this:

Ephesians 4:11-14 King James Version​

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

So acting like the Bereans we are to pay heed to godly men.

Outside of being part of a local assembly, a believer is outside of the Grace God gives for maturity.

Even the Apostle Paul submitted HImself to the church in Jerusalem to validate his ministry.

YOu say you get your "higher spiritual meanings" from God and not men, but you get them from a man---Scott A.

Wow! Again, you even quote the passages, then deny them again returning to the ways of mere men.

As for Paul, he submitted himself to the church, but also called Peter out on his church error, not unlike the error that Jesus had called out Peter out on before as well, for thinking as a man. But even Peter knew that “We ought to obey God rather than men."

But apparently, you do not.

Thus, knowing no better, you turn again to be the accuser after the pattern of Satan.