Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Davy]

....

The fourth beast in this verse comes right after the 3rd beast - which is Greece. So, does that tell you the 4th beast must be Rome? Does satan come out of Rome? And the timing - when did Rome come to power and how long did Rome last (pagan Rome specifically)? Do the characteristics identify with pagan Rome? But Daniel tells us this 4th beast will be very different than the other beasts - different than Babylon, Medes-Persia, and Greece.... how so? Because we will see 10 horns and another little horn coming out of it.... this is just the INTRODUCTION TO THIS 4TH BEAST AND THE HORNS.

Allowing that idea of a FOURTH BEAST to throw ya?

In the Daniel 2 Chapter, it reveals FIVE separate pieces to the beast statue. The final piece, the feet of ten toes of iron mixed with clay, is to involve ALL... the previous beasts put together when they fall by the Stone (Jesus Christ) which smites it upon its feet, and the whole comes tumbling down, and then God's everlasting Kingdom is then setup upon the earth. You cannot separate that prophecy from the end of this world, nor from the idea of Christ's future coming to end Satan's beast kingdom at the end of this world, and setup His Millennial Kingdom of Revelation 20.

Because of this, some Bible scholars consider that the old Roman empire represented by the "legs of iron", will be re-established again at the end of this world. Then others have taken that idea and applied it to the Catholic Church and the pope in today's Rome, which does not fit. The majority in the Roman Church and the Protestant Church will mostly be equally deceived by Satan as the coming false-Messiah. It just depends on what their pastors have taught, whether men's traditions which are designed to spiritually blind the believer away from understanding Satan coming as the false-Messiah, or for those who are aware whose pastors have shown them as written in God's Word, with Christ Jesus preparing His faithful ones for the future event (like in Mark 13 about being delivered up at the end of this world).


Therefore, you are actually already... way off track of identifying the "little horn" and that final beast kingdom that will be setup for Satan as the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah to Jerusalem to play Christ.

 

[CTK]

Impossible to rightly divide God's written Word and stay in ONLY the Daniel 7 Chapter about the symbolic "little horn", which is about Satan as the final beast king of this present world. Even in Daniel 8 another example of the "little horn" symbol is given which is directly connected to the "abomination of desolation" prophecy that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel in His Olivet discourse signs about the end of this world.

So it's foolishness to try and get the Bible student to stay only in Daniel 7 to define the "little horn".

Well, I think you have made it quite clear how you see things... no problem. But you might consider that Daniel was written specifically for His people and His city. Meaning, this book's most important prophecy is the coming of their Messiah within the early part of the 4th kingdom. It was not written specifically for end time folks ... and perhaps 80 - 90 % of Daniel speaks to the period 606 BC to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, or 3.5 years after the cross.

Therefore, God had given Daniel and His people everything they would need to read, study, interpret the coming of their Messiah and the coming of the little horn. I believe we can move on.

 

[Earburner]

Well, I think you have made it quite clear how you see things... no problem. But you might consider that Daniel was written specifically for His people and His city. Meaning, this book's most important prophecy is the coming of their Messiah within the early part of the 4th kingdom. It was not written specifically for end time folks ... and perhaps 80 - 90 % of Daniel speaks to the period 606 BC to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, or 3.5 years after the cross.

Therefore, God had given Daniel and His people everything they would need to read, study, interpret the coming of their Messiah and the coming of the little horn. I believe we can move on.

I agree 100%
God's foretelling of His Prophecies is not suddenly revealed from out of a fog bank of religious theories, fabricated by the will of man. God in His Eternity sees the past, present and future all at the same time.
Isa.55:8-9.

Therefore when He is speaking of future events taking place on the earth, He is always living among those events, knowing full well when the time of their passing shall be.
The best that we can do with His prophecies, is compare what He has futuristically said through His OC Prophets and the NC Apostles. That which is past, is revealed to us by the work of those who have "reported" the history of those events.
Two marvelous works of "reporting" is the historical books of 1&2 Maccabees and the works of Flavius Josephus.
Of course today, because "knowledge has increased" ever since the 1800s, "reporting" events today is now almost instantaneous as they happen!!

So then, it's not only about what HAS taken place in the Past, or that which SHALL take place in the Future, but rather it is also about that which IS taking place at this very moment, in the Present.

For example, in all actuality, we ALL who are living right now, are the witnesses of the two separate events of Rev. 9:1-12 and 9:13-21.
The first prophetic event speaks of "stings in their tails", whereby men are not allowed to die, due to our advanced medical technology.
The second prophetic event speaks of 1/3 of men being slain in one day in the Euphrates region. I believe we all know the extreme precision and devastation that weaponry has advanced to in the past 76 +/- years.
One might say that we are now living in the prophetic moment of God's words of Rev. 9:1-21 being fulfilled.

 

[Davy]

Well, I think you have made it quite clear how you see things... no problem. But you might consider that Daniel was written specifically for His people and His city.

You should not say that to me, because what I explained is indeed specifically about events to occur in Jerusalem and to Daniel's people, both scattered Israel, and today's nation of Israel in the holy land. Thus your above statement does not fit, and is just your attempt at adding ideas to what I said that I never spoke of.

Meaning, this book's most important prophecy is the coming of their Messiah within the early part of the 4th kingdom. It was not written specifically for end time folks ... and perhaps 80 - 90 % of Daniel speaks to the period 606 BC to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy, or 3.5 years after the cross.

The other Books that give more details about that 70 weeks prophecy events in Daniel 7 through 12 reveal that the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 involving the "abomination of desolation" IS... specific to the very end of this world in the generation of Christ's future 2nd coming to gather His Church.

So all your statements above are doing is just trying to 'affirm' that Daniel Scripture means something else, when that something else is simply from men's traditions, and not what the actual Bible Scriptures reveal. What those you listen to have taught you to do is to like scrap much of Christ's Book of Revelation which is directly relevant to those events in Daniel about the very end of this world. This is why you began this conversation with wanting me to stay only in the Daniel 7 chapter to define the "little horn." So who taught you to do that? That's now how our Heavenly Father showed how to study His Word.

 

[covenantee]

You should not say that to me, because what I explained is indeed specifically about events to occur in Jerusalem and to Daniel's people, both scattered Israel, and today's nation of Israel in the holy land. Thus your above statement does not fit, and is just your attempt at adding ideas to what I said that I never spoke of.



The other Books that give more details about that 70 weeks prophecy events in Daniel 7 through 12 reveal that the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 involving the "abomination of desolation" IS... specific to the very end of this world in the generation of Christ's future 2nd coming to gather His Church.

So all your statements above are doing is just trying to 'affirm' that Daniel Scripture means something else, when that something else is simply from men's traditions, and not what the actual Bible Scriptures reveal. What those you listen to have taught you to do is to like scrap much of Christ's Book of Revelation which is directly relevant to those events in Daniel about the very end of this world. This is why you began this conversation with wanting me to stay only in the Daniel 7 chapter to define the "little horn." So who taught you to do that? That's now how our Heavenly Father showed how to study His Word.

Daniel 9:24 begins with the declaration, "Seventy weeks are determined..."

That means all seventy, including the seventieth.

But your seventieth week is decapitated, orphaned, unfulfilled, and undetermined.

It is therefore an artificial contrivance which has nothing to do with Daniel's prophecy.

 

[CTK]

You should not say that to me, because what I explained is indeed specifically about events to occur in Jerusalem and to Daniel's people, both scattered Israel, and today's nation of Israel in the holy land. Thus your above statement does not fit, and is just your attempt at adding ideas to what I said that I never spoke of.



The other Books that give more details about that 70 weeks prophecy events in Daniel 7 through 12 reveal that the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 involving the "abomination of desolation" IS... specific to the very end of this world in the generation of Christ's future 2nd coming to gather His Church.

So all your statements above are doing is just trying to 'affirm' that Daniel Scripture means something else, when that something else is simply from men's traditions, and not what the actual Bible Scriptures reveal. What those you listen to have taught you to do is to like scrap much of Christ's Book of Revelation which is directly relevant to those events in Daniel about the very end of this world. This is why you began this conversation with wanting me to stay only in the Daniel 7 chapter to define the "little horn." So who taught you to do that? That's now how our Heavenly Father showed how to study His Word.

I don't mind discussing the many interpretations that can be found throughout the Christian community. And I can assure you there is absolutely no consensus of opinion on MOST of Daniel - especially among the scholars - old and new. Further, I have read and studied the works of those scholars that have produced what might be called "today's accepted interpretations," even though there are more than one "accepted interpretation" among them. And I am very comfortable with my studies, that certainly took all of their thoughts into consideration, but may have come away with very different final interpretations. I am good with that and can support them. It certainly does not mean you or anyone within or without this forum has to agree or accept them - everyone is entitiled to their views and opinions. However, what is not something I care to see and experience is the kind of behavior that you often hand out to many ... You simply do not know how to play nice.... and your tongue is not appreciated. Consequently, after this post I will place you inn the IGNORE FILE... best wishes.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 9:24 begins with the declaration, "Seventy weeks are determined..."

That means all seventy, including the seventieth.

Basically, what you are saying is that even though the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is given at one specific time (Daniel's days), then it must remain in a state of continuation until completed. Well, that is YOUR RULE, not God's rule in His Word. And one of the strongest Bible and prophetic proofs is the 2,000 years+ gap between Christ's 1st coming to die on the cross, and His still future 2nd coming to literally reign over all nations on earth.

So you'll need to be more Scripture/historical oriented if you want to discuss the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9.

 

[Davy]

I don't mind discussing the many interpretations that can be found throughout the Christian community.

And I don't mind revealing to my Christian brethren when they have strayed too far from The Word of God in their thinking because of falseness taught in many so-called churches today.

And I can assure you there is absolutely no consensus of opinion on MOST of Daniel - especially among the scholars - old and new.

Who cares how large a consensus of opinion by scholars exist. Don't you recall what God said through His prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 2:22?

Did you not know that today there are so-called New Testament Bible scholars that are not even Christians, and those that are have no problem with that? Just using scientific method is not enough to understand God's Word, much less translate it to English. Help from The Holy Spirit is required, and that is for the believing Christian who has declared their Faith on Jesus Christ and been baptized in His Name.

Looks like you deserve to be back on my IGNORE LIST also, since you have declared that men's doctrines ("consensus of opinion") is more important to you than what God's written Word actually says in simplicity.