The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

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David in NJ

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These verses were made to order to be ignored by those who suppose otherwise.
  • John 14:28 the Father is greater than I.
  • 1 Corinthians 11:3 the head of the Messiah is God.
  • 1 Corinthians 15:27 “God has put all things under his authority.” (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.
What purpose is excluding God from who Christ has authority over if they are one and the same? Harry gave Harry authority over all things, of course, when it says 'all things,' that doesn't include Harry himself. Huh?
We SEE those verses and have Understanding of those verses.

When the Word that was with God and was God became flesh, HE laid aside HIS GLORY to enter this world as a man in order to bring Salvation to man.

As a man, HE submitted unto HIS FATHER = who just happens to be GOD
 

David in NJ

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In speaking of himself, God uses plural personal pronouns.
Elohim is the correct word for 'God' and it is Plural.
The we have the obvious Plurality of Genesis 1:26 = as you pointed out
Then when Moses writes out the act of creation of male and female, he uses singular personal pronouns. Why? Because there is only one God. Yet, God hints at a multiplicity within himself.
Are you referring to Genesis 1:27 ???
 
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Justified

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Do you think that there is a difference between 1:26 and 1:27 ???
A difference in what? As I stated, God uses plural personal pronouns of himself in verse 26, when speaking to himself, of making man in his image. Then verse 27 uses singular personal pronouns when telling of the act of God creating male and female in his image.

That tells us there is only one God (as verse 1 has already stated), but strongly suggests that within God there is a plurality.
 

Runningman

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Then the onus is on YOU to disprove the almost THREE DOZEN verses that a TRIUNE God.
Context is NOT your friend . . .


I’ve done BOTHad nauseam.

YOUR refusal to believe the truth of Scripture doesn’t make it “wrong” to reject your perversions.

You’ve presented nothing but YOUR opinions – but you haven’t disproven my Scriptural evidence.

The Trinity, as Shown in Scripture
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let
US make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Matt. 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Fatherthe Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

1 Cor. 12:4-6
"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

2 Cor. 13:14
"The grace of the
Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
Each of these have a different context.

For example, in Genesis 1:26, it doesn't say the "Us" and "Our" are a trinity nor even how many there are. That doesn't help, but you seem to be saying that if God were a trinity that God would be an "Us, Our, They, or Them" which would be normal pronoun usage for describing more than one person. That's helpful, because did you know that God is never described as a They, Them, Us, or Our throughout the entire Bible? With overwhelming consistency, God is always a He, Him,. His, I, You, just one person in the entire Bible. This is the opposite of what you're saying. Genesis 1:26 is part of a conversation not God saying "Hey, I'm a trinity and we're gonna create some stuff." The very next verse clarifies that God created alone as a singular person. Who made people in His own image. Want proof? If you're in the image of God, then are you three persons or one person?

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

Next, Matthew 28:19 doesn't define the trinity despite it saying "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Side question, why does no one in Acts baptize according to that formula?

John 15:26 isn't helpful to demonstrate that the "Spirit of truth" is actually a distinct person from the Father. Why? God has many spirits. Following your reasoning, if the "Spirit of truth" is a third person, then God wouldn't be a trinity, but rather at least 9 different persons that I can count off the top of my head. You misunderstand that God's spirits are often personified in Scripture and often represent His power.

Isaiah 11
2The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him—
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and strength,
the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the LORD.
 
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Runningman

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There are many ways in which God is Defined in the Scriptures

Example #1 - John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Example #2 - John 14:5-7
“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Example #2 - John 17:1-5
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Generally speaking, how is God defined in the Bible though? A He, a Him, His, I, You? The Father who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ? The Father as the only true God, the throne sitter with His begotten Son temporarily at His right hand? The one who Jesus taught his followers to worship and pray to? The Father as the only God Jesus identified to believe in in order to have eternal life? If God were a trinity, for lack of a better way to put, Jesus and the apostles fooled a lot of people and that in and of itself would be concerning.

Anyway, this is a side discussion to this thread because it was necessary to address. God is never really defined as three persons in one being, or any of the trinitarian statements people use in the Bible which, if true, we should reasonably expect to be present. I don't agree with that version of God at all.
 

keithr

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I wrote this about 4 years ago summarising the video John's Prologue - Part 1 on The Trinity Delusion channel. The video description says:

John 1:1-5 is John's introductory statement to his Gospel account and from verses 1 to 5 John tells us what he will be describing in his Gospel. The beginning in question is the beginning of the Christian faith by Jesus Christ who authored our faith by means of his ministry from his baptism by John to his death and resurrection. In his ministry, Jesus proclaimed the word of God he received at the Jordan river by the Spirit when heaven was opened to him. The word proclaimed through Jesus was God the Father Himself, the word was God. The man Jesus made the Father known to us; the word was God. No one has ever seen God but the fleshly man Jesus declared HIM, the Father. The word proclaimed by Jesus was God, that is, making the Father known to the world. Everything which came to pass in this beginning, the ministry of Jesus, did come to pass through the word proclaimed by Jesus and nothing came to pass apart from the word proclaimed by Jesus.​

My summary of the video (split into two posts because it's over 10,000 characters):

Occasionally we may come across a different interpretation of a passage of Scripture that makes us realise that we had been misunderstanding it for years! For example, you may not have heard the following explanation of the prologue to John’s Gospel - John 1:1-5:

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​
2) The same was in the beginning with God.​
3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​
4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.​
5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.​

In his prologue (John 1:1-5) John is introducing what his gospel is all about – the ministry of Jesus. John uses Genesis language and imagery in his introductory statements. He starts off with “In the beginning”, the same words as the first words of Genesis 1:1. He says that everything that came to be was through the Word (verse 3), just as we see in Genesis (God spoke, and it came to pass). In verse 5 John says, “The light shines in the darkness”, and in Genesis it says there was darkness and God said “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3).

Most Christians have been taught the Trinitarian viewpoint, which assumes that John’s use of Genesis language is to set the time frame of what is occurring in verse 1. But what if that assumption is wrong? Genesis 1:1 is an introductory statement that introduces a description of how God created the heavens and the earth. It is referring to a time period – the six days of creation. The ‘beginning’ was that time period of six days. Although John uses Genesis imagery throughout the first five verses, verse 4 and the latter part of verse 5 do not fit the creation account, but they do perfectly fit the ministry of Jesus, and that was also a time period. This tells us that John may have been referring to the ministry of Jesus.

Trinitarian commentators have themselves observed that John uses creation imagery throughout his Gospel to refer to the new creation. Jesus’ ministry is how the new creation began. The new creation of God is the result of Jesus’ ministry, beginning with his baptism through to his death and resurrection. Jesus is the firstfruits of the new creation of God (“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept”, 1 Corinthians 15:20).

In Genesis, God created by means of His spoken word. But now God creates things anew by means of His word which became flesh - “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth”, John 1:14. For example, humans can now become new creations in Christ Jesus, and this is only because of the ministry of Jesus - “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”, John 1:12,13.

Since John 1:1-5 is his introductory statement, we should expect him to be introducing what his gospel account is about, and what is contained in his gospel, and that is what he is doing right from verse 1. Jesus’ ministry is the beginning of the Christian faith, and Jesus is the author, the beginning, of our salvation and faith, and his ministry is how the new creation began (“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new”, 2 Corinthians 5:17).

Verse one is often used by believers in the Trinity to claim that Jesus was God, despite other Scripture verses that prove that can’t be true. To interpret verse 1 Trinitarians resort to interpretation by imagination. John did not say, “In the beginning was the son”, nor “the son was with God” and nor did he say “the son was God”. Neither did he say “the son became flesh”. Just because in Revelation 19:13 it says the rider on the white horse was named “The word of God”, we should not assume that John meant in his introduction that the Word was God’s son.

In verses 3 and 4 most translations use the word ‘him’. However, unlike English, in Greek nouns have a gender, so inanimate things have a gender. For example petra, a rock, is feminine. The Greek word logos (which means a spoken word, and is translated as ‘word’) is masculine, so the pronoun ‘him’ is used to match the gender of the noun it refers to. It is a matter of grammar. A spoken word, logos, is masculine in Greek, but that doesn’t mean that a spoken word is a person.

Without having knowledge of the Greek language, English speaking readers are easily duped into thinking that John is identifying the ‘word’ of verses 1 and 2 as a person. However, the Greek word translated as ‘him’ (autos) is not equivalent to the English word ‘him’. It would be equally valid to translate it as herself or itself. Likewise the Greek word houtos in verse 2, usually translated as “the same” but sometimes translated as ‘he’, does not necessarily imply it’s referring to a person.

The Greek words autos and houtos are not like the English words him, her and it. We can only deduce which English pronoun to use when referring to the context. The Greek words are more like the English word ‘this’, which can refer to a person or an object, e.g. “This is my wife”, “This is an apple”. John 6:60 is extremely instructive of this, it includes the statement “This word is hard; who is able to hear it?” (YLT), where the words translated as ‘This’, ‘word’ and ‘it’ are Houtos, logos and autos. Likewise the words translated as ‘He’ and ‘him’ in John 1:2-4 should be translated as ‘this’ and ‘it’. So all that the Greek text of verses 1-3 tells us is:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. 2 The word was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through the word; and apart from the word nothing came to be that has come to be.

In the Trinity world you have God in Genesis creating by means of two different words: by a word that is spoken, and by a person called “the word”. That doesn’t make sense. But if “the word” is referring to the word, or message, proclaimed by the ministry of Jesus, the word Jesus said he kept, his food, his bread, to do the will of the Father and to continue His work, the Good News of the Kingdom of God, then it starts to make a lot more sense.

Mark and Luke also open their Gospel accounts in a similar manner:

Mark 1:1 - The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Luke 1:1-2 (WEB) - Since many have undertaken to set in order a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us, even as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word delivered them to us,

So if the word is the word proclaimed by Jesus during his ministry, what does “the word was with [pros] God, and the word was God” mean? There are numerous examples of the Greek word pros in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint), e.g. Zechariah 1:1 - “In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word [logos] of the LORD unto [pros] Zechariah, … saying,”. This is saying that the word of God was with Zechariah, and Zechariah proclaimed that word. Similarly in John 1:1 it means that the word of God was with God, and it was God Himself expressing the word. It then says that the word was God. Verse 18 says, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. It is Jesus that expressed and proclaimed the Father; the Father was the word that was proclaimed to the world – the word was God. Verse 18 is the summary of John’s prologue, summing up what he introduced in verse 1. The word proclaimed in the ministry of Jesus was the revelation of God, the Father, Himself – God expressing and revealing Himself through Jesus.

(To be continued.)
 
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keithr

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(Continuing.)

As Jesus said in John 14:10, “the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”. John says “the word was with [pros] God” because the word proclaimed was the word God Himself proclaimed, through the man Jesus, and the word proclaimed was God Himself making Himself known, who He is. God’s divine qualities He made known through Jesus – the word Jesus proclaimed was God.

In verse 2, “The word was in the beginning with God”, John clarifies that the word that was with God, was with God in the beginning of Jesus’ ministry. In verse 3, “All things came to be through the word; and apart from the word nothing came to be that has come to be”, John is saying that all things that came to pass in the ministry of Jesus came to pass by means of the word which Jesus proclaimed. In the Genesis creation everything was created through a spoken word, and everything which pertains to the new creation will come to pass by the words proclaimed by God through Jesus.

The Greek of verse 3 can also be translated as “Everything came to pass through the word, and apart from the word nothing came to pass that has come to pass”, or as “Everything happened through the word, and apart from the word nothing happened that has happened” (similar to Young’s Literal Translation except with ‘him’ replaced with ‘the word’).

John also wrote, 1 John 1 (ESV):

(1) That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life -​
(2) the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us -​
(3) that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.​
(4) And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.​
 
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David in NJ

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As long as you understand those verses show inequality, then you see correctly. Otherwise, you're seeing what you want despite God's words. Here is inequality: Jesus died; God did not die.
You are CORRECT = God cannot die!!!

A sinless Man died on the Cross = that sinless Man was the Word that was God and became flesh = Hebrews 10:5

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
 

Runningman

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(Continuing.)

As Jesus said in John 14:10, “the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”. John says “the word was with [pros] God” because the word proclaimed was the word God Himself proclaimed, through the man Jesus, and the word proclaimed was God Himself making Himself known, who He is. God’s divine qualities He made known through Jesus – the word Jesus proclaimed was God.

In verse 2, “The word was in the beginning with God”, John clarifies that the word that was with God, was with God in the beginning of Jesus’ ministry. In verse 3, “All things came to be through the word; and apart from the word nothing came to be that has come to be”, John is saying that all things that came to pass in the ministry of Jesus came to pass by means of the word which Jesus proclaimed. In the Genesis creation everything was created through a spoken word, and everything which pertains to the new creation will come to pass by the words proclaimed by God through Jesus.

The Greek of verse 3 can also be translated as “Everything came to pass through the word, and apart from the word nothing came to pass that has come to pass”, or as “Everything happened through the word, and apart from the word nothing happened that has happened” (similar to Young’s Literal Translation except with ‘him’ replaced with ‘the word’).

John also wrote, 1 John 1 (ESV):

(1) That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life -​
(2) the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us -​
(3) that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.​
(4) And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.​
Those are some good points and I totally agree. I see that throughout the New Testament, they often referred to the "beginning" in context of when Jesus started his ministry (Mark 1:1, Luke 1:2) as you said. When Jesus referred to "the beginning" he was talking about the start of his ministry as well (John 15:27, John 16:4) as well John (1 John 2:7, 1 John 2:24, 2 John 5-6) and the apostles in Acts (Acts 10:36-37) and elsewhere (Revelation 3:14) and they all seemed to connect that beginning of the ministry of Jesus in which the gospel was proclaimed with the new creation, yet no one even once said "the beginning" described in John 1:1-3 refers back to Genesis 1 where the literal cosmos were made. John 1:1-18, Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 1:1,2, and even 1 John 1:1-3 all refer to the "beginning" of the new creation, the church, and all things concerning it.
 

rebuilder 454

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Agreed,.

Agreed.

He is not.

No he wasn't.

Bowing isn't the same thing as God worship.

Agreed.

Jesus never said he was God.
It is like talking to a kid.
"No he is not"
"Agreed"

Scripture says it.
You twist it
Repeat.

John 1
"All things were created by him"
You = "the bible is wrong. What the bible meant to say is...."
Flat out in rebellion to the Word of God.
 

Lambano

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yet no one even once said "the beginning" described in John 1:1-3 refers back to Genesis 1 where the literal cosmos were made.
No. The echo of Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1 is unmistakable. And verses 2-3, especially verse 3, confirms this.

Echo. Another literary technique that is useful in interpreting scripture.
 
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rebuilder 454

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Those are some good points and I totally agree. I see that throughout the New Testament, they often referred to the "beginning" in context of when Jesus started his ministry (Mark 1:1, Luke 1:2) as you said. When Jesus referred to "the beginning" he was talking about the start of his ministry as well (John 15:27, John 16:4) as well John (1 John 2:7, 1 John 2:24, 2 John 5-6) and the apostles in Acts (Acts 10:36-37) and elsewhere (Revelation 3:14) and they all seemed to connect that beginning of the ministry of Jesus in which the gospel was proclaimed with the new creation, yet no one even once said "the beginning" described in John 1:1-3 refers back to Genesis 1 where the literal cosmos were made. John 1:1-18, Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 1:1,2, and even 1 John 1:1-3 all refer to the "beginning" of the new creation, the church, and all things concerning it.

Oh brother..brother ...brother
You are way off.
So creative in your twisting.
Gen. ....In the beginning God created...
John 1 ....in the beginning Jesus created all things
You walked up to the barn, emptied the shot gun from 2 ft away ...and missed!

If you are not watchtower, you would made a perfect follower of them.

You have the same zeal of twisting scripture as they do.
.
A spirit of error.
 

rebuilder 454

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Each of these have a different context.

For example, in Genesis 1:26, it doesn't say the "Us" and "Our" are a trinity nor even how many there are. That doesn't help, but you seem to be saying that if God were a trinity that God would be an "Us, Our, They, or Them" which would be normal pronoun usage for describing more than one person. That's helpful, because did you know that God is never described as a They, Them, Us, or Our throughout the entire Bible? With overwhelming consistency, God is always a He, Him,. His, I, You, just one person in the entire Bible. This is the opposite of what you're saying. Genesis 1:26 is part of a conversation not God saying "Hey, I'm a trinity and we're gonna create some stuff." The very next verse clarifies that God created alone as a singular person. Who made people in His own image. Want proof? If you're in the image of God, then are you three persons or one person?

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

Next, Matthew 28:19 doesn't define the trinity despite it saying "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Side question, why does no one in Acts baptize according to that formula?

John 15:26 isn't helpful to demonstrate that the "Spirit of truth" is actually a distinct person from the Father. Why? God has many spirits. Following your reasoning, if the "Spirit of truth" is a third person, then God wouldn't be a trinity, but rather at least 9 different persons that I can count off the top of my head. You misunderstand that God's spirits are often personified in Scripture and often represent His power.

Isaiah 11
2The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him—
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and strength,
the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the LORD.
Watchtower big time.
Cult
Denying The testimony of JESUS.
Heb 1
The Father calls the SON GOD AND INSTRUCTS WORSHIP DIRECTED TO JESUS.

HARD TO WIGGLE OUT OF IT.
watchtower can not correctly answer it.
Neither can you.
The bible offends your mind.
That is your starting place for your false doctrine.
 

rebuilder 454

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Those are some good points and I totally agree. I see that throughout the New Testament, they often referred to the "beginning" in context of when Jesus started his ministry (Mark 1:1, Luke 1:2) as you said. When Jesus referred to "the beginning" he was talking about the start of his ministry as well (John 15:27, John 16:4) as well John (1 John 2:7, 1 John 2:24, 2 John 5-6) and the apostles in Acts (Acts 10:36-37) and elsewhere (Revelation 3:14) and they all seemed to connect that beginning of the ministry of Jesus in which the gospel was proclaimed with the new creation, yet no one even once said "the beginning" described in John 1:1-3 refers back to Genesis 1 where the literal cosmos were made. John 1:1-18, Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 1:1,2, and even 1 John 1:1-3 all refer to the "beginning" of the new creation, the church, and all things concerning it.
Flat out appalling, the lengths you go to, to muddy up Gods Holy Word.
 

rebuilder 454

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As long as you understand those verses show inequality, then you see correctly. Otherwise, you're seeing what you want despite God's words. Here is inequality: Jesus died; God did not die.
Mirrors watchtower perfectly.
Was Jesus created?
 

rebuilder 454

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Those are some good points and I totally agree. I see that throughout the New Testament, they often referred to the "beginning" in context of when Jesus started his ministry (Mark 1:1, Luke 1:2) as you said. When Jesus referred to "the beginning" he was talking about the start of his ministry as well (John 15:27, John 16:4) as well John (1 John 2:7, 1 John 2:24, 2 John 5-6) and the apostles in Acts (Acts 10:36-37) and elsewhere (Revelation 3:14) and they all seemed to connect that beginning of the ministry of Jesus in which the gospel was proclaimed with the new creation, yet no one even once said "the beginning" described in John 1:1-3 refers back to Genesis 1 where the literal cosmos were made. John 1:1-18, Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 1:1,2, and even 1 John 1:1-3 all refer to the "beginning" of the new creation, the church, and all things concerning it.
Was Jesus created?
 

Lambano

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No. The echo of Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1 is unmistakable. And verses 2-3, especially verse 3, confirms this.
I also note that both the tenses used and the literary flow, "the beginning" in John 1 occurred in time past, before the light came into the world, before the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us.

I also don't see any cause to introduce the Pauline concept of "New Creation" into John. Different writers. (As is the "John" who wrote Revelation, Behold, I make all things new". Totally different style of writing.)