Daniel 9:25 - the messiah the prince

[TribulationSigns]

You claim that the temple was Christ's body.

No, I did not merely "claim" this. The inspired text itself explicitly states it: "But he spake of the temple of his body" (John 2:21). The interpretation is not my invention, nor is it a spiritualized guess. The Holy Spirit through John tells us exactly what Jesus meant. If you reject that identification, you are not arguing against my interpretation—you are arguing against the inspired explanation given by Scripture itself.

So I merely substituted your claim for the plain words of Inspired Scripture.

This is a false accusation. I did not replace Scripture; I followed Scripture. John himself moves from the literal temple misunderstanding of the Jews to the true meaning of Christ's words. The Jews understood Jesus' statement according to the immediate physical context, but John tells us they misunderstood Him: "But he spake of the temple of his body." The "plain words" of Scripture include verse 21. You cannot isolate Jesus' statement while ignoring the inspired commentary that follows it.

The resulting context is your context, not mine.

No, the context belongs to the Holy Spirit, not to either of us. The context is determined by the whole passage, not by the assumptions of the reader. The Jews' interpretation was based on the physical temple, but John's inspired explanation reveals that their understanding was incomplete. The question is not whether the Jews initially thought Jesus meant Herod's temple—the text tells us they did. The question is whether they understood Him correctly. John clearly says they did not.

So you're complaining about the Scripture without your context, and your're complaining about the Scripture with your context.

This is a meaningless accusation because I am not complaining about Scripture at all. I am pointing out that you are stopping at the same misunderstanding the Jews had. The Jews appealed to the physical temple because they did not understand the spiritual reality Christ was revealing. The very error John records is that they interpreted Christ's words only according to the earthly structure standing before them.

Such is the nonsense resulting when your gnostified hyperspiritualizations are substituted for the inerrant words of Inspired Scripture..

Calling something "gnostic" does not make it so. Gnosticism denies the goodness of creation and rejects the incarnation of Christ. But identifying Christ's body as the true temple is not Gnosticism—it is the explicit teaching of the New Testament. In fact, refusing to see Christ as the fulfillment of the temple imagery risks doing the opposite: clinging to the shadow while ignoring the reality.

Jesus Himself taught that the temple pointed beyond itself: "I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple" (Matthew 12:6). The author of Hebrews likewise explains that the earthly sanctuary was a "shadow of heavenly things" (Hebrews 8:5). Recognizing fulfillment is not "hyperspiritualization"; it is biblical interpretation.

The real problem is not that I have spiritualized Scripture. The problem is that you have accepted the Jews' initial misunderstanding as the final meaning, while the inspired apostle explicitly corrects that misunderstanding. Ouches!

The plain reading of John 2 is not merely "Jesus spoke about a physical building." The plain reading includes the inspired explanation: "He spake of the temple of His body."

Deal with it. Selah!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why can't it simply be determined from the text itself? But that doesn't mean we disregard relevant texts outside of these texts. These other texts would be a 2nd witness, so to speak.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Notice what verse 25 plainly says---to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks

That equals 69 weeks are involved in regard unto the Messiah the Prince.

Then in verse 26 we notice this--And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

Except we need to also consider verse 27 before deciding about when He is cutoff---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

That means from the time that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince until He is cutoff, it involves 69 and 1/2 weeks. Once these 69 and 1/2 weeks have gone by, the Messiah the Prince has already come and has already left. Unless one has a dispute that His first coming happened. Or unless one has a dispute that His ascension back into heaven occurred shortly after he was cutoff, and that He is still bodily in heaven as we speak.

Compared with---and the people of the prince that shall come

We know this verse should be understood like such--the prince that shall come--as in a future event in relation to the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. Therefore, it is not reasonable to take the prince that shall come to be meaning the Messiah unless one has an answer for what coming of Christ took place after the first 69 and 1/2 weeks, yet prior to His bodily return in the end of this age.

I don't have an answer for that nor would anyone have an answer for that if they view the coming in Matthew 24:30 in the same manner as me, that it is meaning His bodily return in the end of this age.

No matter how you look at it, this part--the prince that shall come--involves a coming of a prince post that of the first 69 and 1/2 weeks.

That is simply not true. It's talking about a prince who was to come at some point in the future from the time the prophecy was given. Nothing in the text says that the prince that shall come had to come some time after the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. I don't know how you are coming to that conclusion, but I'm not seeing any basis for it at all. The text does not say that the prince who shall come would come after the Messiah comes.

 

[jeffweeder]

No, I did not merely "claim" this. The inspired text itself explicitly states it: "But he spake of the temple of his body" (John 2:21). The interpretation is not my invention, nor is it a spiritualized guess. The Holy Spirit through John tells us exactly what Jesus meant. If you reject that identification, you are not arguing against my interpretation—you are arguing against the inspired explanation given by Scripture itself.

Jesus raised the temple in 3 days long before the Physical one was destroyed. They just didnt have eyes to see that the temple was all about him. His presence would dwell else where...in those that believe on him.

There is no doubt the Olivet discourse speaks of the physical temples future destruction in 70AD as Jesus taught his already born again presence filled disciples this.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Jesus raised the temple in 3 days long before the Physical one was destroyed. They just didnt have eyes to see that the temple was all about him. His presence would dwell else where...in those that believe on him.

There is no doubt the Olivet discourse speaks of the physical temples future destruction in 70AD as Jesus taught his already born again presence filled disciples this.

The problem with your argument is that you are still treating the temple as primarily a physical structure, while Jesus Himself had already revealed that the true Temple was His body. John does not leave us guessing: “But he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:21). That is not my interpretation—it is the Holy Spirit’s explanation through Scripture.

You say, “Jesus raised the temple in three days long before the physical one was destroyed.” Exactly. Because the point was never about stones and architecture. The physical temple was only a shadow pointing to Christ. “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands…” (Hebrews 9:11). The earthly temple was temporary; Christ is the fulfillment.

The mistake is assuming Matthew 24:1–2 is simply Jesus predicting the demolition of a Jewish building. The disciples were looking at the outward glory of the temple, but Jesus was announcing the judgment and removal of the Old Covenant order. Which occur at the Cross WHEN CHRIST WAS CUTOFF!

Jesus had already said, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21:43). He was not merely talking about bricks falling down; He was declaring that the covenant privileges of unbelieving Israel were being taken away!

Furthermore, when Jesus spoke of His coming and gathering His elect, He said: “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds” (Matthew 24:31). That is not language about a construction project or a building collapse. It is covenantal and spiritual language concerning His kingdom.

So the irony is that you say people “didn’t have eyes to see that the temple was all about Him,” but then you return to focusing on the physical temple instead of the reality to which it pointed. LOL! The very thing Jesus was revealing is that the old shadow was passing away because the true Temple had arrived.

The question is not whether stones were eventually removed in A.D. 70. The question is whether we understand what Christ was actually teaching: the earthly temple was never the final dwelling place of God. Christ "IS" the Temple, and those united to Him become the dwelling place of God (1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:21–22).

Scripture already gave us the interpretation: “He spake of the temple of his body.” When the Holy Spirit explains the symbol, we should not replace His explanation with speculation about a building.

 

[jeffweeder]

The problem with your argument is that you are still treating the temple as primarily a physical structure, while Jesus Himself had already revealed that the true Temple was His body.

That is what I said.

That doesn't negate the fact that Jesus was speaking of the physical Temple in Matt 24.
Do you think Jesus was saying what he had raised in 3 days would be destroyed?
How can that be?

 

[covenantee]

No, I did not merely "claim" this. The inspired text itself explicitly states it: "But he spake of the temple of his body" (John 2:21). The interpretation is not my invention, nor is it a spiritualized guess. The Holy Spirit through John tells us exactly what Jesus meant. If you reject that identification, you are not arguing against my interpretation—you are arguing against the inspired explanation given by Scripture itself.

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into His body of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in His body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

1. Jesus was already in His body. Why did He go into His body again?
2. Why had He allowed them that sold and bought, into His body?

 

[claninja]

Why can't it simply be determined from the text itself? But that doesn't mean we disregard relevant texts outside of these texts. These other texts would be a 2nd witness, so to speak.


Notice what verse 25 plainly says---to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks

That equals 69 weeks are involved in regard unto the Messiah the Prince.

Then in verse 26 we notice this--And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

Except we need to also consider verse 27 before deciding about when He is cutoff---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

That means from the time that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince until He is cutoff, it involves 69 and 1/2 weeks. Once these 69 and 1/2 weeks have gone by, the Messiah the Prince has already come and has already left. Unless one has a dispute that His first coming happened. Or unless one has a dispute that His ascension back into heaven occurred shortly after he was cutoff, and that He is still bodily in heaven as we speak.

Compared with---and the people of the prince that shall come

We know this verse should be understood like such--the prince that shall come--as in a future event in relation to the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. Therefore, it is not reasonable to take the prince that shall come to be meaning the Messiah unless one has an answer for what coming of Christ took place after the first 69 and 1/2 weeks, yet prior to His bodily return in the end of this age.

I don't have an answer for that nor would anyone have an answer for that if they view the coming in Matthew 24:30 in the same manner as me, that it is meaning His bodily return in the end of this age.

No matter how you look at it, this part--the prince that shall come--involves a coming of a prince post that of the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. And if the Messiah is meant, what then in the NT explains the Messiah coming, in any sense, post the first 69 and 1/2 weeks, yet prior to His bodily return in the end of this age?

Anyone that agrees that the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah, yet takes Matthew 24:30 to be involving Christ's bodily return in the end of this age, are clearly confused about things and that no one should take any of their arguments serious that the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah when they can't even remotely prove it via the NT. Let's totally disregard that Scripture interprets Scripture. In this case let's just use speculation interprets Scripture.

You, OTOH, are not taking Matthew 24:30 to be meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age. Therefore, I'm not meaning you as well. But unless you are correct about Matthew 24:30 though, you too have zero support via the NT that the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah, since something in the NT has to explain this coming. Except you can't use Matthew 24:30 to explain this coming if you are not interpreting Matthew 24:30 correctly to begin with. That would be a fallacy of some sort, to use something untrue to try and and prove something with.

Even without going outside of Daniel 9:25-27, we already know from these verses alone, the following facts.

that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks---And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

That 69 and 1/2 weeks are involved and that the Messiah has already come. But in 26b it involves a prince that shall come sometime post that of the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. In this context shall come does not equal already came earlier. It means shall come in the future, sometime post the first 69 and 1/2 weeks.

You seem to have a special rule where everything should be determined from the text alone without having to go outside of the text. Which then makes one wonder what is the point of the NT if Daniel 9:25-27 alone can explain everything? Except without the NT, how would we ever know from Daniel 9:25-27 alone that after the Messiah is cutoff, He eventually bodily left the planet altogether and is still bodily gone some 2000 years later?

No way in a million years could we ever determine that from Daniel 9:25-27 alone.

Maybe your approach to theology differs from my approach? I think Scripture should interpret Scripture when possible.

Obviously, which would not include you in this case, but anyone that insists the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah, yet takes Matthew 24:30 to be meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age, does not agree that Scripture interprets Scripture. Because if they did agree, Matthew 24:30 alone would be proving to them the Messiah can't remotely be meant as the prince that shall come. Because now they have to explain what other coming recorded in the NT explains the coming meant in 26b if they still stubbornly insist the prince that shall come is meaning the Messiah.?

First things first, the NT NOWHERE explains the meaning of Daniel 9. Any such use of external framework or comparing NT passages you personally think are similar and maybe explain it, are purely speculation interpreting scripture, same goes for me.

That being said, if we examine only the Masoretic Text of Daniel 9:27, the phrase “he shall make a strong covenant” contains a pronoun whose antecedent could refer either to the Messiah or to the prince mentioned in Daniel 9:26. If we are honest about the Hebrew grammar, the text itself does not identify the antecedent with absolute certainty. If one prefers a strict proximity argument, however, the nearest antecedent is “prince,” making him the more likely grammatical referent. Nevertheless, nothing in the grammar or immediate context requires the prince of verse 26b to be a separate and distinct figure from “Messiah the Prince” of verse 25. The assertion that Daniel necessarily refers to two different princes is therefore an interpretive conclusion based on a particular theological framework, not a grammatical necessity demanded by the Hebrew text.

In contrast, the Old Greek Septuagint makes a stronger distinction between the figure in verse 26b and “the Christ, the Prince” of verse 25. In the Greek text, the relevant clause reads:

• “The kingdom of the nations will destroy the city and the sanctuary with the Christ.”

This construction presents the Christ as being associated with the destruction rather than identifying Him as the agent who performs it or as the ruler responsible for it.

Furthermore, in verse 27, the Old Greek differs significantly from the Masoretic Text. The subject of the verb is not a personal pronoun referring back to either the Christ or the prince; rather, the text presents the covenant itself as the grammatical subject. It states that the covenant will prevail or remain in force for many. Therefore, unlike the Masoretic Text, the Old Greek does not contain an ambiguous masculine pronoun in verse 27 whose antecedent must be identified.

The Theodotion Greek text, however, differs from both the Masoretic Text and the Old Greek in verse 26b:

• “[He] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the coming prince.”

Grammatically, this construction also contains an implied subject, since the verb διαφθερεῖ (“he shall destroy”) does not explicitly state who performs the action. The nearest explicit nominative subject is the anointed one from the preceding clause (χρῖσμα), making him the strongest grammatical candidate for the implied subject. The phrase “the coming prince” (τῷ ἡγουμένῳ τῷ ἐρχομένῳ) is in the dative case and functions with σύν (“with”), indicating association rather than agency. Therefore, on a strictly grammatical reading, Theodotion most naturally presents the anointed one as the implied subject who destroys the city and sanctuary together with the coming prince.

As for verse 27 in Theodotion, the phrase “he shall confirm a covenant” (καὶ δυναμώσει διαθήκην πολλοῖς) likewise does not provide an explicit subject. The antecedent must be inferred from the context. The possible candidates are the previously mentioned figures—the coming prince or the anointed one/Christ—but the Greek text itself does not explicitly identify which figure is intended.

So, regarding the identity of the prince, the Masoretic Text does not provide a clear grammatical or contextual distinction requiring that the prince in verse 26b be a different figure from “Messiah the Prince” in verse 25. The argument that these are two separate princes is therefore based on interpretation rather than an explicit grammatical distinction within the text itself.

In contrast, the Theodotion Greek text creates a clearer distinction between the “coming prince” of verse 26b and “the Christ, the Prince” of verse 25 by using different constructions and terminology. Additionally, the Old Greek text does not mention a prince at all in verse 26b; instead, it replaces the figure with “the kingdom of the nations,” presenting the destruction of the city and sanctuary in connection with that kingdom rather than with a distinct prince figure.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That doesn't negate the fact that Jesus was speaking of the physical Temple in Matt 24.

Do you think Jesus was saying what he had raised in 3 days would be destroyed?
How can that be?

This clearly show that you do not know what you are talking about. No Scripture support whatoever. The problem is that you are still assuming the very thing that needs to be proven. You keep saying Jesus was speaking about the physical temple in Matthew 24, but you have not demonstrated that from the text. You are simply repeating the assumption.

In John 2, the Holy Spirit already settled the meaning of the temple symbol: “But he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:21). Jesus was not talking about a building made of stones; He was revealing Himself as the true Temple. The physical temple was only a shadow and a type pointing to Christ.

Your question, “Do you think Jesus was saying what He had raised in three days would be destroyed?” reveals the confusion. No, Jesus was not saying His resurrected body would be destroyed. That is a misunderstanding of the symbolism. The disciples did not understand at first because they were thinking about a physical building, but John tells us what Jesus meant after the resurrection.

The irony is that you are making the same mistake the Jews made in John 2. They heard “temple” and immediately thought of a structure: “Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?” (John 2:20). They misunderstood because they were focused on stones. John then corrects that misunderstanding: “But he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:21).

Likewise, in Matthew 24, the disciples showed Jesus the buildings of the temple, and Jesus responded with judgment language: “There shall not be left here one stone upon another” (Matthew 24:2). But the subject is not merely architecture. Christ was announcing the end of the Old Covenant order—the removal of the former temple system that had rejected Him. The physical destruction was not the meaning of the prophecy; it was the outward manifestation of the greater spiritual judgment.

You are confusing the sign with the reality. The destruction of stones is not the same thing as the destruction of the true Temple, which is Christ. The shadow can pass away while the reality remains.

Hebrews makes this clear: “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things…” (Hebrews 10:1). The earthly temple was a shadow. Christ is the substance.

So the issue is not that Jesus raised a temple in three days and then said it would be destroyed. That argument only works if you confuse the shadow with the fulfillment. Jesus never said His resurrected body would be destroyed. He said the old temple system would be judged because the true Temple had arrived.

Selah!

 

[Davidpt]

That is simply not true. It's talking about a prince who was to come at some point in the future from the time the prophecy was given. Nothing in the text says that the prince that shall come had to come some time after the first 69 and 1/2 weeks. I don't know how you are coming to that conclusion, but I'm not seeing any basis for it at all. The text does not say that the prince who shall come would come after the Messiah comes.

Why would you not reason it like that, the fact 26b, regardless what it is referring to, is clearly meaning sometime post that of Him being cutoff? And in that same context which is not the same context as verse 25 nor 26a, the text plainly states that a prince shall come, and that the people of this prince shall destroy the city and sanctuary.

Destroy a literal city and temple though? It all depends on whether one thinks the NT can shed light on the OT in this case. IMO, Revelation 11:1-2 is the city and temple meant, and that the Gentiles are the people meant. When I used to know you during our time together at BF, no way would I have interpreted Revelation 11:1-2 in the manner I do now.

You of course agree that I should be interpreting Revelation 11:1-2 in the manner I do now, but then complain when I see it connecting with Daniel 9:26b. IOW, I should use spiritual discernment in regard to Revelation 11:1-2. But as to Daniel 9:26b, spiritual discernment is not allowed, thus should be avoided at all costs. That it is only a coincidence that both passages involve a city and temple some people are setting out to destroy, spiritually in this case. Meaning, assuming there is a connection with that of Daniel 9:26b and Revelation 11:1-2.

 

[jeffweeder]

This clearly show that you do not know what you are talking about. No Scripture support whatoever. The problem is that you are still assuming the very thing that needs to be proven. You keep saying Jesus was speaking about the physical temple in Matthew 24, but you have not demonstrated that from the text. You are simply repeating the assumption.

In John 2, the Holy Spirit already settled the meaning of the temple symbol: “But he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:21). Jesus was not talking about a building made of stones; He was revealing Himself as the true Temple. The physical temple was only a shadow and a type pointing to Christ.

Your question, “Do you think Jesus was saying what He had raised in three days would be destroyed?” reveals the confusion. No, Jesus was not saying His resurrected body would be destroyed. That is a misunderstanding of the symbolism. The disciples did not understand at first because they were thinking about a physical building, but John tells us what Jesus meant after the resurrection.

The irony is that you are making the same mistake the Jews made in John 2. They heard “temple” and immediately thought of a structure: “Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?” (John 2:20). They misunderstood because they were focused on stones. John then corrects that misunderstanding: “But he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:21).

Likewise, in Matthew 24, the disciples showed Jesus the buildings of the temple, and Jesus responded with judgment language: “There shall not be left here one stone upon another” (Matthew 24:2). But the subject is not merely architecture. Christ was announcing the end of the Old Covenant order—the removal of the former temple system that had rejected Him. The physical destruction was not the meaning of the prophecy; it was the outward manifestation of the greater spiritual judgment.

You are confusing the sign with the reality. The destruction of stones is not the same thing as the destruction of the true Temple, which is Christ. The shadow can pass away while the reality remains.

Hebrews makes this clear: “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things…” (Hebrews 10:1). The earthly temple was a shadow. Christ is the substance.

So the issue is not that Jesus raised a temple in three days and then said it would be destroyed. That argument only works if you confuse the shadow with the fulfillment. Jesus never said His resurrected body would be destroyed. He said the old temple system would be judged because the true Temple had arrived.

Selah!

Agree with you about Jn 2 ok.

Surely the renting of the vail signified the end of the OT arrangement. Jesus/God had departed that temple for the last time. With Jesus resurrection a place for his presence was prepared through the Gospel and the receiving of the Holy Spirit in those who believe in him. Living stones.

This abandoned brick temple was THEIR temple and would be destroyed.


LK 13
35 Listen carefully: your house is left to you desolate [abandoned by God and destitute of His protection]; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed [to be celebrated with praise] is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Jesus said a direct consequence of their physical temples destruction would be exile from the land, and history proves him right.

LK 21
23 Woe to those women who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For great trouble and anguish will be on the land, and wrath and retribution on this people [Israel]. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).

Luke 19:44
and they will level you to the ground, you [Jerusalem] and your children within you. They will not leave in you one stone on another, all because you did not [come progressively to] recognize [from observation and personal experience] the time of your visitation [when God was gracious toward you and offered you salvation].”

 

[TribulationSigns]

This abandoned brick temple was THEIR temple and would be destroyed.

More Preterism nonsenses.

LK 13
35 Listen carefully: your house is left to you desolate [abandoned by God and destitute of His protection]; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed [to be celebrated with praise] is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Wrong. Read the verse in context:

Luke 13:34-35

• "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
• Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Can a Physical/literal city kill the prophets, can it stone those sent to it? ...Or is the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to a congregation, to a spiritual city? The people's house was left desolate because they didn't know the time of their visitation, and rejected their Messiah. May we pray that God will show mercy and give many the wisdom to discern THE TRUTH of His most Holy Word. The doctrine of Preterism is totally warped that depends on physical stones of the temple. Foolish!

Jesus said a direct consequence of their physical temples destruction would be exile from the land, and history proves him right.

LOL! You got the wrong temple, dude. Just like what the Jews thought.

LK 21
23 Woe to those women who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For great trouble and anguish will be on the land, and wrath and retribution on this people [Israel]. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).

Gee-whiz. God is not talking about Jewish women in 70 AD here. The Olivet Discourse was prophesied for the New Testament congregation, which the woman represents. This is a warning of wrath and woe upon professing Christians (nursing babies) who refuse to do what God has commanded to flee from falling church.

Why are they told to pray that their flight is not in winter or on the Sabbath? Winter signifies that the summer harvest of salvation is over, while the Sabbath represents the day of rest, when no man can work. Selah.

They "shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations." Do you even know what the Gentiles spiritually represent? And what does "the times of the Gentiles" refer to? Read the following passage carefully:

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This clearly is not talking about 70AD. Is God speaking about a physical city and a literal temple here? No. The measuring of the temple signifies God's correction of the saints within His spiritual temple. Those who are measured are His chosen elect.

But notice what God says about the outer court: "leave out, and measure it not." They may outwardly belong to the church, yet they are not truly saved or chosen. Therefore, God gives them over to the Gentiles.

Now ask yourself: who are these Gentiles? Is John speaking about Romans or the nations of the world? Or is he speaking spiritually of the false prophets and false christs of the unsaved world who enter the church to deceive? This is the spiritual meaning of falling "by the edge of the sword" (word of Satan) and being "led captive into all nations." (spiritual bondage like the rest of the world). It is a picture of deception, judgment, and spiritual captivity among those who profess Christ but refuse His truth.

Wake up and smell the spiritual coffee!

Luke 19:44
and they will level you to the ground, you [Jerusalem] and your children within you. They will not leave in you one stone on another, all because you did not [come progressively to] recognize [from observation and personal experience] the time of your visitation [when God was gracious toward you and offered you salvation].”

Stones = children of the congregation that was no longer representing the Kingdom of God. Selah!

Go drink some more spiritual coffee.

 

[grafted branch]

Can a Physical/literal city kill the prophets, can it stone those sent to it? ...Or is the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to a congregation, to a spiritual city? The people's house was left desolate because they didn't know the time of their visitation, and rejected their Messiah.

Do you think it’s possible to lose salvation? If a person doesn’t know the time of their visitation, is that the point they lose salvation? It seems that is where you are going when you spiritualize Luke 13:34-35.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would you not reason it like that, the fact 26b, regardless what it is referring to, is clearly meaning sometime post that of Him being cutoff?

The destruction of the city and sanctuary would occur after Jesus being cut off, but that doesn't mean the prince who shall come had to come after He was cut off. I see it as saying the people of the aforementioned prince who shall come, which was Messiah the Prince, would destroy the city and the sanctuary. And there is a sense in which the Jews destroyed the city and the sanctuary because the city and sanctuary were destroyed due to the Jews demanding that Jesus be crucified and it happened due to their continued rebellion and rejection of Christ after that.

And in that same context which is not the same context as verse 25 nor 26a, the text plainly states that a prince shall come, and that the people of this prince shall destroy the city and sanctuary.

But, it does not say that the prince who shall come would come after Messiah the prince. The text first references Messiah the Prince in verse 25. Then in verse 26 it simply refers to him as Messiah. There was no need to again refer to him as Messiah the Prince since people would know that the reference to the Messiah was referring to the previously mentioned Messiah the Prince. Similarly, in my view the reference to the prince who shall come did not have to explicitly refer to Messiah the Prince because the prince who shall come was already previously mentioned, which was Messiah the Prince. So, I don't see it as referring to two different Messiahs, which is obvious, but I also don't see it as referring to two different princes.

With all that said, I do believe that seeing the prince who shall come as referring to Titus and the people of the prince as referring to the Roman armies as being a viable interpretation as well. Either way, the "he" in verse 27 refers to the Messiah.

Destroy a literal city and temple though? It all depends on whether one thinks the NT can shed light on the OT in this case. IMO, Revelation 11:1-2 is the city and temple meant, and that the Gentiles are the people meant.

I believe you understand that Revelation 11:1-2 is not referring to the earthly city of Jerusalem nor to the physical temple in Jerusalem, right? What indication is there in Daniel 9:24-27 that it would be referring to the heavenly Jerusalem (the church) in Daniel 9:26? The prophecy relates to the rebuilding of the earthly city of Jerusalem and the physical temple, so why would the destruction of the city and the sanctuary not also refer to the earthly city of Jerusalem and the temple? Do you know why the earthly city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed? Because of the Jews having Jesus crucified and because of their rejection of Him, right? So, why would the prophecy not be about that since the prophecy does specifically mention the Messiah being cut off?

When I used to know you during our time together at BF, no way would I have interpreted Revelation 11:1-2 in the manner I do now.

Your current understanding of Revelation 11:1-2 is correct, but, unfortunately, you sometimes try to relate prophecies that are not directly related. This is one of those times, in my opinion.

You of course agree that I should be interpreting Revelation 11:1-2 in the manner I do now, but then complain when I see it connecting with Daniel 9:26b.

Because the context of Daniel 9:26b has nothing to do with the context of Revelation 11:1-2. The context instead relates to what Jesus Himself said would happen, which was that the earthly city of Jerusalem and the temple buildings, would be destroyed. And He referenced Daniel in relation to that, also.

IOW, I should use spiritual discernment in regard to Revelation 11:1-2. But as to Daniel 9:26b, spiritual discernment is not allowed, thus should be avoided at all costs.

You don't seem to understand what spiritual discernment is. Spiritual discernment has to do with being able to spiritually discern whether any given text is meant to be taken literally or figuratively or is meant to be taken in a physical sense or a spiritual sense. Spiritual discernment is always necessary when it comes to interpreting these things. I spiritually discern that Daniel 9:26b is talking about the destruction of earthly Jerusalem and the second temple in 70 AD rather than talking about the church being persecuted by the heathen (Gentiles - non-spiritual Jews).

That it is only a coincidence that both passages involve a city and temple some people are setting out to destroy, spiritually in this case. Meaning, assuming there is a connection with that of Daniel 9:26b and Revelation 11:1-2.

That is correct. As I've told you I'm not sure how many times before, not every time two verses or passages have similar wording does it mean they are directly related. A clear example of this is Daniel 7:13-14 and Matthew 24:30. Many people think those verses are directly related because of the similar wording of it talking about the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven, but the context of Daniel 7:13-14 is related to Christ's ascension while the context of Matthew 24:30 relates to His second coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

More Preterism nonsenses.



Wrong. Read the verse in context:

Luke 13:34-35

• "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
• Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Can a Physical/literal city kill the prophets, can it stone those sent to it? ...Or is the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to a congregation, to a spiritual city? The people's house was left desolate because they didn't know the time of their visitation, and rejected their Messiah. May we pray that God will show mercy and give many the wisdom to discern THE TRUTH of His most Holy Word. The doctrine of Preterism is totally warped that depends on physical stones of the temple. Foolish!




LOL! You got the wrong temple, dude. Just like what the Jews thought.



Gee-whiz. God is not talking about Jewish women in 70 AD here. The Olivet Discourse was prophesied for the New Testament congregation, which the woman represents. This is a warning of wrath and woe upon professing Christians (nursing babies) who refuse to do what God has commanded to flee from falling church.

Why are they told to pray that their flight is not in winter or on the Sabbath? Winter signifies that the summer harvest of salvation is over, while the Sabbath represents the day of rest, when no man can work. Selah.

They "shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations." Do you even know what the Gentiles spiritually represent? And what does "the times of the Gentiles" refer to? Read the following passage carefully:

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This clearly is not talking about 70AD. Is God speaking about a physical city and a literal temple here? No. The measuring of the temple signifies God's correction of the saints within His spiritual temple. Those who are measured are His chosen elect.

But notice what God says about the outer court: "leave out, and measure it not." They may outwardly belong to the church, yet they are not truly saved or chosen. Therefore, God gives them over to the Gentiles.

Now ask yourself: who are these Gentiles? Is John speaking about Romans or the nations of the world? Or is he speaking spiritually of the false prophets and false christs of the unsaved world who enter the church to deceive? This is the spiritual meaning of falling "by the edge of the sword" (word of Satan) and being "led captive into all nations." (spiritual bondage like the rest of the world). It is a picture of deception, judgment, and spiritual captivity among those who profess Christ but refuse His truth.

Wake up and smell the spiritual coffee!



Stones = children of the congregation that was no longer representing the Kingdom of God. Selah!

Go drink some more spiritual coffee.

LOL! What a joke this is. You think that having spiritual discernment means we should spiritualize as much of scripture as we possibly can! What an embarrassment your interpretations are! Jesus was clearly referring to the literal physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings in passages like Luke 19:41-44 and Luke 21:20-24, but you lack the spiritual discernment to understand that. To you, spiritual discernment equates to spritualizing literal text, but what spiritual discernment actually relate to is having the ability to discern what is literal or figurative and what is physical or spiritual. And you are clearing lacking in spiritual discernment! As you prove over and over again with your hyper-spiritualized nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This clearly show that you do not know what you are talking about. No Scripture support whatoever.

Says the guy who does not believe in the existence of spirit beings called the devil/Satan, angels and demons. LOL! Everyone here knows that YOU are the one who does not know what he is talking about.

 

[jeffweeder]

More Preterism nonsenses.

Its not a nonsense that the second temple was destroyed. Its not a nonsense that the vail was torn and God had left the building in the past. What do you think was going to happen to land, building and temple now God was not there to protect it? Jesus himself tells us PLAINLY what would happen.

Can a Physical/literal city kill the prophets, can it stone those sent to it?

The unbelieving remnant within the city killed the Prophets and stoned the messengers.

The people's house was left desolate because they didn't know the time of their visitation and rejected their Messiah.

Right.

May we pray that God will show mercy and give many the wisdom to discern THE TRUTH of His most Holy Word.

Yep

The doctrine of Preterism is totally warped that depends on physical stones of the temple. Foolish!

Pity those people didn't take Jesus's warning seriously in 70AD
Not my fault those things have happened in the past.

LOL! You got the wrong temple, dude. Just like what the Jews thought.

No I would not have thought like them. I would have heeded Jesus impending warning of doom and FLED.

Gee-whiz. God is not talking about Jewish women in 70 AD here.

Enough already.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you think it’s possible to lose salvation? If a person doesn’t know the time of their visitation, is that the point they lose salvation? It seems that is where you are going when you spiritualize Luke 13:34-35.

What are you talking about? Losing salvation? What does this has to do with Luke 13. You were not listening very well.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Its not a nonsense that the second temple was destroyed. Its not a nonsense that the vail was torn and God had left the building in the past. What do you think was going to happen to land, building and temple now God was not there to protect it? Jesus himself tells us PLAINLY what would happen.

You completely misunderstood what Jesus was teaching.

Yes, the Second Temple was destroyed in AD 70. No one disputes that historical fact. But your error is assuming that when Jesus spoke about the temple, He was ultimately pointing to a physical building. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that God's true temple is His people, not bricks and stone.

Jesus declared, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews thought He meant Herod's temple, but they completely misunderstood Him. Scripture immediately explains: "He spake of the temple of his body." (John 2:19-21).

After Christ's resurrection and Pentecost, God no longer dwells in temples made with hands.

"Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands." (Acts 7:48)

Paul is even clearer:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)

"Ye are the temple of the living God." (2 Corinthians 6:16)

Peter identifies believers as the true spiritual house:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house." (1 Peter 2:5)

The tearing of the veil did not mean God merely abandoned physical building so the Romans could destroy it. It signified the end of the Old Covenant priesthood and direct access to God through Christ (Hebrews 10:19-22). The physical temple had already become obsolete because it had been fulfilled in Christ.

You are making the same mistake the Jews made—fixating on a literal building when the New Testament consistently points to the spiritual reality. The Church, Christ's body, is now God's dwelling place (Ephesians 2:19-22). The physical temple was only a shadow; Christ and His redeemed people are the substance.

The unbelieving remnant within the city killed the Prophets and stoned the messengers.

LOL. Your response actually proves my point, not yours.

You said, "the unbelieving remnant within the city killed the prophets and stoned the messengers." Exactly. It was people who killed the prophets—not a physical city, not the stones of the buildings, and not the walls of Jerusalem.

Jesus was not condemning bricks and mortar. He was condemning the covenant people who rejected God's messengers and ultimately rejected His Son. As it is written:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee..." (Matthew 23:37)
The city name represented the people and the covenant community associated with it. That is the very point. Scripture uses a city symbolically to represent its inhabitants, just as "Babylon," "Sodom," and other cities often represent more than geography.

The judgment was not merely about a physical structure being destroyed by Roman soldiers. The deeper judgment was that the unbelieving covenant community had rejected Christ, and therefore the kingdom was taken from them:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Matthew 21:43)

The old covenant order had served its purpose and was fulfilled in Christ. The temple, priesthood, and sacrifices were shadows pointing to Him. When they rejected the Son, they rejected the very One the entire system pointed toward.

Christ then established His New Covenant congregation, built not on a physical temple but on Himself as the cornerstone:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house..." (1 Peter 2:5

"In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord." (Ephesians 2:21)

So the entire issue is about people, covenant, and God's dwelling among His people—not about a building and not merely about Roman soldiers destroying stones. The old covenant congregation had fallen because it rejected and cut off the Messiah, and the kingdom was given to Christ's redeemed people in three days. Selah!

Pity those people didn't take Jesus's warning seriously in 70AD
Not my fault those things have happened in the past.

Your response reveals the very problem with the Preterist interpretation—you are reducing Christ's warning to a lesson about a past event in AD 70 and missing the deeper spiritual meaning.

Jesus was not merely warning people about Roman armies destroying buildings. He was warning about judgment upon an unbelieving covenant people who rejected God's messengers and His Son.

You keep focusing on physical stones, but Jesus already showed that the true issue was not a building:

"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)
"But he spake of the temple of his body." (John 2:21)

The disciples and the Jews misunderstood because they were focused on the physical temple. The New Testament corrects that misunderstanding by revealing that God's dwelling place is now His people:

"Ye are the temple of the living God." (2 Corinthians 6:16)

When Jesus said:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee..." (Matthew 23:37)

He was not saying that a city made of stone committed murder. He was speaking about the people within that covenant system who rejected God's servants and ultimately crucified the Son.

The greatest judgment was not that Roman soldiers knocked down stones in AD 70. The greater judgment was that the kingdom was taken from those who rejected Christ:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Matthew 21:43)

The New Covenant congregation became God's dwelling place, built upon Christ the cornerstone:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house." (1 Peter 2:5)

So the issue is not whether AD 70 happened. It did. The issue is whether you understand what Jesus was actually teaching. Preterism becomes distorted when it makes the physical destruction of a temple the entire fulfillment while ignoring the spiritual judgment, the transfer of the kingdom, and the establishment of Christ's true congregation.

The warning was never about trusting a building made of stone. The warning was about rejecting the Son of God.

Enough already.

"Enough already" is usually what people say when they do not want to keep hearing an argument they cannot answer.

The truth is, I am not trying to avoid the subject—I am pointing out that Jesus' words must be understood the way Scripture interprets them, not simply reduced to a first-century historical event. If the argument is based on truth, it should be able to withstand examination.

You may not like hearing this perspective, but dismissing it with "enough already" does not address the Scriptures being presented. The question remains: Is Jesus talking about mere physical events involving Jewish women in AD 70, or is He revealing a deeper spiritual judgment involving His covenant people and the coming of the New Covenant?

Jesus repeatedly used spiritual language that people misunderstood because they focused on the physical:

"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)

They thought He meant a physical building, but He was speaking of His body.

The same mistake happens when people assume every reference to Jerusalem, temple, or God's people must be about physical stones and geography. Scripture reveals the greater reality is Christ and His congregation.

So if you want to say "enough already," that is your choice. But truth does not stop being truth simply because it challenges your favorite interpretation. You wanted me to stop. Well, like Christ said in "The Chosen" series: Oh, I am just getting started.

 

[jeffweeder]

You completely misunderstood what Jesus was teaching.

I don't believe I am.

But your error is assuming that when Jesus spoke about the temple, He was ultimately pointing to a physical building.

He spoke of both, as I have already pointed out.

The New Testament repeatedly teaches that God's true temple is His people, not bricks and stone.

Yes indeed

Jesus declared, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews thought He meant Herod's temple, but they completely misunderstood Him. Scripture immediately explains: "He spake of the temple of his body." (John 2:19-21).

After Christ's resurrection and Pentecost, God no longer dwells in temples made with hands.

"Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands." (Acts 7:48)

Paul is even clearer:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)

"Ye are the temple of the living God." (2 Corinthians 6:16)

Peter identifies believers as the true spiritual house:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house." (1 Peter 2:5)

I pointed that out as well.

The tearing of the veil did not mean God merely abandoned physical building so the Romans could destroy it. It signified the end of the Old Covenant priesthood and direct access to God through Christ (Hebrews 10:19-22). The physical temple had already become obsolete because it had been fulfilled in Christ.

I believe I mentioned this as well lol

You are making the same mistake the Jews made—fixating on a literal building when the New Testament consistently points to the spiritual reality. The Church, Christ's body, is now God's dwelling place (Ephesians 2:19-22). The physical temple was only a shadow; Christ and His redeemed people are the substance.

I have already addressed this.

You said, "the unbelieving remnant within the city killed the prophets and stoned the messengers." Exactly. It was people who killed the prophets—not a physical city, not the stones of the buildings, and not the walls of Jerusalem.

Jesus was not condemning bricks and mortar. He was condemning the covenant people who rejected God's messengers and ultimately rejected His Son.

Of course

As it is written:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee..." (Matthew 23:37)
The city name represented the people and the covenant community associated with it. That is the very point. Scripture uses a city symbolically to represent its inhabitants, just as "Babylon," "Sodom," and other cities often represent more than geography.

The judgment was not merely about a physical structure being destroyed by Roman soldiers. The deeper judgment was that the unbelieving covenant community had rejected Christ, and therefore the kingdom was taken from them:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Matthew 21:43)

The old covenant order had served its purpose and was fulfilled in Christ. The temple, priesthood, and sacrifices were shadows pointing to Him. When they rejected the Son, they rejected the very One the entire system pointed toward.

Christ then established His New Covenant congregation, built not on a physical temple but on Himself as the cornerstone:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house..." (1 Peter 2:5

"In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord." (Ephesians 2:21)

So the entire issue is about people, covenant, and God's dwelling among His people—not about a building and not merely about Roman soldiers destroying stones. The old covenant congregation had fallen because it rejected and cut off the Messiah, and the kingdom was given to Christ's redeemed people in three days. Selah!

Again, I agree completely

Your response reveals the very problem with the Preterist interpretation—you are reducing Christ's warning to a lesson about a past event in AD 70 and missing the deeper spiritual meaning.

Jesus was not merely warning people about Roman armies destroying buildings. He was warning about judgment upon an unbelieving covenant people who rejected God's messengers and His Son.

It should be clear to you now that I am not missing Spiritual meaning.
Matt 24 is a lesson for those who rejected him. He was clearly a prophet, and they should have listened to him.

The question remains: Is Jesus talking about mere physical events involving Jewish women in AD 70, or is He revealing a deeper spiritual judgment involving His covenant people and the coming of the New Covenant?

Both

The same mistake happens when people assume every reference to Jerusalem, temple, or God's people must be about physical stones and geography.

Not every reference.
Its equally wrong to assume that every reference must be about Spiritual stones etc.

So if you want to say "enough already," that is your choice. But truth does not stop being truth simply because it challenges your favorite interpretation. You wanted me to stop. Well, like Christ said in "The Chosen" series: Oh, I am just getting started.

I had said enough to show you where I am coming from

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't believe I am.


He spoke of both, as I have already pointed out.


Yes indeed


I pointed that out as well.


I believe I mentioned this as well lol


I have already addressed this.


Of course



Again, I agree completely


It should be clear to you now that I am not missing Spiritual meaning.
Matt 24 is a lesson for those who rejected him. He was clearly a prophet, and they should have listened to him.



Both


Not every reference.
Its equally wrong to assume that every reference must be about Spiritual stones etc.


I had said enough to show you where I am coming from

Glad you agree with me despite that you still don't get it. So far, you really have not refute my position. Go have fun playing in 70AD Sandbox that won't get you any closer to the Gospel truth.