Revelation chapter 11 questions

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Jews in the future will be building to the God of the Old Testament, the true "God", this will be done against God's direction, and in disregard to the Cross of Calvary

The world will view this 3rd temple as the Hebrew God's temple

They do not believe in the true God because, as Jesus said multiple times, anyone who rejects Him also rejects God the Father. No future physical temple would ever be ordained to be built by God, so no future physical temple is a temple that scripture would call God's temple or the temple of God. Nowhere in scripture does it describe a future fake temple of God being built as part of the fulfillment of any prophecy.

 

[Douggg]

Please explain the bold red below, and how Jesus will be revealed from the heavens in "Flaming Fire" taking vengeance?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

In flaming fire in that verse is metaphoric to mean with strong intensity regarding Jesus's actions to make retribution on those who will have persecuted the great tribulation saints.

 

[Davy]

You're missing the point. The second temple was ordained to be built by God regardless of what happened there later. No future physical temple would ever be ordained to be built by God, so no future physical temple is a temple that scripture would call God's temple or the temple of God.

I'm not missing the point; you simply haven't gotten anywhere near the real point.

So likewise the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem will believe Messiah has come, and is ordaining the building of their 3rd temple...

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."
KJV

Do the orthodox Jews know about that above prophecy regarding the coming of Messiah? Yes. They are waiting for Messiah to come still, for they rejected Lord Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.


John 5:43
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
KJV

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not missing the point; you simply haven't gotten anywhere near the real point.

Your "real point" is making things up by acting as if some useless future physical temple, which may or may not even be built, would be something that scripture would call God's temple.

So likewise the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem will believe Messiah has come, and is ordaining the building of their 3rd temple...

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."
KJV

Do the orthodox Jews know about that above prophecy regarding the coming of Messiah? Yes. They are waiting for Messiah to come still, for they rejected Lord Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.


John 5:43
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
KJV

No temple built by antichrist Jews who deny that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ would ever be called "the temple of the LORD" in scripture.

 

[Davy]

Your "real point" is making things up by acting as if some useless future physical temple, which may or may not even be built, would be something that scripture would call God's temple.

You've been shown. But you reject that Scripture I showed. Even the "vile person" of Daniel 11 is shown that he will come to power using a small group of Jews, which suggests a cabal of the "tares" hidden among today's Jews in Jerusalem. They will promote him as Messiah, and the majority of Jews will believe it, and it looks like that may include yourself.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

First question, which Temple is God talking about, the temple of Salomon which was destroyed in AD70, or is it a future temple yet to be build. And if the latter is true how can God call that temple the temple of God because God does not longer live in a temple but in the hearts of His children. So I think chapter 11 is talking about a situation before AD70.

God Himself lived in the temple, he has the abundance of the Glory, no man can look on Him and live because of His glory. So, why could people look on Jesus and live? Why can the holy spirit live in our hearts and we are A-OK? Because God the Father in the exact same in essence as Jesus as Jesus & the holy spirit in that they are loving, joyful, peaceful, forgiving, kind etc. etc. BUT the Father has the abundance of the Glory........people say WHAT (smile). Think of the trinity in this same way, there is a Three Trillion Gallon Reservoir, in it every oz. of what has the exact same chemical make up, now lets take a 100 gallon barrel (Jesus) another 100 gallon barrel (Holy Spirit) and measure it against the 3 trillion gallons, who has the abundance of the "glory"? If we pour either of the 100 gallons over our heads we will be A-OK, but if we pour the full 3 trillion gallons over our heads, we would surely die right?

So, God Himself was Israel Husband, Jesus is the churches husband, we are his bride, Israel was Gods bride so God rent the temple, left Israel desolate, the diaspora soon followed in 70 AD but God left in 33 AD or when Jesus died in that general time. God will once again be Israel husband when they repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah/Sacrifice, and thus the 144,000 (really 5 million or 1/3 as Zech. 13:8-9 says) have the Fathers name on their forehead. The temple is cleansed when the 1/3 repent JUST BEFORE the DOTL. Thus the Two-witnesses are the 1335 Blessing. So, when this vision was given to John, its not what most people think, he is saying MEASURE the temple (but you did not highlight the other 2 things) and [MEASURE] the ALTAR and THOSE WHO WORSHIP THEREIN.

So, John was being told to measure the Temple, the Altar AND THOSE (Jews) who worship therein. So, who worshiped in the temple? ONLY Jews/Israelis, the outer courts were given to the Gentiles. And he was told NOT TO MEASURE the Gentiles? What is this lingo? John was basically being told that the Two-witnesses were only going to go to the Children of Israel, just like Jesus only went to the Lost Sheep of Israel. They are not being set to get Gentiles to repent. So, in a round about way, we are being shown the 2 witnesses ministry has one purpose the Jews who worship in the altar/temple, the gentiles who worship in the outer court is not the target of their mission.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [KJV]

So in Jerusalem the beast that rises from the bottomless pit murders the messengers of God in Jerusalem and God calls Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt.

Second question, who (or what) is the beast that murdered the 2 messengers of God, a number of possibilities

He is Apollyon, the Scarlet Colored Beast with NO CROWNS in Rev. 17. God let them "be killed" so we can see their 1260 days does not parallel with the Beasts 1260 days. It clues us in that the 1335 happens 75 days before the 1260.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You've been shown. But you reject that Scripture I showed. Even the "vile person" of Daniel 11 is shown that he will come to power using a small group of Jews, which suggests a cabal of the "tares" hidden among today's Jews in Jerusalem. They will promote him as Messiah, and the majority of Jews will believe it, and it looks like that may include yourself.

You showed me that you have no idea of what you're talking about because you try to make some fake future temple into something that scripture would call God's temple or the temple of God. Impossible.

 

[Truth7t7]

Surface of this earth only, is what is burned up by God's consuming fire on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming, NOT the whole earth.

The existing heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" down to the very "Elements"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Truth7t7]

This present earth and its heaven will be destroyed at the end of the 1000 years in Revelation 20:11.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

No such thing as a future 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement dissolving the present heaven's and earth by fire (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

They do not believe in the true God because, as Jesus said multiple times, anyone who rejects Him also rejects God the Father. No future physical temple would ever be ordained to be built by God, so no future physical temple is a temple that scripture would call God's temple or the temple of God. Nowhere in scripture does it describe a future fake temple of God being built as part of the fulfillment of any prophecy.

I disagree with your claims made, Isaiah 66:1-4 strongly suggest that a 3rd temple will be built and animal sacrifice resumed, yes it will be an abomination to the Lord and the Cross of Calvary

When the Jews build in the future they will be building to the Hebrew "God" of the Bible, not some foreign god like, Buddah, Shiva, Etc

The key is you clearly see the renewed animal sacrifice taking place in this house/temple being built for God, verse 3 and God is showing his disapproval

Isaiah 66:1-4 strongly suggest a rebuilt house/temple dedicated to God by the Jews, with renewed animal sacrifice, this will be an "Abomonation" to the Lord and the cross of Calvary, God will send them a strong delusion

Point Of Interest: The word "Delusion" is used 2 times in the KJV, and they are both associated with a house/temple, and it appears that the scripture presented could be "Parallel Readings" of the same event?

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11KJV
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[Davy]

The existing heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" down to the very "Elements"

Once again, that KJV word "elements" in the Greek does NOT mean the periodic table of atomic element weights, i.e., matter. It's means an 'orderly arrangement', like an earth age period.

 

[Truth7t7]

In flaming fire in that verse is metaphoric to mean with strong intensity regarding Jesus's actions to make retribution on those who will have persecuted the great tribulation saints.

Jesus returning in the heavens with fire isn't a "Metaphor" as you claim, it will be a future literal event that is seen in several places throughout scripture

douggg when it doesn't fit your charts and graphs you try desperately to remove the Lords future literal fire with your "Symbolic Metaphor", the very reason why your claims and charts made can't be taken seriously

The Same Future Event Below Showing The Lord Jesus (Returns/Reveals) In Literal Fire Destruction

(Future Literal Fire)

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

(Future Literal Fire)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once again, that KJV word "elements" in the Greek does NOT mean the periodic table of atomic element weights, i.e., matter. It's means an 'orderly arrangement', like an earth age period.

Nonsense. The Greek word CAN refer to the atomic elements/matter, so you are being dishonest by suggesting that it only has one meaning.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus returning in the heavens with fire isn't a "Metaphor" as you claim, it will be a future literal event that is seen in several places throughout scripture

You have to look at the context of 2Thessalonians1.

Paul was addressing the Thessalonians about the persecutions and tribulations they were undergoing, verse 4.

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

In verse 7, Paul say that someday Jesus would be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Then it comes to verse 8 -10. Verse 10, when Jesus returns, He will be gloried in His saints, will be admired by all of them on earth at the time who believe in Him..

So the world is not destroyed via fire, at Jesus 's return. Yes, there will be judgment executed on the wicked at Jesus's return. But the world is not going to be destroyed by fire at that time.

 

[Davidpt]

Nonsense. The Greek word CAN refer to the atomic elements/matter, so you are being dishonest by suggesting that it only has one meaning.

I don't agree with you nor @Davy in this case. But since I still have @Davy on ignore I can't respond to his post then. Yet I can see his response to you that you quoted if I'm reading any of these posts when not logged in. When I'm logged in, what you quoted from @Davy reads like such--- You are ignoring content by this member. But when I'm not logged in I can clearly see what you quoted via @Davy. A lot of times I read posts while not logged in first.


elements
stoiceion
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of stoicew - stoicheo 4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):--element, principle, rudiment.



The following are all the other passages in the NT that use this Greek word in particular. Therefore, he who alleges must prove. Which of these other passages support how you are interpreting elements(stoiceion) in 2 Peter 3:10, 12?

Gal 4:3, Gal 4:9, Col 2:8, Heb 5:12, Col 2:20

Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements(stoiceion) of the world:

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements(stoiceion), whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments(stoiceion) of the world, and not after Christ

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles(stoiceion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments(stoiceion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Prove you are interpreting (stoiceion) in 2 Peter 3:10,12 correctly
by applying that same Greek word in the exact same manner per any of these other passages I provided. To apply (stoiceion) in a different manner in 2 Peter 3:10, 12, a manner which no other NT passage supports, is called cherry picking and doctrinal bias where I come from.


And what's ironic about it, you are charging @Davy with dishonesty, as if dishonesty does not apply in your case if not one single other passage in the NT supports how you are interpreting (stoiceion) in 2 Peter 3:10,12, then you insisting (stoiceion) means what you take it to mean, regardless.

 

[Truth7t7]

So the world is not destroyed via fire, at Jesus 's return. Yes, there will be judgment executed on the wicked at Jesus's return. But the world is not going to be destroyed by fire at that time.

Your claims is "False"

This present earth will be "Dissolved" down to its very "Elements" by the Lord's fire in final judgement at his return

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus returning in the heavens with fire isn't a "Metaphor" as you claim, it will be a future literal event that is seen in several places throughout scripture

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

When Jesus returns, He will stand on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half, Zechariah 14:4

 

[Davy]

Your claims is "False"

This present earth will be "Dissolved" down to its very "Elements" by the Lord's fire in final judgement at his return

....

So disprove what @Davidpt said to you... and I quote...

Prove you are interpreting (stoiceion) in 2 Peter 3:10,12 correctly​

by applying that same Greek word in the exact same manner per any of these other passages I provided. To apply (stoiceion) in a different manner in 2 Peter 3:10, 12, a manner which no other NT passage supports, is called cherry picking and doctrinal bias where I come from.​

​

And what's ironic about it, you are charging @Davy with dishonesty, as if dishonesty does not apply in your case if not one single other passage in the NT supports how you are interpreting (stoiceion) in 2 Peter 3:10,12, then you insisting (stoiceion) means what you take it to mean, regardless.​

@Truth7t7, you might want to invest in a Bible study tool called The Englishman's Concordance. By using Strong's numbers, you can look up all the verses in the KJV Bible how a specific word is translated into English.