Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Earburner]

Argument from silence fallacy. If the concept is there, using "the" is valid. John does isolate a singular, future AC so in English that AC can be called "the AC" as in "that specific AC".

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Correction, the scripture means to say:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that [spirit of] antichrist shall come , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, you just loss a lot of credibility in your assignation attempt of a Godly man....just because he disagrees with you.

The funny thing is Thomas Ice....whether he is a false teacher of not..through the article I presented QUOTED early christians...that is, didn't make it up. It's ACTUALLY what they wrote.
BUT...you label him as false for presenting material THAT PROVED A PRE-DARBY BELIEF IN A RAPTURE? What do you have to say for yourself???

Personally I would remove Truth7t7 from your name.

"Thomas Ice" presently teaches that the words (Falling Away/Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a future secret rapture of the church to heaven, "Thomas Ice" is a false teacher

The scripture teaches that the word Apostasia (Falling Away/Departure) is from the faith once held, a defection from truth

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[CTK]

You are getting warmer. I have been teaching that the horn in Scripture symbolizes power. The little horn represents a short period of a greater apostate power — a continuation of the same opposition against Christ and His Church that has been working throughout history, but intensified immediately before the Second Coming - especially after God has finished sealed all of His Elect first.

It is a short season when the mystery of iniquity or lawlessness is brought into greater revelation, allowing many of the Elect to recognize that the appointed season has arrived and that Christ’s return is near. This is what the symbolism of the little horn points to.

And yes, this has nothing to do with the premillennial interpretation that teaches the little horn is a single individual man they believe will be Antichrist figure with supernatural power. That interpretation overlooks the broader biblical pattern of horns representing kingdoms, powers, and authorities that oppose God’s people.

Well, we are clearly miles apart on this topic. And it all begins within the interpretations of the Book of Daniel. And once Daniel is understood, then Revelation will seem like a piece of cake - especially concerning the "short period at the time of the end" that you mentioned. But the little horn does not arrive at the end of time and he is not symbolic figure - God has given us just too much information on this fellow in Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 11, 2 Thessalonians 2, and of course in Revelation. He, the little horn will continue until he is destroyed without human hands.... Daniel 7 gives us his time of arrival and identity....

However, should you like to offer your interpretations of Daniel 2, 7 and 8 only (slowly of course), you might find realized who God has been discussing all along.

 

[CTK]

Sorry, there is no "little horn" to come now or in any future. The prophecy about the "little horn" was fulfilled and fleshed out in the man named Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
You can read the historic account about the 2300 days in the book of 1&2 Maccabees.

Today, the Jews still celebrate Hanukkah about Judas Maccabeus. He and his army restored the temple, in which Antiochus committed "the abomination that maketh desolate".
Do you know of anyone that did something in likeness to Judas Maccabeus, about the Restoration of a temple also? One that isn't made of stone.
Through the book of Daniel, such a person pointed to that historic time of Jewish history.
Does anyone here understand how to apply "type and anti-type" in the bible?

With all due respect, God has indeed made this fellow known - the timing of his arrival, his characteristics, where he comes from, why he comes out, and simply so many more detailed pieces of information found in Daniel 7and 8. These are indeed not a type and shadow of an evil one that will come at the end of time, nor does it have anything to do with AE who was a mere minor Syrian general that held power for only 13 years BETWEEN the 3rd and 4th kingdoms identified in the metal man image. Just because he defiled the temple, murdered some 10,000 Jews does not make him a person that meets any of the criteria in Daniel. He is not really an important figure in our history books. The little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome.

Now, if you would like to discuss this little horn and the prophecies in Daniel, that would be great. Maybe you might want to take another look at post #857?

 

[ewq1938]

Correction, the scripture means to say:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that [spirit of] antichrist shall come , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Yet it does not say that because the AC he is speaking of will come in the future. This does not say the spirit of the AC, nor does the bible ever use "men of sin" but "man of sin". All changes made to the texts to make them say something different. These things are known as Antichrist denial.

 

[CrowCross]

Understanding 2 Thes.2:3 in biblical context, is in two parts. Both parts must be interpreted correctly in order to understand the true prophetic fulfilment.
The KJV interprets the first part correctly with the words "a falling away".

As for the second part, one must discern by the Holy Spirit, (and not decipher by grammar) whether that man of sin is to be understood in the singular or in the plural.

2 Thes. 2:4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
We can safely conclude that "a falling away" is in reference to "and that man of sin", as being the subject that shall fall away.

So then, the words: "a falling away" implies that there are MANY people that shall fall away. But, if it be only ONE person that shall fall away, then the context doesn't support that conclusion, simply because the words "that man of sin" can be understood in the plural just as equally as it is understood in the singular.

By the Holy Spirit within me, I understand the words: "and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" to be in the plural.
Why?? There are more than one person who is "the son of perdition [destruction]".
In fact, there are MANY who are the son of perdition that SHALL "fall away".

Yes, that is correct, there are MANY antichrists, NOT just only one! The reason for the many is because it is "that spirit of antichrist" that infects many. 1 John 4:3.
Did you know that in the KJV Bible, one will NOT find the words written: "THE Antichrist".

Sounds like you have to imply a meaning to a term that is there.

The departure or the gathering mentioned 2 verses before is the same thing as the Restrainer being removed.

When the Christian restrainers are removed...no more prayers holding back the antichrist...it's game on.

 

[CrowCross]

"Thomas Ice" presently teaches that the words (Falling Away/Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a future secret rapture of the church to heaven, "Thomas Ice" is a false teacher

The scripture teaches that the word Apostasia (Falling Away/Departure) is from the faith once held, a defection from truth

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Thes 2:3...doesn't mention faith. It's not there. It's been added.

The departure is speaking about what is brought up 2 verses prior...the gathering.
The departure also speaks of the following verse...the Restrainer is gone.
The church is the restrainer working along with the Holy Spirit.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well, we are clearly miles apart on this topic.

Yes I knew that.

And it all begins within the interpretations of the Book of Daniel. And once Daniel is understood, then Revelation will seem like a piece of cake - especially concerning the "short period at the time of the end" that you mentioned. But the little horn does not arrive at the end of time

Correction: The little period of period will arrive at the end of time after God first seal all of His People. Nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanes IV, 70AD, Pegan Roman, Roman Catholic Church, etc. This is where we are clearly miles apart on the timing of the little horn. :-)

and he is not symbolic figure - God has given us just too much information on this fellow in Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 11, 2 Thessalonians 2, and of course in Revelation. He, the little horn will continue until he is destroyed without human hands.... Daniel 7 gives us his time of arrival and identity....

The little horn is not a symbolic or physical figure. Not a human figure. It is the power for a little season. We need to understand what dark sentence means:

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

In these contexts it refers to the Word, as it is the gospel, the hidden wisdom of God delineated in mysteries, proverbs, parables, riddles etc. In fact, the word used is actually translated riddle 9 times. By Daniel chapter 8 declaring that this ruler that arises will have understanding of dark sentences, God is portraying him as a pastor/preacher/minister of the gospel. Dark sentences or Dark Sayings [chiydah] in scripture are a synonym for the mysteries of God's word, which in a sense is hidden or as a riddle not easily understood. By contrast:

Numbers 12:7-8

• "My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
• With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

That word translated "dark Speech" is the same word translated dark sayings. In this context it means God will not speak to God in dark sayings, but very plainly!

God's word is "normally" written cryptically, with deeper spiritual meanings, in secrets, hidden mysteries, proverbs, parables, etc. As others already said, we can get some idea of its meaning by considering the context of the passages that employ the phrase:

Psalms 78:1-2

• "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
• I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:"

Proverbs 1:5-6

• "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
• To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Dark sayings is the same word translated dark sentences. It is equated to understanding of God's cryptic word.

In the context of Daniel and the Evil Ruler rising and his ministers, it means he will be a minister of the gospel, having an understanding to use God's word craftily, cunningly to gain advantage of the Church. That old serpent Satan, as the snake in the Garden, understands the law of God to a certain degree, but like his disciples is "subtle" to twist it to his own advantage. That is to say, he is the "false Christ," the seducer to use God's dark sayings of scripture to trick or deceive the people that they would forsake Christ while thinking they serve him (John 16:2). Satan is the master deceiver and the father of lies, and his army of false prophets and christs (transgressors) comes in full that same subtle and subtil way, masquerading imperceptibly as those of love Gods, who bring peace and who minister righteousness. As Satan coming in the Garden asking cleverly, "Hath God Said?" Another way to say Antichrist, literally, is to say PseudoChrist or Substitute Christ (FalseChrist). Jesus warned of the false Christs, and He wasn't talking about the few mentally ill persons who actually claim they are Christ. For they don't deceive anyone, agree? Those coming insomuch as they would deceive the very elect if it were possible. Why? These are the False Christs far more sinister and dangerous than some mentally ill individuals claiming to be the Messiah. Let's not foreget, God's word doesn't warn us that Satan comes as a messenger of light for nothing. It's because he comes as a minister of the gospel, of dark sentences, shrewdly praising God with his mouth and subverting with a bible in his hand. As the Priests in Christ's day, understanding dark sentences, but with no "Spiritual" discernment.

2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

• "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
• And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Satan himself comes "appearing" as a Messenger of light and life, an ambassador of the gospel, when he is really the Messenger/Angel of death and darkness. So it is no great thing if his ministers also come appearing as "ministers of righteousness." And that is exactly what Daniel chapter 8 means when speaking of this ruler that shall arise, understanding dark sayings, and "thus" causing great destruction and apostasy in the congregation.

Daniel 8:23-25

• "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, [chiydah] shall stand up.
• And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
• And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

The false prophets and christs of the New Testament congregation at the latter time are the transgressors are come to the full, then Satan is loosed and work through men, used by God, to bring judgment upon that unfaithful Church. He destroys the holy people (Elect) by his understanding of dark sayings (false doctrine), that he may deceive them thereby. That he may sit to rule as king instead of Jesus Christ, in the Holy Temple of God "as if" he were God (2nd Thessalonians 2). His ministers are those serving him and yet coming with praises of God in their mouths. Those having their lips dripping with the juices of spiritual fornication as ministers of Satan while espoused to Christ. They are the false prophets and christs like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, etc. They are deceiving their people in the congregation who have not yet seal by God (Revelation 9) as a judgment while the Elect recognize this abomination of desolation and flee from unfaithful church to avoid partake of God's judgment (plagues of Revelation). This is the hour of the little horn - the power of the false prophets and christs who received power from Satan for one hour, symbolically short season.

Selah!

 

[CTK]

Yes I knew that.


Correction: The little period of period will arrive at the end of time after God first seal all of His People. Nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanes IV, 70AD, Pegan Roman, Roman Catholic Church, etc. This is where we are clearly miles apart on the timing of the little horn. :-)



The little horn is not a symbolic or physical figure. Not a human figure. It is the power for a little season. We need to understand what dark sentence means:

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

In these contexts it refers to the Word, as it is the gospel, the hidden wisdom of God delineated in mysteries, proverbs, parables, riddles etc. In fact, the word used is actually translated riddle 9 times. By Daniel chapter 8 declaring that this ruler that arises will have understanding of dark sentences, God is portraying him as a pastor/preacher/minister of the gospel. Dark sentences or Dark Sayings [chiydah] in scripture are a synonym for the mysteries of God's word, which in a sense is hidden or as a riddle not easily understood. By contrast:

Numbers 12:7-8

• "My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
• With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

That word translated "dark Speech" is the same word translated dark sayings. In this context it means God will not speak to God in dark sayings, but very plainly!

God's word is "normally" written cryptically, with deeper spiritual meanings, in secrets, hidden mysteries, proverbs, parables, etc. As others already said, we can get some idea of its meaning by considering the context of the passages that employ the phrase:

Psalms 78:1-2

• "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
• I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:"

Proverbs 1:5-6

• "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
• To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Dark sayings is the same word translated dark sentences. It is equated to understanding of God's cryptic word.

In the context of Daniel and the Evil Ruler rising and his ministers, it means he will be a minister of the gospel, having an understanding to use God's word craftily, cunningly to gain advantage of the Church. That old serpent Satan, as the snake in the Garden, understands the law of God to a certain degree, but like his disciples is "subtle" to twist it to his own advantage. That is to say, he is the "false Christ," the seducer to use God's dark sayings of scripture to trick or deceive the people that they would forsake Christ while thinking they serve him (John 16:2). Satan is the master deceiver and the father of lies, and his army of false prophets and christs (transgressors) comes in full that same subtle and subtil way, masquerading imperceptibly as those of love Gods, who bring peace and who minister righteousness. As Satan coming in the Garden asking cleverly, "Hath God Said?" Another way to say Antichrist, literally, is to say PseudoChrist or Substitute Christ (FalseChrist). Jesus warned of the false Christs, and He wasn't talking about the few mentally ill persons who actually claim they are Christ. For they don't deceive anyone, agree? Those coming insomuch as they would deceive the very elect if it were possible. Why? These are the False Christs far more sinister and dangerous than some mentally ill individuals claiming to be the Messiah. Let's not foreget, God's word doesn't warn us that Satan comes as a messenger of light for nothing. It's because he comes as a minister of the gospel, of dark sentences, shrewdly praising God with his mouth and subverting with a bible in his hand. As the Priests in Christ's day, understanding dark sentences, but with no "Spiritual" discernment.

2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

• "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
• And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Satan himself comes "appearing" as a Messenger of light and life, an ambassador of the gospel, when he is really the Messenger/Angel of death and darkness. So it is no great thing if his ministers also come appearing as "ministers of righteousness." And that is exactly what Daniel chapter 8 means when speaking of this ruler that shall arise, understanding dark sayings, and "thus" causing great destruction and apostasy in the congregation.

Daniel 8:23-25

• "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, [chiydah] shall stand up.
• And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
• And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

The false prophets and christs of the New Testament congregation at the latter time are the transgressors are come to the full, then Satan is loosed and work through men, used by God, to bring judgment upon that unfaithful Church. He destroys the holy people (Elect) by his understanding of dark sayings (false doctrine), that he may deceive them thereby. That he may sit to rule as king instead of Jesus Christ, in the Holy Temple of God "as if" he were God (2nd Thessalonians 2). His ministers are those serving him and yet coming with praises of God in their mouths. Those having their lips dripping with the juices of spiritual fornication as ministers of Satan while espoused to Christ. They are the false prophets and christs like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, etc. They are deceiving their people in the congregation who have not yet seal by God (Revelation 9) as a judgment while the Elect recognize this abomination of desolation and flee from unfaithful church to avoid partake of God's judgment (plagues of Revelation). This is the hour of the little horn - the power of the false prophets and christs who received power from Satan for one hour, symbolically short season.

Selah!

There is a lot of comments here but I do not see much that represents the interpretations of Daniel - and this is where He identifies the little horn, and all of the prophecies of his coming (Daniel 7 and 8).

God gave us the Book of Daniel to interpret.... and He does not give us vague prophecies - He is deliberate, accurate and complete in all His ways. The most important prophecies begin at the beginning - in chapter 2. Chapter 2 provides the formal structure of His kingdoms, kings, conflicts, prophecies, actors that play a part in His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind. Chapter 2 gives us the formal borders and boundaries for each of the 4 kingdoms, the kings within them, and is identifies the location and time where His prophecies will take place. Chapter 7, 8, 9 and 11 follow and stay within those boundaries.

If we do not get chapter 2 right, there is absolutely no chance to interpret the rest of Daniel (chapters 7-12). Do you have a complete and thorough understanding of chapter 2 including , 2:34-35 and 2:41-45?

There is no reason to jump to Daniel 8, or discuss proverbs, Psalms, 2 Corinthians, etc., until and unless we unpack the Book of Daniel beginning with chapter 2.