The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[Davidpt]

It makes me wonder what the post tribbers think normal is.

This "normal" that the post tribbers present certainly isn't what jesus speaks of when He mentioned the social economical condition that will be related to the days of non or Lot.

I can't speak for all posttribbers, but there is nothing normal about the lives of saints during the 42 month reign. But the opposite is true in regard to those worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign. Life is good for them. If you don't believe me then prove it with Revelation 13. Show with Revelation 13 that anyone worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign is experiencing hell on earth at the time. I didn't say the same is true after it's 42 month reign. But I'm talking about during it's reign, thus during great tribulation.

Does any of the following sound like that they are experiencing hell on earth at the time?

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast

that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[Davidpt]

He already said he wrote it and then had AI rewrite it.

I can only imagine the key points could be restated in a couple of sentences each. I've been in this debate for decades, I've held various views at different times, I'm no stranger to this.

Much love!

Some members on this forum have complained in the past that I'm hard to follow at times. Probably because of my lack of good writing skills being the main reason why. Therefore, I'm using AI as a tool, not as a source of my theology. If AI can't be used as a source for better writing, then no source, as in non AI, should be allowed either. Fair is fair, right?

 

[marks]

Some members on this forum have complained in the past that I'm hard to follow at times. Probably because of my lack of good writing skills being the main reason why. Therefore, I'm using AI as a tool, not as a source of my theology. If AI can't be used as a source for better writing, then no source, as in non AI, should be allowed either. Fair is fair, right?

Did you have AI rewrite this post?

Just wondering.

 

[Davidpt]

Uh, no, there will indeed be scrambling at the rapture as JESUS vividly illustrated in the 10 virgin parable.
The writer of that article you posted is a lightweight.
A dreamer with endless commentary that is easily debunked.

I give it an F.

IOW, you are calling me a lightweight then giving me a F on top of that? I have to wonder if some of you have reading comprehension? Read the first paragraph in the OP. On a side note: hmmmm....maybe poor reading comprehension might explain how some can read the very same texts in the Bible then conclude Pretrib?

 

[Davidpt]

Did you have AI rewrite this post?

Just wondering.

I only used the AI to rewrite my thoughts pertaining to post #1 and #2. Everything else is just me. I hope you are not thinking something absurd. That because I sometimes use an AI to articulate my thoughts better for me, that this means everything I post I'm using an AI to better articulate my thoughts. So no, I don't use AIs to rewrite every single thing I post.

 

[shepherdsword]

IOW, you are calling me a lightweight then giving me a F on top of that? I have to wonder if some of you have reading comprehension? Read the first paragraph in the OP. On a side note: hmmmm....maybe poor reading comprehension might explain how some can read the very same texts in the Bible then conclude Pretrib?

Very few pick up a bible and read a pre-trib rapture. Most of them were indoctrinated with it as I was. I went to my town's 1st Baptist as a child every sunday and a week of bible camp every summer. This was in the early 70s while the Jesus movement was going on. Pre-trib was everywhere. I became post trib by studying the bible myself.

 

[marks]

I only used the AI to rewrite my thoughts pertaining to post #1 and #2. Everything else is just me. I hope you are not thinking something absurd. That because I sometimes use an AI to articulate my thoughts better for me, that this means everything I post I'm using an AI to better articulate my thoughts. So no, I don't use AIs to rewrite every single thing I post.

No, actually I thought that you had not used AI on that post, and I wanted to tell you I found it to be perfectly clear. You seem to be well spoken, at least to me.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not the wording of the passage that is determinate of your view, as you've "reinterpreted those parts that don't fit the GWTJ, because you don't accept that there is a dispensational change between the end of the times of the gentiles, and the 70th week of Daniel, the "time of Jacob's trouble". So therefore the sheep goats judgment won't make any sense as written, that the gentiles are judged by their works, and the Jews are gathered separately. Joel shows this same prophecy in ch 3, Israel returned to their land, then the nations gathered and judged.

Let's talk about this. So, you apparently think that only Gentiles are involved in the judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46 and they are judged by their works at that time. Do you not think that Jews will be judged by their works as well? That is what scripture teaches.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Do you think what is described in the above verses does not include Jews? Do you not think any Jews will have to bow before Christ to give an account of themselves and what they "hath done, whether it be good or bad"? Of course they will. All people, including all Jews and Gentiles will bow before Jesus Christ to give an account of themselves and what they have done. That is exactly what Matthew 25:31-46 portrays. There is no basis for seeing separate gathering and judgments for Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'll wait.

Let's just start with the question I asked in post #47. I'd like to know if you relate Matthew 13:47-50 to Matthew 25:41 or to Revelation 20:15 (I believe they all refer to the same event) and why.

 

[marks]

Let's talk about this. So, you apparently think that only Gentiles are involved in the judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46 and they are judged by their works at that time. Do you not think that Jews will be judged by their works as well? That is what scripture teaches.

What does the passage say? That after Jesus returns and takes his throne, having already gathered Israel to it's land, then the nations are gathered, separated according to their works, some welcomed into the kingdom, some sent to eternal fire.

First we need to get straight what this passage does and does not say, and whether you believe what it says or not. Again, Joel prophesied the very same thing:

Joel 3:1-2 (KJV)
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And of course this part goes on to show Jesus dividing the wicked from the righteous by their works, which is not what happens with the church. For the church what matters is whether we are baptized into Christ.

In my estimation we need to be able to account for these things without just claiming it all really means something else.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did Jesus teach on the Rapture of the Church? I'd say no, He did not, and that the Church, and it's distinctions, were revealed through Paul.

He taught about the gathering of the elect that will occur at His second coming. Scripture teaches that the elect are those who belong to Christ (Romans 8:31-34). So, I strongly disagree that Jesus didn't teach on the rapture. He didn't give added details like Paul did in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, but He referenced the same gathering of the elect and same future coming of Christ that Paul wrote about. Paul gave the added details that at that time the dead in Christ will be resurrected and together with those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.