The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

Actually he showed you where you were wrong.

With something as important as prayer in Christianity, we Christians should have reasonable expectation that if praying to Jesus were an instruction, it would have been stated just as clearly as it is stated in regards to praying to the Father in Matthew 6:6,9. The alternative is that God, the prophets, Jesus, the disciples must have forgotten to inform us what to do or they didn't find it necessary to talk about.

With that being said, do you pray like how Jesus taught in Matthew 6:6,9?

 

[amigo de christo]

If you cannot SEE the Answers from Scripture = how will you come to the Way the Truth and the Life???

IF i have told you earthly things and YE believe NOT , How then will you BELIEVE if it tell you heavenly things .
DO you ever get the feeling and the FACT that this generation IS IN DEADLY DIRE DANGER AND TROUBLE .
For many love that which is of the flesh , NOT THE SPIRIT .
Many love that which wayward man will teach
BUT NOT that which THE SPIRIT INSPIRED , aka THINK ALL THEM LOVELY BIBLICAL WORDS ,
And HEED NOT the SPIRIT WHO DO GUIDE US INTO ...............drum roll ...........................................
TRUTH . AND NOT LIES and fables . OH the SPIRIT IS REAL DAVID . OH ITS REAL INDEED .
ANd its not not a what , ITS A WHO . AND THAT H OLY GOD
which does so guide HIS SHEEP by HIS SPIRIT , many now dressed in wool , HAVE NOT .
For they have come by means of carnal love and flesh to another jesus david . Another jesus my friend .
AND THE SPIRIT dont lead us to ANOTHER jesus . BUT TO THE JESUS and with a love FOR THE TRUTH my friend upon our hearts .

 

[amigo de christo]

So now a word for us all .
THIS ecumeincal inclusive interfaith generation , OH IT HAS BOUGHT A LIE .
And cant no lie save them . JESUS CAN . BUT JESUS IS TRUTH , as ARE HIS WORDS TRUTH
WHO we love IS WHOSE we are , and thus whose WORDS we love is whose we are . OH it be bible time all right .

 

[Wrangler]

If you cannot SEE the Answers from Scripture = how will you come to the Way the Truth and the Life???

Another words, you are a false witness in saying or implying the questions in the referenced post were answered in this thread.
Me: Where is the evidence for X?
You: It's in there (somewhere).

 

[David in NJ]

Another words, you are a false witness in saying or implying the questions in the referenced post were answered in this thread.
Me: Where is the evidence for X?
You: It's in there (somewhere).

Best lol of the day - so far

 

[PS95]

It was said specifically to the church of Philadelphia. The messages to the seven churches didn't apply equally to all of the different congregations. It could be a literal lining up and bowing kind of situation, a kind of public humiliation for the bad guys and a public honor for the good guys.

I don't think the Philadelphia church is only composed of those who were in it at that time. I see those churches as representative of today as well. There are certainly still those today who have found the fake Jews to be liars. I'll give you the point that it is possible it's literal, but I don't see it that way, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Do you see my point about humility? It's pretty clear-Isaiah 60:14 “The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you, And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.--
They are fake Jews- liars- and they are made to see the CHURCH being called, the city of God- the New Jerusalem, Zion! Imagine that. nothing could be more humiliating for these false Jews. They are seeing truth for once and revealed as the liars. If you need a literal bowing then the only other option I see is that they are being made to admit by "bowing" to these believers because Christ is in them/ God is them via His Spirit- Ro 8- and ultimately that is where their proskuneo is directed. It is an admission to the truth. After all, those who conquer will sit on Jesus' throne with Him. Rev 3:21 - And as Jesus sits on His Father's throne as we will see later- But here- note that the Spirit is in us -Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ. Similarly, as we worship God the Father thru His Son- we are worshipping Father and Son but Father thru the Son.
Romans 8:9- 11
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Another thought is this is part of the inheritance of those saints in Christ.- Jesus spoke of those who will judge the 12 tribes of Israel and Paul spoke of believers judging angels. At any rate- this would all be in the glorified body state. Will glorified bodies of man be given worship? idk. Who can fathom what any of that will be like. Several possibilities here- it's not real clear. Makes no difference to me either way.
Jesus was given proskuneo by man when He was in the flesh prior to glorfication. Yes, he certainly did accept it.

Let's look at it. I don't necessarily agree that bowing equates to what constitutes real worship. So if I were to bow, or if someone bowed to me, I can speak for myself that I wouldn't be bowing to someone because I thought they were God. I would bow if it was appropriate for the situation, in line with cultural norms, etc.
That being said, is literal bowing the way Jesus defined worship? Jesus said "the true worshippers" will worship the Father and "spirit and truth." So bowing isn't spirit and truth worship. The kind of bowing that Jesus and others received throughout the Bible would not fall in line with the way Jesus defined true worship. The only commandment on who to give "true worship in spirit and truth" to in the Bible is the Father (John 4:23,24) and there are no instances of this ever being applied to Jesus.
I agree with what you said that bowing can be a form of worship, there is evidence of that, but it isn't always definitively worship. You shouldn't do that if you feel it's wrong.

I never said bowing was all there is to worship. Not sure why you would say that. It's a part of it- but it's external as is prostration- & kneeling before. What is internal should be what prompts the external -- adoration, reverence, obedience, loyalty, love, devotion, etc in the Spirit and in Truth- I already spoke to that- in the other post --we worship via Holy Spirit in us in Christ who is THE truth.
John 14:6, see Romans 8:9-11 again.
We should not just lightly dismiss external worship as if it matters not to God- see Psalm 95
But we know God looks at our hearts. The two should be in sync.

Commenting on Revelation 22, there are speaker changes without so much as an introduction as to who is speaking. In Rev 22:6, it says "Behold the angel said to me..." then v. 7 says "Behold I am coming soon..." so already this sounds like Jesus talking. Then John falls down to worship. After that, the speaker says "Do not do that... worship God." So this could just as easily be understood as the resurrected, ascended, glorified, exalted Jesus giving an instruction to not worship him. It's not decisive, but there is more than one way to look at this passage.

Ok-I see where you get hitched up... Let's look at it more carefully..
Rev 22 begins with the angel speaking-- 22:1.
again we see in verses 3-5 the singular throne of God and the Lamb.- the throne of God and the Lamb will be in it- "they" reign forever"
Moving on.. Verse 6 is still the angel who speaking for Jesus, obviously. There is nothing to indicate a change in speaker at all. Angels are the envoys and mouthpieces of God here as in the O.T., and entitled to speak in his name or in that of Christ.
Read this chapter slowly- it flows and reveals. verse 6 plainly says God sent His angel to speak. v 7 Jesus is coming v 20.
Verse 12- Jesus is coming to repay each of us- He is the Alpha and Omega= First and Last (Isaiah 44:6)
Verse 16 revealed Jesus tell us plainly that He sent His angel to testify to us.
Verse 20 Who is coming? Amen, Come Lord Jesus.

Here's some food for thought. Why is he called the Lamb if he is not a creature? Are lambs creatures?

That' silly. Jesus has many titles ( Word of God and Lord of Lords, ALpha and Omega being just three others) and you know that lamb signifies His sacrifice for us. Also recall the lamb's blood on the doorposts for Passover? In Him is LIFE.

Let's take a look at this too.

Throne is singular and there are two referents, God and the Lamb, then there are multiples servants serving one referent. Notice John didn't say "their servants" will server "them." The idea being conveyed here is that God and the Lamb aren't on the same throne. You can get an idea of this based on the context you quoted which immediately contradicts the idea of a shared throne.

There is throne distinction for God and the Lamb throughout Revelation. Revelation 7:10 says "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." The Lamb isn't the throne sitter in Revelation Rev. 7:10, nor the throne sitter in Rev. 5:6-7.
Revelation 22:3 is about shared rulership, not shared identity, hence when it says "His servants shall server Him" it is referring to God (singular person) and not "them."

Rev 3:21- The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

 

[PS95]

Now I need to wrap this comment up because I have things to do, but I will come back to the rest of what you said later. Let me leave you with something to think about.

Revelation 22:3 says "His servants shall serve Him." Now, is God the Father ever called a servant even once in the Bible? No. But is the Lamb repeatedly called a servant of God? Yes (Isaiah 42:1, Matthew 12:8, Mark 10:45, Luke 22:27, Acts 3:13, 3:26, etc.)

The Lamb is also a servant who serves the throne sitter. Just something to think about. Be back when I have time.

Yep- Jesus came to serve us not to be served. Matt 20:28 ---He came to give His life for us.

Luke 22:27
For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines? But I am among you as one who serves.
Philippians 2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

His humility is part of what makes Him so GREAT.
Of course Jesus served His Father while on earth. What sort of Q is that? and yet, He also served us. None of that lowers Him. He willingly lowered Himself. It exalts Him! He is exalted-
Psalm 46:10 He says, “Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”

Psalm 57:5- Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory be over all the earth.

Again- Psalm 108:5 Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory be over all the earth.

1 Chron 29:11 Yours, Lord, is the greatness and the power
and the glory and the majesty and the splendor,
for everything in heaven and earth is yours.
Yours, Lord, is the kingdom;
you are exalted as head over all.

Isaiah 57:12 - For this is what the high and exalted One says—
he who lives forever, whose name is holy:
“I live in a high and holy place,
but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit,
to revive the spirit of the lowly
and to revive the heart of the contrite.”
etc...


Psalm 100:3 - Know that the LORD is God. It is He who made us, and we are His; we are His people, and the sheep of His pasture.

We are to serve Him. Col 3 23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, 24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve
When we serve Christ- we are serving our Father too. There is no other way.

Paradox? Sure is! Of divine power manifested through humility and self-sacrifice. Jesus' servanthood is in opposition to our worldly concepts of leadership, authority and power,- greatness through humbled service, sacrifice and unparalleled love. God is LOVE. Who has greater love?
I suppose how you look at it make a difference. In my mind, God serves us- daily. My bread, the rain, His Spirit, etc. Every day He gives and shows His by serving our needs and more. Ultimately, the Father served us by giving us His Son. We don't serve as if God needed anything from us though. We desperately need what He serves us.

 

[marks]

but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Taking on the form of a servant, becoming obedient, these can only be said of someone who was not a servant, and not obedient. Only a sinner or a Sovereign could be described that way. We know Jesus was not a sinner, therefore He must be sovereign.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Taking on the form of a servant, becoming obedient, these can only be said of someone who was not a servant, and not obedient.

That’s a fine bit of inductive reasoning there! Very fine, indeed. How about you answer the deductive questions?

1. Did Jesus teach that he is YHWH incarnate?
2. Did Jesus instruct us to worship him?
3. Did Jesus instruct us to pray to him?
4. Did Angels instruct us to worship Jesus?
5. Did Angels instruct us to pray to Jesus?

if any answer is yes, please cite the verse. For instance, was man created on Day 6? See Genesis 1:24-26

 

[marks]

That’s a fine bit of inductive reasoning there! Very fine, indeed. How about you answer the deductive questions?


if any answer is yes, please cite the verse. For instance, was man created on Day 6? See Genesis 1:24-26

What, and deflect from what I was saying? Why? Do you not like what I said so you want to talk about something else? Yet you say it's a fine bit of reasoning?

Jesus took on the form of a servant . . . What form was He in before? The form of a ruler? The very form of God?

Jesus became obedient . . . what was He before? Disobedient? Or sovereign?

Jesus humbled Himself . . . what was He before? Prideful? Or transcendant?

Jesus is the Lord God, still He came to serve. Jesus is the Sovereign of all creation, and He became obedient. He is the Transcendant Creator, and He humbled Himself.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

What, and deflect from what I was saying? Why?

Because what you are saying is a deflection from what I was saying and asking.

.An honest person has no problem answering a simple question. Only a dishonest person avoids answering a simple question

Perfect assessment.

 

[marks]

Because what you are saying is a deflection from what I was saying and asking.



Perfect assessment.

I'm not going to play your game.

You replied to my post but with deflection - your deflection - you replied - and I'm not playing along.

If you have something to say about what I wrote, fine, share it, otherwise, I'm not interested.





"An honest person has no problem answering a simple question. Only a dishonest person avoids answering a simple question"

Did you stop to think that through before quoting it? Is there really no other reason that you would not answer a simple question? Think about it!

I'm not enabling your deflection through your "simple question". If you want to comment on what I wrote, feel free to do so.

 

[marks]

With that being said, do you pray like how Jesus taught in Matthew 6:6,9?

Do you?

Matthew 6:9-15 KJV
9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11) Give us this day our daily bread.
12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do you pray that you will be forgiven in the same way that you forgive others? Knowing that unless you do forgive others, that you will not be forgiven? Think this through before you answer.

Jesus made 1 comment about His instructed prayer, "Because if you forgive others, your heavenly Father will forgive you".

Paul (taught by Jesus, inspired to write by the Holy Spirit) wrote that we are to forgive others the same as God has already forgiven us.

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

In the one case, we are to ask for forgiveness the same as we have forgiven others, in the other case, we are to forgive others being already forgiven.

Considering that these two teachings are exactly opposite one from the other, which would you say characterizes your prayers?

For myself, knowing God has forgiven me, I forgive others.

Considering that Jesus taught those who were under the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Horeb, and that this covenant was based on "blessing in return for obedience" (If you do what I say, you will be my special people), His teaching in this place should be understood in that context.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not going to play your game.

You replied to my post but with deflection

You are the one who is playing and deflecting. Again, as @Armour of God said, An honest person has no problem answering a simple question. Only a dishonest person avoids answering a simple question.