The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[PS95]

The issue with your perspective here seems to be that you are assuming the premise proves the conclusion. You are essentially saying that every instance of προσκυνέω (proskyneō) directed toward Jesus must mean it's the kind of worship that belongs exclusively God. We will soon see it doesn't.
As pointed out in my previous post, this word essentially means to bow down or kneel in the sense of paying homage. In Scripture, many recipients who are clearly not God receive proskyneō so the mere presence of this word cannot establish deity.

Rman- You've forgotten I didn't just fall off of the turnip truck here. I was raised with much your skewed theology. It wasn't just an overnight decision on my part to leave it. It took me many years and much research and prayer. I did not take my decision lightly. So, if you think that anything you say to me has not already been delved into very deeply you would be very mistaken. I tire easily with this topic simply due to the fact that I have been steeped in this stuff since my childhood. I have lost my entire family due to shunning over my beliefs vs theirs (jw) for over 30 years now. Don't take that lightly. So, for you to insinuate that that am assuming anything without understanding your point is sort of hitting a nerve. So if you don't mind please refrain from empty assumptions.
I am of course fully aware that homage was given to the secular. However, you just dismiss what I am saying to you. You ignore questions that I ask you, and just plow ahead with the same rhetoric. It's always the same with all of you. -- This is really very simple to me, but you have the need to complicate it for the sake of your agenda. you put words in my mouth. Please don't do that. Before I go to your verses below- one of which I have already addressed- please reply to my very simple questions-
In the NT,
1. Do angels accept proskuneo?
2. Do godly men accept proskuneo?
3. Who do the angels say we are to give proskuneo only to?
4. Does The Lord Jesus accept proskuneo?

Let's take a look at your premise and see if it makes sense.

​

In Revelation 3:9, the synagogue of Satan will be made to give proskyneō (worship) to the church of Philadelphia. Did God perpetuate idolatry and suggest the church would be getting worshipped as God just because the church accepted the worship?​

I already addressed this in my last reply. I do not take that as literal- do you really suppose that JESUS will line up the "Jews" and line the church members and make them literally bow to them? I don't think that for a minute. C'mon now. He is saying that they will indeed be humbled and forced to admit that the church is His.- It is the fulfillment of
Isaiah 60:14 “The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you, And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.--
The church is being called, the city of God- The ZION of the Holy One of Israel.
To these who call themselves Jews and are not- to call the church they persecuted, the city of God/ZION is insanely humbling. They will be forced to admit TRUTH.

In 1 Sam 24:8 (LXX) David gave proskyneō to King Saul. Did king Saul act as Lord God Almighty because he accepted the same thing that Jesus did?​

​

In 1 Kings 1:23 (LXX) Nathaniel gave proskyneō to King David. Did Nathaniel willingly and knowingly give the kind of worship reserved exclusively for God to King David, and David knowingly accepted it with a smile?​

You've forgotten Daniel 2:6- it's even more so! It's obvious that the customs then were different- we do not bow to kings now. Worship is homage and homage is worship. They are synonyms. Here ya go-https://thesaurus.plus/related/homage/worship
Get that straight first. It was akin to what the Japanese do when bowing to each other. I recall Obama bowing to the Saudis. I would not bow to anyone myself, as I see it as a form of worship. Did the apostles agree with me? Yes. Peter certainly did not accept proskuneo. But I suppose you would? You would be wrong according to the angel in revelation who distinctly aid- DO NOT DO THAT- to John- Proskuneo only GOD.
So my point is really very simple- you can toss at me 9000 instances of proskueno given to the secular. I will just keep repeating that we are clearly now commanded NOT TO DO THAT and to ONLY GIVE IT TO GOD. Angels refuse it- Jesus accepted it. Give it only to God. It's really not that difficult. Unless you need it to be.
Think about this- in your mind proskuneo is nothing because it's given to secular prophets, kings etc.. so we are free to worship president trump? Or is that idolatry? Is it just honor? Does the angel tell you otherwise?
If I were to give proskuneo to a president (aka a king) - and I also gave proskuneo to God- how could you tell the difference? Is this merely an outward expression? WHAT is proskuneo to you, Rman? WHY SHOULD WE ONLY GIVE IT GOD ACCORDING TO PETER, JOHN, The ANGEL AND JESUS?

The point I am really trying to make here is that bowing in Hebrews culture is not always considered an act of God worship or meant to convey the idea that the giver and recipient of proskyneō believe they are being worshipped as God. So you can't just say "Jesus was worshipped, that means he is God" because that isn't how it works.

According to the Angel in Revelation and to Peter, proskuneo should only be given to God. I think that is sufficient. You don't. John had to learn- maybe you will now too. Culture changes when God says so--- unless they disobey Him.

In Revelation 5:13, you didn't include the fact that the Lamb is not the Throne Sitter who is being worshipped. So let's rewind a bit. Revelation 5:7 says "And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne." You can read forward from there and see that where they are worshipping is not where the Lamb is seated, rather where they are worshipping is the One on the throne the Lamb came and took the scroll from.

Baloney. The depths you guys will go to.. sigh. Food for thought-
1. "EVERY CREATURE in HEAVEN, EARTH ETC"- verse 13. -Rev 5
If "every creature in heaven" is speaking --- to Him who sites on the throne and to the Lamb..
Why is the Lamb not speaking there if He is a creature? It says "every" creature -- even those in heaven..

2. Rev 22:3 --And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
Not only do we have ONE throne with God and the Lamb on it- but here we also see His servants (duoloi) giving sacred service aka latreuo.
Proskuneo and latreuo are only to be given to God alone - according to JESUS--- Yet He Himself accepted it. ut oh.
Matt 4:10-- Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship (proskuneo) the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” (latreuo)

Who do the servants (duoloi) serve?
According to Paul-
Romans 1:1- --Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Paul is a servant (doulos) of Jesus.
So we have sacred service (latreou) and worship (proskuneo) being given to God and the LAMB on one throne by the servants (duolo) of Jesus Christ.
Now hold on- You said proskuneo can be given to anyone and proves nothing- what did Jesus say?
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship (proskuneo) the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” (latreuo) matt 4:10

and what did the Angel tell John?

Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”-- Rev 22:9

and Peter-
Acts 10:25-26
As Peter was about to enter, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet to worship him. / But Peter helped him up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

 

[PS95]

Continued-

Runningman-said

In Philippians 2:10, I would like to draw your attention to this part "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth" that you are attempting to conflate with Isaiah 45:23, Psalm 22:9, Romans 14:11, etc where it says they will bow before God. The issue is that Philippians 2:10 doesn't say they will bow before Jesus. It says "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow..."

Bowing at the name of Jesus is not the same statement as bowing to Jesus. "At the name" refers to the authority by which everyone will bow to the Father, hence Philippians 2:11 says "and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Ok so now we are bowing at authority of letters and not to Jesus? Gotcha. This is just pathetic, Rman. Are you seriously now going to blatantly deny that Jesus was bowed down to in the NT? You blew your cover here.. Here I thought your argument was that bowing to was not worship just secular homage. Now you deny it even happened? Sheesh.
God the FATHER IS GLORIFIED BY HIS SON- He is the very brightness of His father's GLORY. Heb 1:3
When we honor the SON-WE HONOR THE FATHER- EQUALLY- ONE WAY WE HONOR GOD IS WITH OUR WORSHIP.
You do the FATHER NO FAVORS BY REJECTING HIS SON AS WORTHY! WHAT YOU DO TO JESUS YOU DO TO HIM.
If you love the son the father loves you also.

Runningman- So you have not made a 1:1 connection between bowing to God and bowing to Jesus. I don't see your argument as convincing.

I will leave you with a thought on the only instruction in the NT regarding worship. Who did Jesus teach to worship in spirit and truth?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Woman at the well- we no longer need to worship in one place like Jerusalem- we now worship God in Spirit and Truth. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Truth. and by the Holy Spirit who lives in us- This is how we worship God in His SON and by the SPIRIT.
Not just lip service- or one location- but anywhere, anytime- deeply from the heart. We love because He first loved us.
When any 2 or 3 are gathered in my name I am there among them.

I imagine what you will say before you say it- so if you want to continue to kick your dead horse you may- but I may or may not respond. I am fully aware of the depths you are in and it's not a 123 thing. I strongly believe that unless you are open to understanding something to be so, it will not be. A hardened heart doesn't just appear overnight. It's earned by repetitive rejections. You seem like a nice guy Rman- and we have had multiple discussions over the years and on other sites as well. You are dug in and I understand having been there. I will be praying for you.

 

[doctrox]

1. The LXX rarely refers to "son of man" using the definite article...Meaning, depending on which manuscript you look at...This gives us important insight into the mind of early Greek-speaking Jews who penned the LXX.

The LXX is just another Jewish tradition, a joke that's being played on you.

 

[Wrangler]

1. Do angels accept proskuneo?
2. Do godly men accept proskuneo?
3. Who do the angels say we are to give proskuneo only to?
4. Does The Lord Jesus accept proskuneo?

Your questions are loaded, giving meaning to “accepting” something as evidenced by a negative; Since Person X did NOT object to proskuneo, that means they “accept“ it. This is indoctrinated rationalization, a far cry from Christ commanding his followers to worship him.

1. Did Jesus teach that he is YHWH incarnate?
2. Did Jesus instruct us to worship him?
3. Did Jesus instruct us to pray to him?
4. Did Angels instruct us to worship Jesus?
5. Did Angels instruct us to pray to Jesus?

 

[Brakelite]

For example, Mark 13:32 says "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." If that is a human speaking, saying the Father knows things he doesn't know, then no problem. If that is God talking, then that would be God confessing He doesn't know something.

Being a Christadelphian you don't appreciate the dynamic of Christ's human nature. When He was born as a child in Bethlehem, He was fully human and grew up learning and maturing as any normal child would, and not everything was revealed to Him at that time. His true identity was revalued over time, such that by the time He was 12, He was able to communicate with great wisdom among the rulers in the temple without formal education, "going about His Father's business".

 

[Dan Clarkston]

When He was born as a child in Bethlehem, He was fully human

Except for that without sin part.

He never sinned or made any mistakes.

Before He went in to the ministry, I'd imagine as a perfect man He was in high demand as a skilled craftsman in business.

 

[Wrangler]

.

Before He went in to the ministry, I'd imagine as a perfect man He was in high demand as a skilled craftsman in business.

Years ago my pastor said Jesus was morally perfect, not technically perfect; meaning, not every angle he cut as a carpenter was perfect or needed to be to be the Messiah. Thoughts?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Years ago my pastor said Jesus was morally perfect, not technically perfect; meaning, not every angle he cut as a carpenter was perfect or needed to be to be the Messiah. Thoughts?

I'd suggest that you stop listening to "pastors" who claim Jesus fell short of God's absolute perfection

If Jesus ever just once fell short of God's absolute perfection then that would mean we have no Savior and we are all still in our sins on our way to hell.

Feel free to join that "pastor" on the highway to hell if you so desire..., I will not be joining in.

 

[Brakelite]

Years ago my pastor said Jesus was morally perfect, not technically perfect; meaning, not every angle he cut as a carpenter was perfect or needed to be to be the Messiah. Thoughts?

Sure. He didn't make stuff as He formed Adam from dust... Jesus was fully human and operated as such intentionally. But you can bet your bottom dollar that He did everything with great care and love for the recipient, and focus on His craft so there would be no returns.

 

[amigo de christo]

The administrators on that other forum sure do love the RCC

They will not allow truth to be spoken = even deleting the Holy Scriptures.

Marvel not my friend , that many are in league with and support such a thing .
Remember when i warned us that A HARLOT has infiltrated much and most all of even christendom .
OH IT HAS my friend . IT surley surely has indeed .
But as i often say , JESUS the GLORIOUS CHRIST of GOD has HIS SHEEP david .
And in the direction of a HO
they surely will not GO .
For they walk by Faith in CHRIST and by HIS SPIRIT do they flow . Ye can hear the wind but cannot tell from whence it cometh
SO too is the Spirit . Many go with the flow of another spirit , and that spirit has indeed
convinced them it be GOD , it be LOVE and its peace BE OF GOD . OH , but david , THE SHEEP DO NOT HEED IT .
FOR , WELL JESUS HAS THE SHEEP my friend . AND THANK GOD HE DOES cause we would be but blind if NOT FOR HIM .
Now to the trenches one and all . The hour is late and we gots MASSIVE tribulations coming right at us
and sooner than most realize . And our cry is , FAITHFUL UNTO THE CHRIST OF GOD , to the last and final breath ,
even unto death . And they loved not their lives
and overcame by the blood of Christ , faithful unto death . Let GOD be true but every man a liar .
And TO GOD BE TRUE and test all things , people , even animals that can speak , even angels ,
AND DO SO against THE WORD OF GOD . For anything , any voice , any spirit , even thought that be contrary
TO such lovely words , WELL ITS A LIE and NOT the TRUTH . BUY THE TRUTH and SELL HER NOT .
ITs gonna get harsh agaisnt the true non conforming sheep my friend . Fear them not
what is the chaff to the wheat . JESUS IS OUR HOPE , AND OUR SALVATION . A lovely HOME awaits us at the end
of our faith .

 

[Justified]

The so called reformation was built upon scripture twisting and cherry picking.

Nobody expects those that don't accept the whole counsel of God to understand




Those following a drunk (Luther) and a murderer (Calvin) leads to walking with the devil while being deceived in to thinking they are walking with the Lord.

Too bad some folk choose faulty spiritual leaders to follow which they will regret for all eternity

So, as with everything else, you just sit in prideful, hypocritical, self-righteous judgement, rather than respond directly to questions and providing support for your those judgmental claims. You may claim everyone else is following false teachers, but you’re just following yourself.

 

[David in NJ]

Your questions are loaded, giving meaning to “accepting” something as evidenced by a negative; Since Person X did NOT object to proskuneo, that means they “accept“ it. This is indoctrinated rationalization, a far cry from Christ commanding his followers to worship him.

1. Did Jesus teach that he is YHWH incarnate?
2. Did Jesus instruct us to worship him?
3. Did Jesus instruct us to pray to him?
4. Did Angels instruct us to worship Jesus?
5. Did Angels instruct us to pray to Jesus?

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
14Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

​

 

[David in NJ]

Being a Christadelphian you don't appreciate the dynamic of Christ's human nature. When He was born as a child in Bethlehem, He was fully human and grew up learning and maturing as any normal child would, and not everything was revealed to Him at that time. His true identity was revalued over time, such that by the time He was 12, He was able to communicate with great wisdom among the rulers in the temple without formal education, "going about His Father's business".

Keep this in mind = JESUS did not need to be told who HE was, even as a child.

Also, JESUS was a unique child in this aspect = HE was not conceived in sin as all of us are.

One more, JESUS never sinned = very strange and different child then everyone else!!!

 

[Wrangler]

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

But not worship or prayer. Odd huh?

 

[Lambano]

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
14Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

But not worship or prayer. Odd huh?

That's pretty much covered by "honor, glory, and blessings".

 

[Wrangler]

That's pretty much covered by "honor, glory, and blessings".

Agh huh. Words can mean whatever you want. Not.

 

[Lambano]

Agh huh. Words can mean whatever you want. Not.

So, you want to wrangle about the meaning of words? What does "worship" mean?

 

[Wrangler]

So, if you want to wrangle about the meaning of words, what does "worship" mean?

You are wrangling with words. That's pretty much covers it.

 

[Lambano]

You are wrangling with words. That's pretty much covers it.

This whole thread is about the meaning of words, like "prayer".

Just what does "worship" mean? AI search came back with "to give reverence and adoration". Like blessing and honor and glory, in the words of Revelation quoted by David from Jersey.

'The performance of acts of worship rests upon the assumption that there is a realm of being that transcends the ordinary (i.e., secular or profane) “world” of the worshipper.' (Encyclopedia Britannica online.)

I would have to conclude from scripture to the records of the early church to today that Christians have ALWAYS regarded Jesus Christ as being from and being part of the realm of being that transcends the ordinary world. We then can spend the centuries debating where Jesus Christ ranks relative to the Father within that realm of being that transcends the ordinary world. And how much reverence and adoration that ranking deserves.

 

[Lambano]

I would have to conclude from scripture to the records of the early church to today that Christians have ALWAYS regarded Jesus Christ as being from and being part of the realm of being that transcends the ordinary world.

And speaking of the meaning of words (and the concepts they describe): Talking to beings who exist in a realm of being that transcends the ordinary world but not seen as physically present in the ordinary world is typically called "prayer".