Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Davy]

....

The fourth beast in this verse comes right after the 3rd beast - which is Greece. So, does that tell you the 4th beast must be Rome? Does satan come out of Rome? And the timing - when did Rome come to power and how long did Rome last (pagan Rome specifically)? Do the characteristics identify with pagan Rome? But Daniel tells us this 4th beast will be very different than the other beasts - different than Babylon, Medes-Persia, and Greece.... how so? Because we will see 10 horns and another little horn coming out of it.... this is just the INTRODUCTION TO THIS 4TH BEAST AND THE HORNS.

Allowing that idea of a FOURTH BEAST to throw ya?

In the Daniel 2 Chapter, it reveals FIVE separate pieces to the beast statue. The final piece, the feet of ten toes of iron mixed with clay, is to involve ALL... the previous beasts put together when they fall by the Stone (Jesus Christ) which smites it upon its feet, and the whole comes tumbling down, and then God's everlasting Kingdom is then setup upon the earth. You cannot separate that prophecy from the end of this world, nor from the idea of Christ's future coming to end Satan's beast kingdom at the end of this world, and setup His Millennial Kingdom of Revelation 20.

Because of this, some Bible scholars consider that the old Roman empire represented by the "legs of iron", will be re-established again at the end of this world. Then others have taken that idea and applied it to the Catholic Church and the pope in today's Rome, which does not fit. The majority in the Roman Church and the Protestant Church will mostly be equally deceived by Satan as the coming false-Messiah. It just depends on what their pastors have taught, whether men's traditions which are designed to spiritually blind the believer away from understanding Satan coming as the false-Messiah, or for those who are aware whose pastors have shown them as written in God's Word, with Christ Jesus preparing His faithful ones for the future event (like in Mark 13 about being delivered up at the end of this world).


Therefore, you are actually already... way off track of identifying the "little horn" and that final beast kingdom that will be setup for Satan as the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah to Jerusalem to play Christ.

 

[CTK]

Impossible to rightly divide God's written Word and stay in ONLY the Daniel 7 Chapter about the symbolic "little horn", which is about Satan as the final beast king of this present world. Even in Daniel 8 another example of the "little horn" symbol is given which is directly connected to the "abomination of desolation" prophecy that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel in His Olivet discourse signs about the end of this world.

So it's foolishness to try and get the Bible student to stay only in Daniel 7 to define the "little horn".

Well, I think you have made it quite clear how you see things... no problem. But you might consider that Daniel was written specifically for His people and His city. Meaning, this book's most important prophecy is the coming of their Messiah within the early part of the 4th kingdom. It was not written specifically for end time folks ... and perhaps 80 - 90 % of Daniel speaks to the period 606 BC to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, or 3.5 years after the cross.

Therefore, God had given Daniel and His people everything they would need to read, study, interpret the coming of their Messiah and the coming of the little horn. I believe we can move on.

 

[Earburner]

Well, I think you have made it quite clear how you see things... no problem. But you might consider that Daniel was written specifically for His people and His city. Meaning, this book's most important prophecy is the coming of their Messiah within the early part of the 4th kingdom. It was not written specifically for end time folks ... and perhaps 80 - 90 % of Daniel speaks to the period 606 BC to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, or 3.5 years after the cross.

Therefore, God had given Daniel and His people everything they would need to read, study, interpret the coming of their Messiah and the coming of the little horn. I believe we can move on.

I agree 100%
God's foretelling of His Prophecies is not suddenly revealed from out of a fog bank of religious theories, fabricated by the will of man. God in His Eternity sees the past, present and future all at the same time.
Isa.55:8-9.

Therefore when He is speaking of future events taking place on the earth, He is always living among those events, knowing full well when the time of their passing shall be.
The best that we can do with His prophecies, is compare what He has futuristically said through His OC Prophets and the NC Apostles. That which is past, is revealed to us by the work of those who have "reported" the history of those events.
Two marvelous works of "reporting" is the historical books of 1&2 Maccabees and the works of Flavius Josephus.
Of course today, because "knowledge has increased" ever since the 1800s, "reporting" events today is now almost instantaneous as they happen!!

So then, it's not only about what HAS taken place in the Past, or that which SHALL take place in the Future, but rather it is also about that which IS taking place at this very moment, in the Present.

For example, in all actuality, we ALL who are living right now, are the witnesses of the two separate events of Rev. 9:1-12 and 9:13-21.
The first prophetic event speaks of "stings in their tails", whereby men are not allowed to die, due to our advanced medical technology.
The second prophetic event speaks of 1/3 of men being slain in one day in the Euphrates region. I believe we all know the extreme precision and devastation that weaponry has advanced to in the past 76 +/- years.
One might say that we are now living in the prophetic moment of God's words of Rev. 9:1-21 being fulfilled.

 

[Davy]

Well, I think you have made it quite clear how you see things... no problem. But you might consider that Daniel was written specifically for His people and His city.

You should not say that to me, because what I explained is indeed specifically about events to occur in Jerusalem and to Daniel's people, both scattered Israel, and today's nation of Israel in the holy land. Thus your above statement does not fit, and is just your attempt at adding ideas to what I said that I never spoke of.

Meaning, this book's most important prophecy is the coming of their Messiah within the early part of the 4th kingdom. It was not written specifically for end time folks ... and perhaps 80 - 90 % of Daniel speaks to the period 606 BC to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, or 3.5 years after the cross.

The other Books that give more details about that 70 weeks prophecy events in Daniel 7 through 12 reveal that the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 involving the "abomination of desolation" IS... specific to the very end of this world in the generation of Christ's future 2nd coming to gather His Church.

So all your statements above are doing is just trying to 'affirm' that Daniel Scripture means something else, when that something else is simply from men's traditions, and not what the actual Bible Scriptures reveal. What those you listen to have taught you to do is to like scrap much of Christ's Book of Revelation which is directly relevant to those events in Daniel about the very end of this world. This is why you began this conversation with wanting me to stay only in the Daniel 7 chapter to define the "little horn." So who taught you to do that? That's now how our Heavenly Father showed how to study His Word.

 

[covenantee]

You should not say that to me, because what I explained is indeed specifically about events to occur in Jerusalem and to Daniel's people, both scattered Israel, and today's nation of Israel in the holy land. Thus your above statement does not fit, and is just your attempt at adding ideas to what I said that I never spoke of.



The other Books that give more details about that 70 weeks prophecy events in Daniel 7 through 12 reveal that the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 involving the "abomination of desolation" IS... specific to the very end of this world in the generation of Christ's future 2nd coming to gather His Church.

So all your statements above are doing is just trying to 'affirm' that Daniel Scripture means something else, when that something else is simply from men's traditions, and not what the actual Bible Scriptures reveal. What those you listen to have taught you to do is to like scrap much of Christ's Book of Revelation which is directly relevant to those events in Daniel about the very end of this world. This is why you began this conversation with wanting me to stay only in the Daniel 7 chapter to define the "little horn." So who taught you to do that? That's now how our Heavenly Father showed how to study His Word.

Daniel 9:24 begins with the declaration, "Seventy weeks are determined..."

That means all seventy, including the seventieth.

But your seventieth week is decapitated, orphaned, unfulfilled, and undetermined.

It is therefore an artificial contrivance which has nothing to do with Daniel's prophecy.

 

[CTK]

You should not say that to me, because what I explained is indeed specifically about events to occur in Jerusalem and to Daniel's people, both scattered Israel, and today's nation of Israel in the holy land. Thus your above statement does not fit, and is just your attempt at adding ideas to what I said that I never spoke of.



The other Books that give more details about that 70 weeks prophecy events in Daniel 7 through 12 reveal that the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 involving the "abomination of desolation" IS... specific to the very end of this world in the generation of Christ's future 2nd coming to gather His Church.

So all your statements above are doing is just trying to 'affirm' that Daniel Scripture means something else, when that something else is simply from men's traditions, and not what the actual Bible Scriptures reveal. What those you listen to have taught you to do is to like scrap much of Christ's Book of Revelation which is directly relevant to those events in Daniel about the very end of this world. This is why you began this conversation with wanting me to stay only in the Daniel 7 chapter to define the "little horn." So who taught you to do that? That's now how our Heavenly Father showed how to study His Word.

I don't mind discussing the many interpretations that can be found throughout the Christian community. And I can assure you there is absolutely no consensus of opinion on MOST of Daniel - especially among the scholars - old and new. Further, I have read and studied the works of those scholars that have produced what might be called "today's accepted interpretations," even though there are more than one "accepted interpretation" among them. And I am very comfortable with my studies, that certainly took all of their thoughts into consideration, but may have come away with very different final interpretations. I am good with that and can support them. It certainly does not mean you or anyone within or without this forum has to agree or accept them - everyone is entitiled to their views and opinions. However, what is not something I care to see and experience is the kind of behavior that you often hand out to many ... You simply do not know how to play nice.... and your tongue is not appreciated. Consequently, after this post I will place you inn the IGNORE FILE... best wishes.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 9:24 begins with the declaration, "Seventy weeks are determined..."

That means all seventy, including the seventieth.

Basically, what you are saying is that even though the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is given at one specific time (Daniel's days), then it must remain in a state of continuation until completed. Well, that is YOUR RULE, not God's rule in His Word. And one of the strongest Bible and prophetic proofs is the 2,000 years+ gap between Christ's 1st coming to die on the cross, and His still future 2nd coming to literally reign over all nations on earth.

So you'll need to be more Scripture/historical oriented if you want to discuss the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9.

 

[Davy]

I don't mind discussing the many interpretations that can be found throughout the Christian community.

And I don't mind revealing to my Christian brethren when they have strayed too far from The Word of God in their thinking because of falseness taught in many so-called churches today.

And I can assure you there is absolutely no consensus of opinion on MOST of Daniel - especially among the scholars - old and new.

Who cares how large a consensus of opinion by scholars exist. Don't you recall what God said through His prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 2:22?

Did you not know that today there are so-called New Testament Bible scholars that are not even Christians, and those that are have no problem with that? Just using scientific method is not enough to understand God's Word, much less translate it to English. Help from The Holy Spirit is required, and that is for the believing Christian who has declared their Faith on Jesus Christ and been baptized in His Name.

Looks like you deserve to be back on my IGNORE LIST also, since you have declared that men's doctrines ("consensus of opinion") is more important to you than what God's written Word actually says in simplicity.

 

[covenantee]

Basically, what you are saying is that even though the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is given at one specific time (Daniel's days), then it must remain in a state of continuation until completed. Well, that is YOUR RULE, not God's rule in His Word. And one of the strongest Bible and prophetic proofs is the 2,000 years+ gap between Christ's 1st coming to die on the cross, and His still future 2nd coming to literally reign over all nations on earth.

So you'll need to be more Scripture/historical oriented if you want to discuss the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9.

What I'm saying is what Daniel said: "Seventy weeks are determined..." Do you agree that that is what Daniel said?

But your seventieth week is not determined. It is decapitated, orphaned, unfulfilled, and undetermined.

Until such time as it is fulfilled and thus determined, your version of Daniel's prophecy is illegitimate.

Hint: Daniel's seventieth week was fulfilled by Messiah at Calvary.

Thus your seventieth week is, and will evermore be, illegitimate.

It is naught but a product of the modernist revisionist futurist dispensational imagination.

 

[Davy]

What I'm saying is what Daniel said: "Seventy weeks are determined..." Do you agree that that is what Daniel said?

But your seventieth week is not determined. It is decapitated, orphaned, unfulfilled, and undetermined.

You'll have to use your brain more than that instead of using such a silly idea as above. That ain't even logical enough to respond to.

Until such time as it is fulfilled and thus determined, your version of Daniel's prophecy is illegitimate.

Hint: Daniel's seventieth week was fulfilled by Messiah at Calvary.

Thus your seventieth week is, and will evermore be, illegitimate.

It is naught but a product of the modernist revisionist futurist dispensational imagination.

Ah... trying to categorize me into the Futurist/Dispensationalist crowd? There again, you show your ignorance, because the Premillennial idea existed long, long... before Futurism and John Nelson Darby's Dispensationalism. Furthermore, I do not believe in a Pre-trib Rapture, which are those you are actually pointing to. Jesus returns AFTER the trib to gather His saints, like He said. So your attempt to categorize me has your brain lock all messed up. That's what you get for heeding men's doctrines instead of staying in the actual written Word of God.

 

[Earburner]

You should not say that to me, because what I explained is indeed specifically about events to occur in Jerusalem and to Daniel's people, both scattered Israel, and today's nation of Israel in the holy land. Thus your above statement does not fit, and is just your attempt at adding ideas to what I said that I never spoke of.



The other Books that give more details about that 70 weeks prophecy events in Daniel 7 through 12 reveal that the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 involving the "abomination of desolation" IS... specific to the very end of this world in the generation of Christ's future 2nd coming to gather His Church.

So all your statements above are doing is just trying to 'affirm' that Daniel Scripture means something else, when that something else is simply from men's traditions, and not what the actual Bible Scriptures reveal. What those you listen to have taught you to do is to like scrap much of Christ's Book of Revelation which is directly relevant to those events in Daniel about the very end of this world. This is why you began this conversation with wanting me to stay only in the Daniel 7 chapter to define the "little horn." So who taught you to do that? That's now how our Heavenly Father showed how to study His Word.

Don't born again Christians yet know that in type and anti-type, the words "the abomination that MAKETH desolate" (Dan. 11:31) was first fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanese. That abomination, in approx.169 BC., was the  TYPE, but Jesus Himself is the ANTI-TYPE.
In other words, when Jesus spoke of Dan. 11:31, he was speaking of Himself as being "the abomination that maketh desolate".

What is an antitype in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

What is an antitype in the Bible? What are some of the antitypes in the Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can find the description of that ONE abomination, that WAS committed against God, in KJV Prov. 6:16-17.
Of the six ("yea seven") abominations that are listed there, which abomination offended God the Father in the extreme?
Clue: it's found in verse 17.
The shedding of Christ's innocent blood is NOT about an abomination that offends Israel, but rather God the Father Himself.
And the irony of it all, it was Israel that caused Jesus to be crucified. Mat. 27:22-25.

 

[covenantee]

You'll have to use your brain more than that instead of using such a silly idea as above. That ain't even logical enough to respond to.

Tell Daniel his prophecy was a silly idea.

Ah... trying to categorize me into the Futurist/Dispensationalist crowd? There again, you show your ignorance, because the Premillennial idea existed long, long... before Futurism and John Nelson Darby's Dispensationalism.

Historic premil has never believed in an undetermined 70th week.

Only dispen premil has.

That's the premil that you subscribe to.

 

[Davy]

Don't born again Christians yet know that in type and anti-type, the words "the abomination that MAKETH desolate" (Dan. 11:31) was first fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanese. That abomination, in approx.169 BC., was the  TYPE, but Jesus Himself is the ANTI-TYPE.
In other words, when Jesus spoke of Dan. 11:31, he was speaking of Himself as being "the abomination that maketh desolate".

No, Jesus was DEFINITELY NOT speaking of Himself as the "abomination of desolation". That idea you've picked up is straight from the devil.

Antiochus did not 'completely' fulfill the "vile person" prophecy in Daniel 11 and Daniel 9:27, nor the "little horn" prophecy of Daniel 8:9-14, etc. Antiochus IV took Jerusalem using an ARMY. The actual "vile person" prophecy says he will take Jerusalem using PEACE and by FLATTERIES...

Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV

And yet another sign of you following your Ellen White buddies instead of actually 'reading'... what the Daniel Scriptures says as written, is that above title for that one who places the "abomination of desolation" which Jesus WARNED about for the END. Notice that coming false one is called "a vile person", and by him the daily sacrifice will be taken away and the abomination IDOL setup. And to think that those who have brainwashed you got you to claim that is LORD JESUS as that "vile person"! That just shows how confused you are on men's doctrines.

 

[Davy]

Tell Daniel his prophecy was a silly idea.

No, Daniel was blessed and shown prophecy about the END of this world with the false-Messiah coming to setup the "abomination of desolation".

It's YOUR "determination" idea applied to the 70th week of Daniel 9 that is silly.

 

[covenantee]

No, Daniel was blessed and shown prophecy about the END of this world with the false-Messiah coming to setup the "abomination of desolation".

It's YOUR "determination" idea applied to the 70th week of Daniel 9 that is silly.

Daniel says "determined".
You say "silly".
Whom to believe?
1. You
or
2. Daniel
Need a hint?

 

[Davy]

Daniel says "determined".
You say "silly".
Whom to believe?
1. You
or
2. Daniel
Need a hint?

That word in the Hebrew simply means 'decreed'. But YOUR IDEA of what "determined" means is DIFFERENT than the Daniel Scripture, because YOU ADDED YOUR OWN IDEA INTO THE SCRIPTURE THAT IS NOT WRITTEN, SO WHAT'S THAT?

YOUR FALSE IDEA is that the whole symbolic 70 weeks MUST be CONTINUOUS, which no where in that Daniel 9 Scripture says that!!! That is YOUR SUPPOSITION you picked up from the Ellen White crowd.

So when I SHOWED YOU THE HUGE GAP between Lord Jesus' 1st coming, and His still future 2nd coming, you should have used your common sense to understand Christ's advents are directly TIED TO THAT SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY!

But NO, you'd rather be brainwashed by DEVILS and let them do your thinking for you instead.

 

[Earburner]

No, Jesus was DEFINITELY NOT speaking of Himself as the "abomination of desolation". That idea you've picked up is straight from the devil.

Antiochus did not 'completely' fulfill the "vile person" prophecy

You have alot of biblical history to catch up on. Not because you can't know it, but rather you have been misinformed by erroneous teaching.

First of all, KJV Zech. 4:14 has been fulfilled. The "Two anointed ones" (witnesses) were fulfilled in John the Baptist and Jesus.
You, as well as most Premil Christians, have not understood that the 70th week of 7 years, prophesied in KJV Dan. 9:24, was completely fulfilled by the two witnesses of John the Baptist and Jesus Himself.
The first 3.5 years of that prophetic 70th week was 6 mos. for John's ministry, and then 3.0 years for Jesus' ministry, while He was in mortal flesh. Then after Jesus resurrection and ascension, the remainder of that 70th week of 3.5 years (totalling 7 yrs.) was fulfilled by Jesus helping the early church through His Holy Spirit. Paul the Apostle gave testimony that it was so, when Jesus spoke to him on the road to Damascus, saying to him: "why persecutest thou me?" Acts 9:4.
You have NOT listened to or heard what the words: "the abomination that MAKETH desolate" [destroyed and made void of God] are saying.
In "ANTI-TYPE" it's the abomination of Prov. 6:17, the shedding of Christ's Innocent Blood that offends God so much so, that in 70 AD. he brings forth the complete destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, and will never allow it to be rebuilt again, even to the consummation (the end of all things). KJV Dan. 9:27.

Secondly:
It is quite evident that you have not studied the history of 1&2 Maccabees, which describes everything that one could know about that "little horn", who was in " TYPE", the man Antiochus IV Epiphanese.
If you DID, then you would know why the Jews still celebrate Hanukkah today.

It was during "the latter time of their kingdom" of the 3rd beast, (KJV Dan. 8:23)
of which was the Grecian Empire of Alex the Great. After his death, the empire was split up into four kingdoms by Alex's four Generals. One of those four kingdoms was the Seleucid kingdom. Out of it came forth a "little horn", whose name was Antiochus IV Epiphanese.

And so also, you should read "Antiquities of the Jews" by Flavius Josephus, who was an eyewitness to the historic siege and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD.
He speaks about the history of Antiochus IV Epiphanese, when he was a ruler of the Seleucid kingdom, which was one of the four kingdoms that developed out of the 3rd Beast, which was the Grecian Empire of Alex the Great.

 

[covenantee]

That word in the Hebrew simply means 'decreed'. But YOUR IDEA of what "determined" means is DIFFERENT than the Daniel Scripture, because YOU ADDED YOUR OWN IDEA INTO THE SCRIPTURE THAT IS NOT WRITTEN, SO WHAT'S THAT?

YOUR FALSE IDEA is that the whole symbolic 70 weeks MUST be CONTINUOUS, which no where in that Daniel 9 Scripture says that!!! That is YOUR SUPPOSITION you picked up from the Ellen White crowd.

So when I SHOWED YOU THE HUGE GAP between Lord Jesus' 1st coming, and His still future 2nd coming, you should have used your common sense to understand Christ's advents are directly TIED TO THAT SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY!

But NO, you'd rather be brainwashed by DEVILS and let them do your thinking for you instead.

Here's the word that you're terrified to cite: chathak
Here are its meanings:
Lexical Summary: 1. (properly) to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: A primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree -- determine.

Its primary, i.e. proper, meaning is to cut off.

Thus Daniel declares "Seventy weeks are cut off..."

But by your chronology, with your 70th week still undetermined, your claim effectively is "Sixty-nine weeks are cut off..."

Whom to believe?
1. You: "Sixty-nine weeks are cut off..."
or
2. Daniel: "Seventy weeks are cut off..."
Need a(nother) hint?

And no, they're not symbolic 70 weeks. They are as literal as literal can be.

What is symbolic is your decapitated, orphaned, unfulfilled, undetermined 70th week. It's a figment of the dispensational futurist modernist revisionist imagination.

And your attempted contortion of Christ the Covenant Confirmer into your hallucinogenic antichrist is the epitome of a blasphemous abomination of desecration.

It originates in the pit of hell.

 

[Davy]

Here's the word that you're terrified to cite: chathak
....

You've already been told the meaning, but you still reject it.

 

[Davy]

You have alot of biblical history to catch up on. Not because you can't know it, but rather you have been misinformed by erroneous teaching.

....

I'm certain you WISH I have been misinformed, otherwise what I've shown from the Daniel Scripture would be so embarrassing to you to make you want to continue to dig yourself out of the hole you've made.


Antiochus IV TOOK JERUSALEM WITH AN ARMY (around 165 B.C.).


The prophesied "vile person" of Daniel 11 that places the "abomination of desolation" at the END of this world comes in PEACEFULLY, NOT CONQUERING USING AN ARMY LIKE ANTIOCHUS IV DID. I ALREADY SHOWED THIS.

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
KJV

That the "vile person" comes to power PEACEABLY and by FLATTERIES, and Antiochus did not, that reveals a DUAL FULFILLMENT of the prophecy with Antiochus not fulfilling all its parameters; THUS when Jesus quoted the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel in His Olivet discourse it means He was POINTING TO THE VERY END OF THIS WORLD IN THE GENERATION OF HIS FUTURE 2ND COMING. And that means a FINAL fulfillment. So you are way behind in that prophecy and haven't figured out yet those you are listening to are trying to prevent you from seeing it.