The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Justified

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2025
542
317
63
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
No. I am not.
I am promoting the orthodox Trinity.
To quote you: “Your post and query assume that Jesus is NOT also The Father.

Isaiah 9:6-7 clearly teaches that Jesus IS the Everlasting Father.” (HERE)

When I responded with: “Well, Jesus isn’t also the Father, that’s why he’s the Son.

The Son is absolutely not the Father and never has been, despite what you think Isa. 9:6-7 says.” (HERE)

You appeared to respond to me by quoting Isa. 9:6-7 and stated: “I don't care what you say: GOD says that Jesus IS CALLED the everlasting Father.” (HERE)

By definition, you are promoting Modalism/Oneness theology, not Trinitarianism. Jesus absolutely cannot be the Father since he is the Son. To say that Jesus is the Father, as you are doing, is to believe in a unitarian (single person) view of God. The Father and the Son have always been distinct “persons.”

Then, when I responded with: “However, given the significant amount of NT evidence that the Son is not the Father and never has been, that means the son of Isa. 9:6 being called “Everlasting Father” means something other than how Father is used in the NT, which is exclusively of the first person of the Trinity.” (HERE)

All you respond with is: “You dance, twist and deny deny deny.” (HERE)

But it is you who is dancing, twisting, and denying. As I stated, and you ignored, the name or title Father is reserved only for the first person of the Trinity, as seen throughout the NT, and is why the second person is called the Son. That means your understanding of “Everlasting Father” in Isa. 9:6–that the Son is the Father—is incorrect and must necessarily be meant in a different sense; it does not and cannot be referring to the same one that is called Father in the NT.
 

JimKnox

Member
Jun 27, 2026
123
56
28
Western Idaho
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
1 John 5:7
To quote you: “Your post and query assume that Jesus is NOT also The Father.

Isaiah 9:6-7 clearly teaches that Jesus IS the Everlasting Father.” (HERE)

When I responded with: “Well, Jesus isn’t also the Father, that’s why he’s the Son.

The Son is absolutely not the Father and never has been, despite what you think Isa. 9:6-7 says.” (HERE)

You appeared to respond to me by quoting Isa. 9:6-7 and stated: “I don't care what you say: GOD says that Jesus IS CALLED the everlasting Father.” (HERE)

By definition, you are promoting Modalism/Oneness theology, not Trinitarianism. Jesus absolutely cannot be the Father since he is the Son. To say that Jesus is the Father, as you are doing, is to believe in a unitarian (single person) view of God. The Father and the Son have always been distinct “persons.”

Then, when I responded with: “However, given the significant amount of NT evidence that the Son is not the Father and never has been, that means the son of Isa. 9:6 being called “Everlasting Father” means something other than how Father is used in the NT, which is exclusively of the first person of the Trinity.” (HERE)

All you respond with is: “You dance, twist and deny deny deny.” (HERE)

But it is you who is dancing, twisting, and denying. As I stated, and you ignored, the name or title Father is reserved only for the first person of the Trinity, as seen throughout the NT, and is why the second person is called the Son. That means your understanding of “Everlasting Father” in Isa. 9:6–that the Son is the Father—is incorrect and must necessarily be meant in a different sense; it does not and cannot be referring to the same one that is called Father in the NT.
 

JimKnox

Member
Jun 27, 2026
123
56
28
Western Idaho
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
How so, exactly? Simply making claims like that is not at all helpful. It literally communicates nothing. You have to show how they connect.


Then prove it. Actually address what I’ve said without making vague claims.
There is nothing "vague" about two of the clearest declarations on the Triune Godhead in all of Scripture.

I refuse to be goaded into a useless debate with you.

If you think Scripture "literally communicates nothing" then you need more help than I can give you.

Buh-bye.
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
11,023
7,356
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
“7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. "
Matthew 7:7-14 KJV

“19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. ”
John 5:19-40 KJV

“25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. ”
John 16:25-28 KJV




I believe we are looking at this from a wrong perspective. The answer isn't one or the other. It isn't, oh we must pray to the Father, or no, we must pray to the Son. It isn't either or, it's both. We are forgetting the essential role and ministry of Christ as our High Priest. He is our Mediator. Without Him we can do nothing. He came as the Father's representative. We approach Christ directly for salvation, He intercedes on our behalf through the application of His precious blood saying before the heavenly universe and His Father, "is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"
It is true that Jesus came to reestablish man's relationship with His Father, but He Himself isn't going to turn anyone away if we approach Him. He hears our cry and our yearning for righteousness and truth every bit as much as the Father, and though our prayer and our needs may be presented with awkward stammering lips and uncertain grammar, our High Priest presents it in the purity and beauty of holiness like the incense of old.
when Jesus prayed he also only ever prayed to the Father.
Ummm, who else would He pray to?
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
11,023
7,356
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
I think it might be the opposite.

Self-interpretation of Scripture without paying heed to good teachers or submitting to any authority seems to lead to the creation of heresies.
I tend to agree to a certain extent, but would suggest that scripture itself declares that we find wisdom and understanding, not in authority so much as in many counsellors. A group of people studying the scriptures can hold each other accountable, and by so doing come to an understanding of truth, Jesus saying, there am I in their midst.
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
2,006
542
113
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Scripture is clear:
Son, Everlasting Father, The mighty GOD, Wonderful, Counselor.
Same same same.
The Great Three in One.
Only the KJV says "The mighty God", most modern translations say just "Mighty God". The Septuagint (used by Jesus and the Jews during Jesus' ministry) says:

Isaiah 9:6 Brenton (Septuagint)
(6) For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.​

The Scripture is only clear if you search deeply enough! Similarly Paul quoted Psalm 40:6 in Hebrews 10:5:

Hebrews 10:5 KJV
(5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:​
Psalms 40:6 KJV
(6) Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.​
Psalms 40:6 Brenton (Septuagint)
(6) Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.​

The "mine ears hast thou opened" is a translation from a corrupted Hebrew manuscript, a deliberate deception by the Masoretes during the 7th to 10th centuries AD, which they changed to say "ears you dug for me" by using the wrong vowels, trying to hide the reference to Jesus.
 

Justified

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2025
542
317
63
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
There is nothing "vague" about two of the clearest declarations on the Triune Godhead in all of Scripture.
“Isaiah 9:6-7
1 John 5:7-8
=
Trinity.”

That is very vague. What version of 1 John 5:7-8 are you referring to? The KJV? And as I pointed out several times, you keep using Isa. 9:6 to say that Jesus is the Father, which is a unitarian view of God, not Trinitarian. All you have done is avoid addressing the problem, even if only to provide clarity on what you think Isa. 9:6 says.

Isa. 9:6-7 is speaking only of the Son, as Messiah.

I refuse to be goaded into a useless debate with you.
I find that discussion about the nature of God to be one of the most important discussions.

If you think Scripture "literally communicates nothing" then you need more help than I can give you.
That isn’t what I said. Anyone can quote scripture or make a reference to it, but without explaining what they think it is saying, that person hasn’t communicated anything. It seems as though we both believe Isa. 9:6 is saying something different, so your refusal to explain precisely what it does say and instead just keep posting the verse communicates nothing.
 

JimKnox

Member
Jun 27, 2026
123
56
28
Western Idaho
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Only the KJV says "The mighty God", most modern translations say just "Mighty God". The Septuagint (used by Jesus and the Jews during Jesus' ministry) says:

Isaiah 9:6 Brenton (Septuagint)
(6) For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.​

The Scripture is only clear if you search deeply enough! Similarly Paul quoted Psalm 40:6 in Hebrews 10:5:

Hebrews 10:5 KJV
(5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:​
Psalms 40:6 KJV
(6) Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.​
Psalms 40:6 Brenton (Septuagint)
(6) Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.​

The "mine ears hast thou opened" is a translation from a corrupted Hebrew manuscript, a deliberate deception by the Masoretes during the 7th to 10th centuries AD, which they changed to say "ears you dug for me" by using the wrong vowels, trying to hide the reference to Jesus.
Any appeal to the fraudulent MSS (LXX) pretty much disqualifies any argument based upon it.
Even the Translators of the AV1611 (all 47 of them) knew this. Why don't you?