Daniel 9:25 - the messiah the prince

[TribulationSigns]

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into His body of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in His body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Read the context, genius.

John 2:13-21

• "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
• And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
• And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
• And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
• And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
• Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
• Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
• Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
• But he spake of the temple of his body.

The plain understanding of Christ's words had the Jews thinking that Christ was talking about the literal/Physical Temple. After all, He had just thrown the buyers and sellers out of it, and consequently the Jews then asked him, "what sign do you show us of your authority to do so, seeing that you did these things?" Sure, the plain, grammatical, and historical understanding of His words would lead any sensible person to think the literal Temple is what Christ spoke of. But Christ's thoughts are not man's thoughts, so "prophetically," He was speaking of the prophecy that THEY would destroy the Sanctuary of the Holy Temple (His body) and he would rebuild it in three days. So when you say that it seems obvious that when the literal, straightforward meaning is logical and clear, we should never look for hidden, allegorical, or forced meanings, that doesn't agree with God's thoughts on the matter.

Proverbs 25:2

• "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

That's why Christ spoke in parables, that seeing me would not see, and hearing, men would not hear. We have to search it out, for that is the honor of Kings and Priests unto God. It is written, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2nd Timothy 2:15). That's not lip service, that's God's command to us. It's not what we personally think or privately interpret; it's what God says.

So what is your point about verse you took out of context?

 

[The Light]

But what about what I asked regarding the stars cast down like "untimely figs" mentioned on the 6th Seal?

Apparently, you missed the part where I said you did not ask me this question before.

And you seem to have missed the part where I asked you if you were talking about the "stars falling from heaven" I'll repost for you.

I don't see this question being asked to me. Maybe you thought you posted it and forgot to hit send.

Let's talk in specifics so I understand your question. Are you asking about the stars that fall from heaven?

What do you want to know about the stars falling from heaven? There is war in heaven that began when the abomination of desolation is set up as the woman flees to her place of protection when the great tribulation begins. The stars from heaven which are the angels in heaven are cast to the earth like an untimely fig in a storm.

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Daniel also talks about this.

Revelation 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Isaiah also talks about this falling of the angels before the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

If you had actually paid attention... to what Jesus said about watching those Signs He gave in His Olivet discourse, then you'd have understood also gave a warning of those who don't watch won't know in what hour the thief comes. Per Rev.16:15 Jesus said He comes "as a thief". So this ultimately means His servants are to supposed to be able to recognize the day and hour of His future coming, not the date, but the day and hour per the Sign He gave for it.

What you don't recognize is that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

You think that the second coming is Armageddon when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19 which we see the results of in Rev 16.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. It is the second harvest when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are mostly raptured from the earth at the 6th seal prior to the wrath of God.

Do you know where He told you that Sign for that day and hour? It is written in His Word.

Are you referring to the sign of the Son of man? or are you talking about the Revelation 12 sign?

Thus context is everything, and only by staying... in the Bible Scripture as written, allowing God's Word to flow line upon line, will one discover the proper context.

Matt 24:42-47
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
KJV

That in red above is Jesus revealing that we are to recognize in what 'watch' the thief will come. Not only that, but we are to be found giving our household that "meat in due season" info too when He does come as a thief. Why don't preachers include this part that Jesus taught there too in their nobody knows the day tirade? It's because they don't have a clue how Jesus meant the above, and are blinded by their traditions.



To the Church of Sardis Jesus said:

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

What you fail to understand is that the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened. Then the Lord comes for the second bride at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The result is the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 and at the marriage supper in Revelation 19. In Revelation 7 many come out of great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins.

Your view has believers on the earth during the wrath of God because you fail to understand the difference between the great tribulation and the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Why do you have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God? We are not appointed to wrath.

 

[The Light]

I don't recall who I asked about the "untimely figs" regarding the 6th Seal. And I think my question was specific enough. I think you're just stalling.

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

I don't need to stall. I had no idea where you had asked me such question and apparently you didn't ask me. I have addressed your question in the previous post and await your response.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Romans 11
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The Gentile harvest is complete except for the poor and the stranger.

Clearly you do not understand Romans 11:25-26 exactly talked about:

Romans 11:25-26

• "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
• And so all Israel shall be Saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Israel, in part, is blinded. The question is, what Israel is this? Well, we have to remember that Paul is talking to the Romans (Gentiles), saying that they have no reason to boast, and declaring that part of Israel (the election) obtained the promises, and the rest were blinded. So clearly we see that the Israel in part that were blinded, are the majority of Israel. And just as clearly we see that there is an Israel that obtained the promises, which God calls the election, or the Chosen. Both God calls Israel. One may ask, how can that be? It can be because they all were collectively the olive tree Israel, or corporate covenant Israel. For the Jewish people in part who rejected Christ, judgment has come upon them for the hardness of their heart, as they are pictured as branches broken off or blinded. That is the reason that Paul was sorrowful when he was explaining that, "all are not Israel who are of Israel." And note he is also referencing two Israelis' there. He spoke in Romans 9:6 of Israel, the corporate entity. And He spoke of the Israel within "that" Israel, which he declares is the only "real" Israel of God. By saying they are "not" all Israel, which are of Israel, God makes it perfectly clear that there are two Israelis. And only one of them is the Israel of God. The one who "are" the Israel of God is the remnant within that Israel that are not blinded. They are the election which have obtained the promises.

The meat of the controversy comes in the phrase, "Blindness in part has happened unto Israel till the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." Many people are confused as to what this declaration really means? But it is simply building upon what Paul has just stated. He said he doesn't want them to be ignorant of "the mystery" which is that the Gentiles are to be part of this very same "One Body," which is Covenant Israel. He has spoken of the revelation of the mystery that has always been God's plan. Jew and Gentile alike as one people together as one family of God.

Ephesians 1:9-10

• "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in Himself:
• That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

In the fullness of time, it was revealed that the Gentiles would also be a part of Covenant Israel. That is the mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, but is now revealed. Salvation to the Jew first, and then salvation to the Gentiles. There is no special dispensation of time for a third salvation for Jewish people after the Gentiles. It is the Jew first, and then the Gentiles. Thus all have the same opportunity to be Children of God. God has revealed the mystery that has been hid from other ages, and Paul doesn't want the Romans to be ignorant or unknowledgeable about this mystery. Gentiles are the fellow heirs with the Jews, not a body apart from the Jews.

This is the same mystery Paul wrote to the Ephesians about:

Ephesians 3:3-6

• "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
• Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
• Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
• That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Not a different body, not a different family, not a different congregation, nor a separate inheritance apart from the Jews, but the Gentiles are fellow heirs of the same body, and partakers of the "same" promises to their fathers, and enjoying the same fatness of the Covenant Olive tree. They are being grafted into this same Covenant Israel. History shows Salvation went to the Jews first, but because of unbelief, the Jew is blinded. And that blindness will last until the Christian Gentiles coming in to their full state. For example, there are no more Gentiles coming in after their "fullness," and this rules out any alleged program of evangelization of the Gentiles by the Jews after their blindness is supposed to be lifted. Their corporate blindness will remain until there is not one other Gentile left to be saved. Until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. This does not mean that there would be a conversion of the majority of the Jewish nation sometime after this fullness of the Gentile like the Dispensationalists believe, rather it illustrates their blindness or hardness of heart would last until no more Gentiles are being saved.

So the overview of verse twenty-five is that God doesn't want us to be ignorant of this mystery concerning the Gentiles that they would have a high opinion of themselves because they were grafted in, and the majority of the Jews were cut off from the tree because of unbelief. Because in man's ignorance, he will often become wise in his own conceits and formulate doctrines which are biased and contrary to what God's Word declares about there being no distinction between Jewish children of covenant Israel and Gentile children of covenant Israel (Romans 16:25; Colossians 1:26-27; 1st Corinthians 15:51; Mark 4:11; Ephesians 1:9, 3:3). They are one tree and one body, and no ignorance can change that truth that was once kept a mystery before. They are not better just because (except for the election) a spiritual blindness has come upon the Jewish nation. We are told that this blindness will last until the totality or fullness of the Gentiles have come into Covenant Israel, symbolized by this tree. It will last until there is not another Gentile branch to be grafted in. Those who look for Israel to bear fruit in the future concerning Christ are looking in vain (Matthew 21:9).

After all Gentile Elect be secured, THUS (not "then") ALL COVENANT ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. Nothing to do with 70AD or future salvation program for national Israel.

 

[David in NJ]

And?

You applied two separate 'Returns' by saying: "the angels gathered..."

JESUS 2nd Coming will come with His Holy angels = Mark 8:38 , Matt 24:29-31 , 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10

For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed

 

[The Light]

There is no special dispensation of time for a third salvation for Jewish people after the Gentiles. It is the Jew first, and then the Gentiles.

It is the Gentile first and then the Jews. The Jews have been blinded; they are not first. Yes, the election received the truth but the rest were blinded. It is through jealously that the Jews come to the truth.

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

After all Gentile Elect be secured, THUS (not "then") ALL COVENANT ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. Nothing to do with 70AD or future salvation program for national Israel.

Of course, it has nothing to do with 70 AD.

Only part of Israel has their blindness removed. They are the seed of the woman Israel, the 12 tribes across the earth that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Those of the 12 tribes are raptured at the 6th seal before the wrath of God.

Those in national Israel that flee to a place of protection will remain on the earth during the wrath of God. Believers will be in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

You applied two separate 'Returns' by saying: "the angels gathered..."

There is separate returns.

Jesus returns for the Church prior to the great tribulation. 1 Thes 4

Jesus returns for the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal. 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21

Unbelievers, and 2 witnesses, and those of the nation of Israel will remain on the earth during the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

After one year, Jesus will return with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

 

[covenantee]

Read the context, genius.

John 2:13-21

• "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
• And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
• And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
• And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
• And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
• Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
• Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
• Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
• But he spake of the temple of his body.

The plain understanding of Christ's words had the Jews thinking that Christ was talking about the literal/Physical Temple. After all, He had just thrown the buyers and sellers out of it, and consequently the Jews then asked him, "what sign do you show us of your authority to do so, seeing that you did these things?" Sure, the plain, grammatical, and historical understanding of His words would lead any sensible person to think the literal Temple is what Christ spoke of. But Christ's thoughts are not man's thoughts, so "prophetically," He was speaking of the prophecy that THEY would destroy the Sanctuary of the Holy Temple (His body) and he would rebuild it in three days. So when you say that it seems obvious that when the literal, straightforward meaning is logical and clear, we should never look for hidden, allegorical, or forced meanings, that doesn't agree with God's thoughts on the matter.

Proverbs 25:2

• "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

That's why Christ spoke in parables, that seeing me would not see, and hearing, men would not hear. We have to search it out, for that is the honor of Kings and Priests unto God. It is written, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2nd Timothy 2:15). That's not lip service, that's God's command to us. It's not what we personally think or privately interpret; it's what God says.

So what is your point about verse you took out of context?

You claim that the temple was Christ's body. So I merely substituted your claim for the plain words of Inspired Scripture.

The resulting context is your context, not mine.

So you're complaining about the Scripture without your context, and your're complaining about the Scripture with your context.

Such is the nonsense resulting when your gnostified hyperspiritualizations are substituted for the inerrant words of Inspired Scripture..

 

[David in NJ]

There is separate returns.

Jesus returns for the Church prior to the great tribulation. 1 Thes 4

Jesus returns for the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal. 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21

Unbelievers, and 2 witnesses, and those of the nation of Israel will remain on the earth during the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

After one year, Jesus will return with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

You know i love you and am praying for God to grant you understanding on His One and Only RETURN

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[claninja]

Ignoring the distinction of the many "princes" by grammatical identification leads you to believe an error.

What is the grammatical identification, specifically?

Grammatical ID of TWO princes

Prince #1 = MESSIAH the Prince will be CUT-OFF(violent death) = Prince #1 is now removed

Prince #2 = "the people of the prince who shall come will destroy the city"

Grammar Identifes TWO distinct "princes"

Your conclusion doesn’t follow grammatically. It’s a non sequitur. The fact that the Messiah is cut off does not make it grammatically impossible for the next clause to refer back to him. People are routinely referred to after their death. What grammatical feature, not the fact of his removal, requires “the prince who is to come” to be a different referent than the prince of vs 25?

 

[The Light]

You know i love you and am praying for God to grant you understanding on His One and Only RETURN

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Very kind of you David. Thank you.

I pray that you are watching and ready for His soon coming for His bride.

 

[David in NJ]

Very kind of you David. Thank you.

I pray that you are watching and ready for His soon coming for His bride.

God’s Everlasting Love​

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Davy]

Apparently, you missed the part where I said you did not ask me this question before.

Well, I asked you in my last post. Why are you stalling? Is it because you don't know what that means regarding the 6th Seal?

 

[The Light]

Well, I asked you in my last post. Why are you stalling? Is it because you don't know what that means regarding the 6th Seal?

Already answered in post # 82. I don't stall. I don't run. I don't block people. I'll repost for you here. Please address my post.

But what about what I asked regarding the stars cast down like "untimely figs" mentioned on the 6th Seal?

Apparently, you missed the part where I said you did not ask me this question before.

And you seem to have missed the part where I asked you if you were talking about the "stars falling from heaven" I'll repost for you.

I don't see this question being asked to me. Maybe you thought you posted it and forgot to hit send.

Let's talk in specifics so I understand your question. Are you asking about the stars that fall from heaven?

What do you want to know about the stars falling from heaven? There is war in heaven that begins when the abomination of desolation is set up as the woman flees to her place of protection when the great tribulation begins. The stars from heaven which are the fallen angels in heaven are cast to the earth like an untimely fig in a storm.

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Daniel also talks about this.

Revelation 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Isaiah also talks about this falling of the angels before the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

If you had actually paid attention... to what Jesus said about watching those Signs He gave in His Olivet discourse, then you'd have understood also gave a warning of those who don't watch won't know in what hour the thief comes. Per Rev.16:15 Jesus said He comes "as a thief". So this ultimately means His servants are to supposed to be able to recognize the day and hour of His future coming, not the date, but the day and hour per the Sign He gave for it.

What you don't recognize is that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

You think that the second coming is Armageddon when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19 which we see the results of in Rev 16.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. It is the second harvest when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are mostly raptured from the earth at the 6th seal prior to the wrath of God.

Do you know where He told you that Sign for that day and hour? It is written in His Word.

Are you referring to the sign of the Son of man? or are you talking about the Revelation 12 sign?

Thus context is everything, and only by staying... in the Bible Scripture as written, allowing God's Word to flow line upon line, will one discover the proper context.

Matt 24:42-47
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
KJV

That in red above is Jesus revealing that we are to recognize in what 'watch' the thief will come. Not only that, but we are to be found giving our household that "meat in due season" info too when He does come as a thief. Why don't preachers include this part that Jesus taught there too in their nobody knows the day tirade? It's because they don't have a clue how Jesus meant the above, and are blinded by their traditions.



To the Church of Sardis Jesus said:

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV
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What you fail to understand is that the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened. Then the Lord comes for the second bride at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The result is the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 and at the marriage supper in Revelation 19. In Revelation 7 many come out of great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins.

Your view has believers on the earth during the wrath of God because you fail to understand the difference between the great tribulation and the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Why do you have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God? We are not appointed to wrath.

 

[Davy]

Already answered in post # 82. I don't stall. I don't run. I don't block people. I'll repost for you here. Please address my post.


Apparently, you missed the part where I said you did not ask me this question before.

And you seem to have missed the part where I asked you if you were talking about the "stars falling from heaven" I'll repost for you.

I don't see this question being asked to me. Maybe you thought you posted it and forgot to hit send.

Let's talk in specifics so I understand your question. Are you asking about the stars that fall from heaven?

What do you want to know about the stars falling from heaven? There is war in heaven that began when the abomination of desolation is set up as the woman flees to her place of protection when the great tribulation begins. The stars from heaven which are the angels in heaven are cast to the earth like an untimely fig in a storm.

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Daniel also talks about this.

Revelation 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Isaiah also talks about this falling of the angels before the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

What you don't recognize is that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

You think that the second coming is Armageddon when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19 which we see the results of in Rev 16.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. It is the second harvest when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are mostly raptured from the earth at the 6th seal prior to the wrath of God.

Are you referring to the sign of the Son of man? or are you talking about the Revelation 12 sign?

What you fail to understand is that the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened. Then the Lord comes for the second bride at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The result is the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 and at the marriage supper in Revelation 19. In Revelation 7 many come out of great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins.

Your view has believers on the earth during the wrath of God because you fail to understand the difference between the great tribulation and the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Why do you have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God? We are not appointed to wrath.

NO, you actually failed IF you think you were answering my question with the above, because you said the following FALSE STATEMENT...

What you fail to understand is that the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened.​

​

NOPE! The Church is NOT in Heaven prior to the Seals being opened. The Church will go THROUGH the "great tribulation" for it is Christ's Church that Satan and his host coming to this earth are after to DECEIVE.

Satan already knows he is destined to perish in the lake of fire, so he wants company, especially those of God's servants, and particularly those of Christ's servants. This is why Revelation 18 shows that when the Babylon harlot "great city" is destroyed, it mentions one of its merchandise of trade is the "souls of men". Satan doesn't have to go after the souls of the wicked, deceived and unbelieving, he's already got them in his bag.

 

[The Light]

NO, you actually failed IF you think you were answering my question with the above, because you said the following FALSE STATEMENT...

I see you were unable to address my answer about the untimely figs. What happened?

What you fail to understand is that the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened.​

​

NOPE! The Church is NOT in Heaven prior to the Seals being opened. The Church will go THROUGH the "great tribulation" for it is Christ's Church that Satan and his host coming to this earth are after to DECEIVE.

The Church is in heaven in before the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We can tell Jesus has already returned as the 24 elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The seals are not opened until Revelation 6

Satan already knows he is destined to perish in the lake of fire, so he wants company, especially those of God's servants, and particularly those of Christ's servants. This is why Revelation 18 shows that when the Babylon harlot "great city" is destroyed, it mentions one of its merchandise of trade is the "souls of men". Satan doesn't have to go after the souls of the wicked, deceived and unbelieving, he's already got them in his bag.

I doubt you understand what city is the great city. The great city is Vatican City.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I doubt you understand what city is the great city. The great city is Vatican City.

Vatican City? Facepalm.

 

[Davy]

I see you were unable to address my answer about the untimely figs. What happened?


The Church is in heaven in before the seals are opened.

Oh, isn't that nice! In the above you MISQUOTE ON PURPOSE. What a DECEIVER AND A LIAR YOU ARE.

 

[The Light]

Oh, isn't that nice! In the above you MISQUOTE ON PURPOSE. What a DECEIVER AND A LIAR YOU ARE.

Thanks bub.

And what did I lie about?

You never addressed my post about the untimely figs, and yet cried several times for a response, and actually thought that I was ducking you.

Please get it together like a man or it will be time for you to run Davy, run. We both know that you have no answers.

 

[Davidpt]

In Daniel 9:25, there are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until “the messiah the prince.” Then, in verse 26a, it explains what happens after the seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, “the messiah” is cut off, and in verse 26b, the people of “the prince” who is to come destroy the city and the sanctuary.

If the “Messiah” in verse 26a naturally refers back to the “Messiah” in verse 25, why wouldn’t the “prince” in verse 26b also naturally refer back to the “prince” in verse 25? What in the grammar or context requires the reader to identify the repeated “Messiah” as the same figure, but treat the repeated “prince” as someone entirely different?

25. Know3045therefore and understand,7919that from4480 the going forth4161 of the commandment1697to restore7725 and to build1129Jerusalem3389unto5704 the messiah4899 the prince5057 shall be seven7651weeks,7620 and threescore8346 and two8147 weeks:7620the street7339 shall be built[URL='https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/poly

Why can't it simply be determined from the text itself? But that doesn't mean we disregard relevant texts outside of these texts. These other texts would be a 2nd witness, so to speak.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Notice what verse 25 plainly says---to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks

That equals 69 weeks are involved in regard unto the Messiah the Prince.

Then in verse 26 we notice this--And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

Except we need to also consider verse 27 before deciding about when He is cutoff---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

That means from the time that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince until He is cutoff, it involves 69 and 1/2 weeks. Once these 69 and 1/2 weeks have gone by, the Messiah the Prince has already come and has already left. Unless one has a dispute that His first coming happened. Or unless one has a dispute that His ascension back into heaven occurred shortly after he was cutoff, and that He is still bodily in heaven as we speak.

Compared with---and the people of the prince that shall come

We know this verse should be understood like such--the prince that shall come--as in a future event in relation to the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. Therefore, it is not reasonable to take the prince that shall come to be meaning the Messiah unless one has an answer for what coming of Christ took place after the first 69 and 1/2 weeks, yet prior to His bodily return in the end of this age.

I don't have an answer for that nor would anyone have an answer for that if they view the coming in Matthew 24:30 in the same manner as me, that it is meaning His bodily return in the end of this age.

No matter how you look at it, this part--the prince that shall come--involves a coming of a prince post that of the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. And if the Messiah is meant, what then in the NT explains the Messiah coming, in any sense, post the first 69 and 1/2 weeks, yet prior to His bodily return in the end of this age?

Anyone that agrees that the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah, yet takes Matthew 24:30 to be involving Christ's bodily return in the end of this age, are clearly confused about things and that no one should take any of their arguments serious that the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah when they can't even remotely prove it via the NT. Let's totally disregard that Scripture interprets Scripture. In this case let's just use speculation interprets Scripture.

You, OTOH, are not taking Matthew 24:30 to be meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age. Therefore, I'm not meaning you as well. But unless you are correct about Matthew 24:30 though, you too have zero support via the NT that the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah, since something in the NT has to explain this coming. Except you can't use Matthew 24:30 to explain this coming if you are not interpreting Matthew 24:30 correctly to begin with. That would be a fallacy of some sort, to use something untrue to try and and prove something with.

Even without going outside of Daniel 9:25-27, we already know from these verses alone, the following facts.

that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks---And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

That 69 and 1/2 weeks are involved and that the Messiah has already come. But in 26b it involves a prince that shall come sometime post that of the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. In this context shall come does not equal already came earlier. It means shall come in the future, sometime post the first 69 and 1/2 weeks.

You seem to have a special rule where everything should be determined from the text alone without having to go outside of the text. Which then makes one wonder what is the point of the NT if Daniel 9:25-27 alone can explain everything? Except without the NT, how would we ever know from Daniel 9:25-27 alone that after the Messiah is cutoff, He eventually bodily left the planet altogether and is still bodily gone some 2000 years later?

No way in a million years could we ever determine that from Daniel 9:25-27 alone.

Maybe your approach to theology differs from my approach? I think Scripture should interpret Scripture when possible.

Obviously, which would not include you in this case, but anyone that insists the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah, yet takes Matthew 24:30 to be meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age, does not agree that Scripture interprets Scripture. Because if they did agree, Matthew 24:30 alone would be proving to them the Messiah can't remotely be meant as the prince that shall come. Because now they have to explain what other coming recorded in the NT explains the coming meant in 26b if they still stubbornly insist the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah.?