The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[Spiritual Israelite]

If we go by what these words expressed at the time they were spoken, it was common knowledge that Israel was the chosen nation, and all the other nations were not, and were the gentiles.

Jesus was speaking of those who would be considered the elect at His second coming. That's us (the church). Other scripture confirms that those who will be gathered when Christ comes are those who are in Christ (1 Thess 4:14-17).

So when Jesus prophesied the chosen would be gathered, the chosen people would see that this was the same as Ezekiel and Joel and others had prophesied, that God would return a scattered Israel back to it's land.

When Jesus prophesied the nations would then be gathered, it's the same thing. This was also prophesied, and would have been clearly understood in Jesus' day.

Meanwhile, Paul attested that he had revealed the church, and various matters concerning it, from being musterion, something not known nor understood until it is revealed.

It doesn't matter if anyone understood who the elect would be when Jesus comes at the time He spoke that. It being revealed later who the elect will be that are gathered at Christ's coming doesn't change what Jesus was talking about.

Consider an example,

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

We realize that "prevent" had a different meaning than it does now, and we know to keep this in mind as we read the passage.

Shouldn't we do the same in this case also?

No. We should consider who the elect will be when Jesus comes because that is the context. And the elect are those who belong to Christ (Romans 8:31-34).

No Israelite would consider the elect, the chosen, to include Gentiles.

That is meaningless. Jesus was talking about the future event of His second coming and He knew they would begin to understand what He was talking about later after receiving the Holy Spirit. The elect are the church. That is who will be gathered at His second coming according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. I see that you do try to relate scriptures together, but you relate the wrong scriptures together. Both 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 speak of the same event and it will clearly occur AFTER the tribulation of those days.

And there is no need for them to be included, since Jesus likewise addressed what will await "the nations".

Including the church in the regathering of Israel to it's land goes against a sound hermenuetic (the use of the words when they were used), it violates Paul's assertion of revelation, it runs contrary to the many parallel prophecies, and it creates internal inconsistencies within the discourse itself.

I don't find any of this to be convincing at all even though you are clearly convinced in your own mind.

These are my primary reasons for concluding that the elect gathered here is Israel being regathered,

Ezekiel 39:27-29 (KJV)
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

We're talking about a gathering of believers at Christ's second coming here. Why would you try to relate that to obscure Old Testament references rather than clear scripture like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 that speaks of things that will happen at Christ's second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Meanwhile in the sheep goat judgment, the works are not attributed to that one's belonging to Christ, they are given as determinative of their being righteous or wicked.

Matthew 25:34-36 (KJV)
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

"Inherit . . . because I was hungry, and you gave me food"

Why are you ignoring my arguments? This is what frustrates me about you. I showed you scripture which speaks of those belonging to Christ being judged by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10) and you're not addressing that. How is the description of believers being judged by their works in verses like 2 Corinthians 5:10 any different than the sheep being judged by their works? Do you seriously believe that anyone will inherit eternal life based on their works? Impossible! Salvation/eternal life is by God's grace through faith and NOT by works. You are blatantly contradicting scripture like Ephesians 2:8-9 and others with your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[marks]

Why are they saying "peace and safety"?

Who is saying it?

I'm still waiting for you to explain what the social economic conditions at the end of the tribulation will look like.

Here's what I think.

The birth pangs of Matthew 24 increase, becoming worse and worse, then the seals are opened, and these things become overwhelming realities in the earth.

The first horseman is releasing the beast, and human governance turns fully hostile to man.
The second horseman removes peace, carrying a "great short sword", the hand to hand weapon. Violence towards each other permeates society, and humanity itself becomes hostile to humanity.
The third horseman turns economy and commerce to be hostile to humanity.
The fourth horseman turns ecology to be hostile to humanity.

In this backdrop a world wide earthquake hits, fire and brimstone rain down, grass and trees burn, ocean turned to blood, on it goes.

I don't see things getting better as time passes. A new normal, yes, but consider what that must be like!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why are you ignoring my arguments? This is what frustrates me about you. I showed you scripture which speaks of those belonging to Christ being judged by their works

I've answered this specifically.

They are different judgments, as the Christians are judged to receive or lose reward, while the sheep are judge righteous because of their works. The Christians are righteous being "in Christ". These are fully different.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why are they saying "peace and safety"?

Who is saying it?

Just read what follows that. Those who are in spiritual darkness are saying it. They are going about their normal lives while saying it. They think they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath, but the next thing they know Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape". This will occur post-trib, not pre-trib. You can't have some 7 year tribulation occurring after all unbelievers are killed.

I'm still waiting for you to explain what the social economic conditions at the end of the tribulation will look like.

Do you not think that the time they are saying peace and safety occurs during the tribulation? They are saying that right up until Jesus returns at which point they are then destroyed. So, your "social economic conditions" theory is unbiblical. It's your flawed understanding of what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24:37-39.

 

[marks]

Do you seriously believe that anyone will inherit eternal life based on their works? Impossible!

This is why you don't receive the plain saying of the passage, because you find it to be impossible. Yet this is what the passage says. I accept what it says, you consider it impossible, and therefore don't accept it's plain saying.

Why should we have a problem believing such a simple thing?

The beast will be persecuting Israel, as well as any other believers that there may be. Jesus will receive into His kingdom those gentiles who help Israelites, even in the face of being persecuted themselves by the beast.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jesus was speaking of those who would be considered the elect at His second coming.

Rather, He was giving a prophecy to the people in front of Him. That the use of the language changed decades later, that doesn't mean Jesus' prophecy changed from when He gave it. Just like the KJV example I gave.

And even so, if you include the church in the gathering of the elect then where do you get the sheep who are gathered next with the nations? It doesn't work.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here's what I think.

The birth pangs of Matthew 24 increase, becoming worse and worse, then the seals are opened, and these things become overwhelming realities in the earth.

The first horseman is releasing the beast, and human governance turns fully hostile to man.
The second horseman removes peace, carrying a "great short sword", the hand to hand weapon. Violence towards each other permeates society, and humanity itself becomes hostile to humanity.
The third horseman turns economy and commerce to be hostile to humanity.
The fourth horseman turns ecology to be hostile to humanity.

In this backdrop a world wide earthquake hits, fire and brimstone rain down, grass and trees burn, ocean turned to blood, on it goes.

I don't see things getting better as time passes. A new normal, yes, but consider what that must be like!

Regardless of what exactly is going on in the world during the time before Christ returns, people will still be saying "peace and safety" right up until Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night and then destroys them, according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. So, the idea that CrowCross has that things have to be completely peaceful and normal in the world when the rapture occurs is false and doesn't fit with what Jesus and Paul taught.

 

[marks]

Regardless of what exactly is going on in the world during the time before Christ returns, people will still be saying "peace and safety" right up until Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night and then destroys them, according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. So, the idea that CrowCross has that things have to be completely peaceful and normal in the world when the rapture occurs is false and doesn't fit with what Jesus and Paul taught.

Revelation 16:1-21 (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Peace and safety?

Are you sure?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is why you don't receive the plain saying of the passage, because you find it to be impossible.

Scripture teaches that. Do you not accept what it says in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9? Do you think that salvation can occur any other way except by God's grace through faith? That is impossible because no one can ever earn salvation/eternal life. Only the work of Christ on the cross can provide eternal life. Our part is to trust in Him and His work, not to try to earn salvation with our own works. No one can ever do that.

Yet this is what the passage says. I accept what it says, you consider it impossible, and therefore don't accept it's plain saying.

It blatantly contradicts other scripture. Do you not care if your interpretation of one passages contradicts other passages?

Why should we have a problem believing such a simple thing?

Because salvation is by God's grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Do you not believe that?

The beast will be persecuting Israel, as well as any other believers that there may be. Jesus will receive into His kingdom those gentiles who help Israelites, even in the face of being persecuted themselves by the beast.

You think that them receiving eternal life will be based solely on how they treat the Israelites? They won't be required to repent of their sins and put their faith in Christ to obtain eternal life, as scripture teaches? They just need to treat the Israelites well? Scripture does not teach this anywhere. Jesus would not contradict other scriptures by teaching that anyone can earn eternal life by their works. You are not understanding that the works Jesus talked about reflect that the sheep (the church) did those things because they had faith in Him and were doing the works that God prepares for those who are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[marks]

Regardless of what exactly is going on in the world during the time before Christ returns, people will still be saying "peace and safety" right up until Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night and then destroys them, according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. So, the idea that CrowCross has that things have to be completely peaceful and normal in the world when the rapture occurs is false and doesn't fit with what Jesus and Paul taught.

Is the sudden destruction at the end of the 7 years, when the world already knows it's in trouble? Or does the end come with a cataclysm, a sudden destruction, that goes on and on for the next 7 years until Jesus returns?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 16:1-21 (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Peace and safety?

Are you sure?

Yes, I'm sure. That's what Paul said and he knew what he was talking about. He wrote very plainly. He didn't write in symbolic text like is found throughout the book of Revelation. You make the mistake of interpreting everything you read in Revelation literally, thereby causing the text to contradict many other scriptures.

Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Do you believe that the day of the coming of the Lord as a thief in the night refers to His return? If so, you should see that Paul clearly indicated that those in spiritual darkness will be saying "peace and safety" right up until Jesus returns, at which point they will be destroyed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is the sudden destruction at the end of the 7 years, when the world already knows it's in trouble? Or does the end come with a cataclysm, a sudden destruction, that goes on and on for the next 7 years until Jesus returns?

The sudden destruction occurs on the day Jesus returns. That is very clear. Paul said "they shall not escape". You say they will escape for 7 years. Your beliefs do not line up with the text. Compare the following two passages.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Using scripture to interpret scripture, the "sudden destruction" that Paul referenced will come in the form of fire coming down upon the earth, as Peter described. How can a 7 year time period of tribulation follow that? Or how can that describe a 7 year time period of tribulation? Clearly, that is not the case. I see no way of reconciling your beliefs with passages like these.

 

[marks]

Scripture teaches that. Do you not accept what it says in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9? Do you think that salvation can occur any other way except by God's grace through faith? That is impossible because no one can ever earn salvation/eternal life. Only the work of Christ on the cross can provide eternal life. Our part is to trust in Him and His work, not to try to earn salvation with our own works. No one can ever do that.

This puts you squarely at odds with a passage that says otherwise.

Anyone in these 7 years will not be part of the church, to whom Paul wrote. You insist that this part doesn't mean what it says because you think these people will be us, but that cannot be, according to the words of the prophecy.

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It may well be that the two witnesses will be declaring that Israel is to be cared for, and those who do so show their fear of God, and God has mercy upon them.

This is where we need to remember that God changes His message of salvation in different times. What He told Adam was not what He told Noah, and was not what He told Abraham, and was not what He told Moses, and so on. He tells us something that is not what He told them, and had indicated in the prophecies that there will be more changes still to be seen.

Salvation in the millennium will be in obedience, the days for faith will be over when Jesus is here.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He didn't write in symbolic text like is found throughout the book of Revelation. You make the mistake of interpreting everything you read in Revelation literally, thereby causing the text to contradict many other scriptures.

You don't believe these plagues will be actual things visited upon the earth? That the sun won't really scorch people, the hailstones won't be like that?

 

[marks]

He didn't write in symbolic text like is found throughout the book of Revelation. You make the mistake of interpreting everything you read in Revelation literally, thereby causing the text to contradict many other scriptures.

Aren't you saying that the sheep goats judgment shouldn't be interpreted literally because that would contradict other passages?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rather, He was giving a prophecy to the people in front of Him. That the use of the language changed decades later, that doesn't mean Jesus' prophecy changed from when He gave it. Just like the KJV example I gave.

It does not matter one bit if the disciples He was speaking to understood who the elect were at that time or not. What matters is who the elect are at the time of His second coming. That's us. Christians. The church.

And even so, if you include the church in the gathering of the elect then where do you get the sheep who are gathered next with the nations? It doesn't work.

Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of everyone already being gathered before Christ at the time when the judgment will begin. It does not speak of a separate gathering of sheep from the gathering of the elect. The elect will be gathered and brought before Christ along with the non-elect. They will then be divided into two groups.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't believe these plagues will be actual things visited upon the earth? That the sun won't really scorch people, the hailstones won't be like that?

I don't because Revelation very clearly has a lot of symbolism and interpreting the plagues literally that way contradicts other scripture, like I've been trying to show you. Scripture clearly teaches that people, generally speaking, will be behaving like in the days of Noah, doing normal things (marrying, eating and drinking, etc.) and thinking they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath (1 Thess 5:2), and then sudden destruction will come upon them when Jesus returns and "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:3). That describes the conditions before Jesus returns and on the day He returns. It's not reasonable to think that the plagues described in Revelation will literally be occurring before He returns because that would contradict passages like Matthew 24:35-39 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4. I go to great lengths to try to avoid causing scripture to contradict itself. I do not feel that pre-tribs do the same.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Aren't you saying that the sheep goats judgment shouldn't be interpreted literally because that would contradict other passages?

No. Obviously, it's not talking about literal sheep and goats, but the descriptions of people appearing before Jesus and then either inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world or being sentenced to everlasting punishment are literal things that will occur at that time.

 

[marks]

It does not matter one bit if the disciples He was speaking to understood who the elect were at that time or not. What matters is who the elect are at the time of His second coming. That's us. Christians. The church.

This would make Jesus' prophecy not only unable to be properly understood, but to be actually misleading in the day He gave it.

Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of everyone already being gathered before Christ at the time when the judgment will begin. It does not speak of a separate gathering of sheep from the gathering of the elect. The elect will be gathered and brought before Christ along with the non-elect. They will then be divided into two groups.

The elect are gathered before He takes His throne, the nations after. The elect are gathered in a group, the nations are gathered in a separate group, and are then separated according to how they treated Jesus' brothers, the Israelites. Gentiles are divided sheep and goat according to how they treated Jesus' brothers, the elect, the chosen nation, the not-gentiles, Israel.

Much love!