Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Earburner]

Argument from silence fallacy. If the concept is there, using "the" is valid. John does isolate a singular, future AC so in English that AC can be called "the AC" as in "that specific AC".

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Correction, the scripture means to say:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that [spirit of] antichrist shall come , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, you just loss a lot of credibility in your assignation attempt of a Godly man....just because he disagrees with you.

The funny thing is Thomas Ice....whether he is a false teacher of not..through the article I presented QUOTED early christians...that is, didn't make it up. It's ACTUALLY what they wrote.
BUT...you label him as false for presenting material THAT PROVED A PRE-DARBY BELIEF IN A RAPTURE? What do you have to say for yourself???

Personally I would remove Truth7t7 from your name.

"Thomas Ice" presently teaches that the words (Falling Away/Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a future secret rapture of the church to heaven, "Thomas Ice" is a false teacher

The scripture teaches that the word Apostasia (Falling Away/Departure) is from the faith once held, a defection from truth

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[CTK]

You are getting warmer. I have been teaching that the horn in Scripture symbolizes power. The little horn represents a short period of a greater apostate power — a continuation of the same opposition against Christ and His Church that has been working throughout history, but intensified immediately before the Second Coming - especially after God has finished sealed all of His Elect first.

It is a short season when the mystery of iniquity or lawlessness is brought into greater revelation, allowing many of the Elect to recognize that the appointed season has arrived and that Christ’s return is near. This is what the symbolism of the little horn points to.

And yes, this has nothing to do with the premillennial interpretation that teaches the little horn is a single individual man they believe will be Antichrist figure with supernatural power. That interpretation overlooks the broader biblical pattern of horns representing kingdoms, powers, and authorities that oppose God’s people.

Well, we are clearly miles apart on this topic. And it all begins within the interpretations of the Book of Daniel. And once Daniel is understood, then Revelation will seem like a piece of cake - especially concerning the "short period at the time of the end" that you mentioned. But the little horn does not arrive at the end of time and he is not symbolic figure - God has given us just too much information on this fellow in Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 11, 2 Thessalonians 2, and of course in Revelation. He, the little horn will continue until he is destroyed without human hands.... Daniel 7 gives us his time of arrival and identity....

However, should you like to offer your interpretations of Daniel 2, 7 and 8 only (slowly of course), you might find realized who God has been discussing all along.

 

[CTK]

Sorry, there is no "little horn" to come now or in any future. The prophecy about the "little horn" was fulfilled and fleshed out in the man named Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
You can read the historic account about the 2300 days in the book of 1&2 Maccabees.

Today, the Jews still celebrate Hanukkah about Judas Maccabeus. He and his army restored the temple, in which Antiochus committed "the abomination that maketh desolate".
Do you know of anyone that did something in likeness to Judas Maccabeus, about the Restoration of a temple also? One that isn't made of stone.
Through the book of Daniel, such a person pointed to that historic time of Jewish history.
Does anyone here understand how to apply "type and anti-type" in the bible?

With all due respect, God has indeed made this fellow known - the timing of his arrival, his characteristics, where he comes from, why he comes out, and simply so many more detailed pieces of information found in Daniel 7and 8. These are indeed not a type and shadow of an evil one that will come at the end of time, nor does it have anything to do with AE who was a mere minor Syrian general that held power for only 13 years BETWEEN the 3rd and 4th kingdoms identified in the metal man image. Just because he defiled the temple, murdered some 10,000 Jews does not make him a person that meets any of the criteria in Daniel. He is not really an important figure in our history books. The little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome.

Now, if you would like to discuss this little horn and the prophecies in Daniel, that would be great. Maybe you might want to take another look at post #857?

 

[ewq1938]

Correction, the scripture means to say:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that [spirit of] antichrist shall come , even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Yet it does not say that because the AC he is speaking of will come in the future. This does not say the spirit of the AC, nor does the bible ever use "men of sin" but "man of sin". All changes made to the texts to make them say something different. These things are known as Antichrist denial.

 

[CrowCross]

Understanding 2 Thes.2:3 in biblical context, is in two parts. Both parts must be interpreted correctly in order to understand the true prophetic fulfilment.
The KJV interprets the first part correctly with the words "a falling away".

As for the second part, one must discern by the Holy Spirit, (and not decipher by grammar) whether that man of sin is to be understood in the singular or in the plural.

2 Thes. 2:4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
We can safely conclude that "a falling away" is in reference to "and that man of sin", as being the subject that shall fall away.

So then, the words: "a falling away" implies that there are MANY people that shall fall away. But, if it be only ONE person that shall fall away, then the context doesn't support that conclusion, simply because the words "that man of sin" can be understood in the plural just as equally as it is understood in the singular.

By the Holy Spirit within me, I understand the words: "and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" to be in the plural.
Why?? There are more than one person who is "the son of perdition [destruction]".
In fact, there are MANY who are the son of perdition that SHALL "fall away".

Yes, that is correct, there are MANY antichrists, NOT just only one! The reason for the many is because it is "that spirit of antichrist" that infects many. 1 John 4:3.
Did you know that in the KJV Bible, one will NOT find the words written: "THE Antichrist".

Sounds like you have to imply a meaning to a term that is there.

The departure or the gathering mentioned 2 verses before is the same thing as the Restrainer being removed.

When the Christian restrainers are removed...no more prayers holding back the antichrist...it's game on.

 

[CrowCross]

"Thomas Ice" presently teaches that the words (Falling Away/Departure) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a future secret rapture of the church to heaven, "Thomas Ice" is a false teacher

The scripture teaches that the word Apostasia (Falling Away/Departure) is from the faith once held, a defection from truth

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Thes 2:3...doesn't mention faith. It's not there. It's been added.

The departure is speaking about what is brought up 2 verses prior...the gathering.
The departure also speaks of the following verse...the Restrainer is gone.
The church is the restrainer working along with the Holy Spirit.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well, we are clearly miles apart on this topic.

Yes I knew that.

And it all begins within the interpretations of the Book of Daniel. And once Daniel is understood, then Revelation will seem like a piece of cake - especially concerning the "short period at the time of the end" that you mentioned. But the little horn does not arrive at the end of time

Correction: The little period of period will arrive at the end of time after God first seal all of His People. Nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanes IV, 70AD, Pegan Roman, Roman Catholic Church, etc. This is where we are clearly miles apart on the timing of the little horn. :-)

and he is not symbolic figure - God has given us just too much information on this fellow in Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 11, 2 Thessalonians 2, and of course in Revelation. He, the little horn will continue until he is destroyed without human hands.... Daniel 7 gives us his time of arrival and identity....

The little horn is not a symbolic or physical figure. Not a human figure. It is the power for a little season. We need to understand what dark sentence means:

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

In these contexts it refers to the Word, as it is the gospel, the hidden wisdom of God delineated in mysteries, proverbs, parables, riddles etc. In fact, the word used is actually translated riddle 9 times. By Daniel chapter 8 declaring that this ruler that arises will have understanding of dark sentences, God is portraying him as a pastor/preacher/minister of the gospel. Dark sentences or Dark Sayings [chiydah] in scripture are a synonym for the mysteries of God's word, which in a sense is hidden or as a riddle not easily understood. By contrast:

Numbers 12:7-8

• "My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
• With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

That word translated "dark Speech" is the same word translated dark sayings. In this context it means God will not speak to God in dark sayings, but very plainly!

God's word is "normally" written cryptically, with deeper spiritual meanings, in secrets, hidden mysteries, proverbs, parables, etc. As others already said, we can get some idea of its meaning by considering the context of the passages that employ the phrase:

Psalms 78:1-2

• "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
• I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:"

Proverbs 1:5-6

• "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
• To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Dark sayings is the same word translated dark sentences. It is equated to understanding of God's cryptic word.

In the context of Daniel and the Evil Ruler rising and his ministers, it means he will be a minister of the gospel, having an understanding to use God's word craftily, cunningly to gain advantage of the Church. That old serpent Satan, as the snake in the Garden, understands the law of God to a certain degree, but like his disciples is "subtle" to twist it to his own advantage. That is to say, he is the "false Christ," the seducer to use God's dark sayings of scripture to trick or deceive the people that they would forsake Christ while thinking they serve him (John 16:2). Satan is the master deceiver and the father of lies, and his army of false prophets and christs (transgressors) comes in full that same subtle and subtil way, masquerading imperceptibly as those of love Gods, who bring peace and who minister righteousness. As Satan coming in the Garden asking cleverly, "Hath God Said?" Another way to say Antichrist, literally, is to say PseudoChrist or Substitute Christ (FalseChrist). Jesus warned of the false Christs, and He wasn't talking about the few mentally ill persons who actually claim they are Christ. For they don't deceive anyone, agree? Those coming insomuch as they would deceive the very elect if it were possible. Why? These are the False Christs far more sinister and dangerous than some mentally ill individuals claiming to be the Messiah. Let's not foreget, God's word doesn't warn us that Satan comes as a messenger of light for nothing. It's because he comes as a minister of the gospel, of dark sentences, shrewdly praising God with his mouth and subverting with a bible in his hand. As the Priests in Christ's day, understanding dark sentences, but with no "Spiritual" discernment.

2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

• "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
• And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Satan himself comes "appearing" as a Messenger of light and life, an ambassador of the gospel, when he is really the Messenger/Angel of death and darkness. So it is no great thing if his ministers also come appearing as "ministers of righteousness." And that is exactly what Daniel chapter 8 means when speaking of this ruler that shall arise, understanding dark sayings, and "thus" causing great destruction and apostasy in the congregation.

Daniel 8:23-25

• "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, [chiydah] shall stand up.
• And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
• And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

The false prophets and christs of the New Testament congregation at the latter time are the transgressors are come to the full, then Satan is loosed and work through men, used by God, to bring judgment upon that unfaithful Church. He destroys the holy people (Elect) by his understanding of dark sayings (false doctrine), that he may deceive them thereby. That he may sit to rule as king instead of Jesus Christ, in the Holy Temple of God "as if" he were God (2nd Thessalonians 2). His ministers are those serving him and yet coming with praises of God in their mouths. Those having their lips dripping with the juices of spiritual fornication as ministers of Satan while espoused to Christ. They are the false prophets and christs like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, etc. They are deceiving their people in the congregation who have not yet seal by God (Revelation 9) as a judgment while the Elect recognize this abomination of desolation and flee from unfaithful church to avoid partake of God's judgment (plagues of Revelation). This is the hour of the little horn - the power of the false prophets and christs who received power from Satan for one hour, symbolically short season.

Selah!

 

[CTK]

Yes I knew that.


Correction: The little period of period will arrive at the end of time after God first seal all of His People. Nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanes IV, 70AD, Pegan Roman, Roman Catholic Church, etc. This is where we are clearly miles apart on the timing of the little horn. :-)



The little horn is not a symbolic or physical figure. Not a human figure. It is the power for a little season. We need to understand what dark sentence means:

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

In these contexts it refers to the Word, as it is the gospel, the hidden wisdom of God delineated in mysteries, proverbs, parables, riddles etc. In fact, the word used is actually translated riddle 9 times. By Daniel chapter 8 declaring that this ruler that arises will have understanding of dark sentences, God is portraying him as a pastor/preacher/minister of the gospel. Dark sentences or Dark Sayings [chiydah] in scripture are a synonym for the mysteries of God's word, which in a sense is hidden or as a riddle not easily understood. By contrast:

Numbers 12:7-8

• "My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
• With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

That word translated "dark Speech" is the same word translated dark sayings. In this context it means God will not speak to God in dark sayings, but very plainly!

God's word is "normally" written cryptically, with deeper spiritual meanings, in secrets, hidden mysteries, proverbs, parables, etc. As others already said, we can get some idea of its meaning by considering the context of the passages that employ the phrase:

Psalms 78:1-2

• "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
• I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:"

Proverbs 1:5-6

• "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
• To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

Dark sayings is the same word translated dark sentences. It is equated to understanding of God's cryptic word.

In the context of Daniel and the Evil Ruler rising and his ministers, it means he will be a minister of the gospel, having an understanding to use God's word craftily, cunningly to gain advantage of the Church. That old serpent Satan, as the snake in the Garden, understands the law of God to a certain degree, but like his disciples is "subtle" to twist it to his own advantage. That is to say, he is the "false Christ," the seducer to use God's dark sayings of scripture to trick or deceive the people that they would forsake Christ while thinking they serve him (John 16:2). Satan is the master deceiver and the father of lies, and his army of false prophets and christs (transgressors) comes in full that same subtle and subtil way, masquerading imperceptibly as those of love Gods, who bring peace and who minister righteousness. As Satan coming in the Garden asking cleverly, "Hath God Said?" Another way to say Antichrist, literally, is to say PseudoChrist or Substitute Christ (FalseChrist). Jesus warned of the false Christs, and He wasn't talking about the few mentally ill persons who actually claim they are Christ. For they don't deceive anyone, agree? Those coming insomuch as they would deceive the very elect if it were possible. Why? These are the False Christs far more sinister and dangerous than some mentally ill individuals claiming to be the Messiah. Let's not foreget, God's word doesn't warn us that Satan comes as a messenger of light for nothing. It's because he comes as a minister of the gospel, of dark sentences, shrewdly praising God with his mouth and subverting with a bible in his hand. As the Priests in Christ's day, understanding dark sentences, but with no "Spiritual" discernment.

2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

• "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
• And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Satan himself comes "appearing" as a Messenger of light and life, an ambassador of the gospel, when he is really the Messenger/Angel of death and darkness. So it is no great thing if his ministers also come appearing as "ministers of righteousness." And that is exactly what Daniel chapter 8 means when speaking of this ruler that shall arise, understanding dark sayings, and "thus" causing great destruction and apostasy in the congregation.

Daniel 8:23-25

• "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, [chiydah] shall stand up.
• And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
• And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

The false prophets and christs of the New Testament congregation at the latter time are the transgressors are come to the full, then Satan is loosed and work through men, used by God, to bring judgment upon that unfaithful Church. He destroys the holy people (Elect) by his understanding of dark sayings (false doctrine), that he may deceive them thereby. That he may sit to rule as king instead of Jesus Christ, in the Holy Temple of God "as if" he were God (2nd Thessalonians 2). His ministers are those serving him and yet coming with praises of God in their mouths. Those having their lips dripping with the juices of spiritual fornication as ministers of Satan while espoused to Christ. They are the false prophets and christs like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, etc. They are deceiving their people in the congregation who have not yet seal by God (Revelation 9) as a judgment while the Elect recognize this abomination of desolation and flee from unfaithful church to avoid partake of God's judgment (plagues of Revelation). This is the hour of the little horn - the power of the false prophets and christs who received power from Satan for one hour, symbolically short season.

Selah!

There is a lot of comments here but I do not see much that represents the interpretations of Daniel - and this is where He identifies the little horn, and all of the prophecies of his coming (Daniel 7 and 8).

God gave us the Book of Daniel to interpret.... and He does not give us vague prophecies - He is deliberate, accurate and complete in all His ways. The most important prophecies begin at the beginning - in chapter 2. Chapter 2 provides the formal structure of His kingdoms, kings, conflicts, prophecies, actors that play a part in His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind. Chapter 2 gives us the formal borders and boundaries for each of the 4 kingdoms, the kings within them, and is identifies the location and time where His prophecies will take place. Chapter 7, 8, 9 and 11 follow and stay within those boundaries.

If we do not get chapter 2 right, there is absolutely no chance to interpret the rest of Daniel (chapters 7-12). Do you have a complete and thorough understanding of chapter 2 including , 2:34-35 and 2:41-45?

There is no reason to jump to Daniel 8, or discuss proverbs, Psalms, 2 Corinthians, etc., until and unless we unpack the Book of Daniel beginning with chapter 2.

 

[TribulationSigns]

God gave us the Book of Daniel to interpret

Wrong. It is His interpretation that we must seek and find in His Word—not our own private interpretation.

We study the book of Daniel by comparing Scripture with Scripture and allowing the Bible to reveal God’s meaning behind His prophecies. We should not rely on current events, world news, history books, or human speculation to determine the interpretation. The true understanding of prophecy comes from finding the interpretation that God has already given through His Word.

.... and He does not give us vague prophecies.

Correct, what made you think God is trying to do? Giving us vague prophecies? LOL.

- He is deliberate, accurate and complete in all His ways.

It is His Word. We find His interpretation by compare Scripture with Scripture. You have to find it.

The most important prophecies begin at the beginning - in chapter 2. Chapter 2 provides the formal structure of His kingdoms, kings, conflicts, prophecies, actors that play a part in His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind.

If you are going apply to physical empires like some Church tradition then no. I do not place Church tradition upon a pedestal, because I have God's Word already up there, and it doesn't share rule. You see, since God is not speaking to us today verbally from the smoke on the mountain, or out of the burning Bush, or out of the mouth of an donkey, the scriptures alone (Sola Scriptura) are our direct authoritative word for interpretation from God. In other words, God's very own word is the only voice than can be the supreme interpreter of God's own word. Because who better to get the interpretation from, than "the Author!" Sadly, that is a principle which most of the Church of our day seems oblivious to.

Genesis 40:8

• "And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."

Yes, Interpretations belong to God. It's not, "let me get my book of interpretations by my favorite Preterist Teacher, Hal Lindsey, Josephus, or YouTube influencer. " and it's not, "let me inquire of the news in the Middle East or stars in the space what something means," and it's not, "let me see how the great Church men of renowned interpret this verse," but Interpretations belong to God. And the immutable law is, "if it didn't come from God's word, then it's not God's interpretation."

Chapter 2 gives us the formal borders and boundaries for each of the 4 kingdoms, the kings within them, and is identifies the location and time where His prophecies will take place. Chapter 7, 8, 9 and 11 follow and stay within those boundaries.

Sorry, I understand your point which I used to teach, but I believe Daniel 2 is being interpreted too much through the lens of earthly kingdoms, borders, and political geography. God is not primarily revealing a map of physical empires or giving us a timeline based on human kingdoms.

The image in Daniel 2 represents something much deeper: the spiritual conflict between the kingdom of man and the kingdom of God. The four kingdoms are not merely identified by their political boundaries, but by what they represent spiritually. They are types of human authority, power, and rebellion against God that continue throughout history until Christ establishes His everlasting kingdom.

The stone “cut out without hands” is the key. It does not destroy only one physical empire; it strikes the entire image and brings an end to the whole system of human spiritual dominion. This shows that Daniel 2 is ultimately about God’s kingdom overcoming all earthly powers, not simply replacing one empire with another.

The later visions in Daniel 7, 8, 9, and 11 should also be understood within the same spiritual framework. They expand on the same theme of opposition against God, the persecution of His people, the rise of rebellious powers, and the ultimate victory of Christ. Scripture interprets Scripture—not world events, political borders, or history books.

The kingdoms in Daniel are significant because of what they represent in God’s redemptive plan, not because of their geographic boundaries. The focus is not on earthly empire charts, but on the conflict between the kingdom of darkness and the everlasting kingdom of our Lord. I believe God is not giving us a "literal" history lesson about Greece and Persia, but a "spiritual" history lesson about a far more sinister spiritual rule. Christ is the prince of peace, what kingdom does He rule? Likewise, Satan is the Prince of this world, thus what kingdom does he rule? Their rules are not from physical nation, physical thrones, or West Wing of the White House. But from spiritual principalities, Ephesians 6:12. This is what many of people like you don't understand.

Whether we like it or not, God is here telling us that our battle is NOT against the power of physical empires, it's not even physical, it's not political, it's not against nations, it's against a "spiritual principality, a spiritual power and spiritual wickedness." Everyone reads these things but few take it to heart.

Colossians 2:14-15

• "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
• And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

These Principalities and powers that Christ spoiled was not Persia or Rome, it wasn't Greece or Egypt, but it was spiritual "Egypt" and spiritual principalities and rulers of the darkness of this world. The Christian must take his mind off the nations of this world and think on a nation from above and just HOW it is being attacked. Take our eyes off this world and put them on Christ.

Do you have a complete and thorough understanding of chapter 2 including , 2:34-35 and 2:41-45?

I am pretty sure I have some correct understanding of chapter 2 but I am not ready to share with people here in full at this moment, as I can see why with the subject on Satan and the angels.

There is no reason to jump to Daniel 8, or discuss proverbs, Psalms, 2 Corinthians, etc., until and unless we unpack the Book of Daniel beginning with chapter 2.

All gospel, including, Daniel, should be compared with the rest of Scripture regardless. No chapter or book should be standing outside of the Bible which is the authoritative of God's Word.

 

[ewq1938]

2 Thes 2:3...doesn't mention faith. It's not there. It's been added.

It's what trhe word apostasia means. It's a moral departure not a physical departure.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament: apostasia-defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. apostasis, freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.

 

[Truth7t7]

The departure also speaks of the following verse...the Restrainer is gone.
The church is the restrainer working along with the Holy Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Apostasia, falling away, departure, defection from truth, isn't a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, try reading Greek Scholar Dr. James Strong again and again (Apostasia) G647

Apostasia (Defection From Truth)

Strong’s Definitions KJV: Falling Away
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

 

[CTK]

Wrong. It is His interpretation that we must seek and find in His Word—not our own private interpretation.

We study the book of Daniel by comparing Scripture with Scripture and allowing the Bible to reveal God’s meaning behind His prophecies. We should not rely on current events, world news, history books, or human speculation to determine the interpretation. The true understanding of prophecy comes from finding the interpretation that God has already given through His Word.



Correct, what made you think God is trying to do? Giving us vague prophecies? LOL.


It is His Word. We find His interpretation by compare Scripture with Scripture. You have to find it.


If you are going apply to physical empires like some Church tradition then no. I do not place Church tradition upon a pedestal, because I have God's Word already up there, and it doesn't share rule. You see, since God is not speaking to us today verbally from the smoke on the mountain, or out of the burning Bush, or out of the mouth of an donkey, the scriptures alone (Sola Scriptura) are our direct authoritative word for interpretation from God. In other words, God's very own word is the only voice than can be the supreme interpreter of God's own word. Because who better to get the interpretation from, than "the Author!" Sadly, that is a principle which most of the Church of our day seems oblivious to.

Genesis 40:8

• "And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."

Yes, Interpretations belong to God. It's not, "let me get my book of interpretations by my favorite Preterist Teacher, Hal Lindsey, Josephus, or YouTube influencer. " and it's not, "let me inquire of the news in the Middle East or stars in the space what something means," and it's not, "let me see how the great Church men of renowned interpret this verse," but Interpretations belong to God. And the immutable law is, "if it didn't come from God's word, then it's not God's interpretation."


Sorry, I understand your point which I used to teach, but I believe Daniel 2 is being interpreted too much through the lens of earthly kingdoms, borders, and political geography. God is not primarily revealing a map of physical empires or giving us a timeline based on human kingdoms.

The image in Daniel 2 represents something much deeper: the spiritual conflict between the kingdom of man and the kingdom of God. The four kingdoms are not merely identified by their political boundaries, but by what they represent spiritually. They are types of human authority, power, and rebellion against God that continue throughout history until Christ establishes His everlasting kingdom.

The stone “cut out without hands” is the key. It does not destroy only one physical empire; it strikes the entire image and brings an end to the whole system of human spiritual dominion. This shows that Daniel 2 is ultimately about God’s kingdom overcoming all earthly powers, not simply replacing one empire with another.

The later visions in Daniel 7, 8, 9, and 11 should also be understood within the same spiritual framework. They expand on the same theme of opposition against God, the persecution of His people, the rise of rebellious powers, and the ultimate victory of Christ. Scripture interprets Scripture—not world events, political borders, or history books.

The kingdoms in Daniel are significant because of what they represent in God’s redemptive plan, not because of their geographic boundaries. The focus is not on earthly empire charts, but on the conflict between the kingdom of darkness and the everlasting kingdom of our Lord. I believe God is not giving us a "literal" history lesson about Greece and Persia, but a "spiritual" history lesson about a far more sinister spiritual rule. Christ is the prince of peace, what kingdom does He rule? Likewise, Satan is the Prince of this world, thus what kingdom does he rule? Their rules are not from physical nation, physical thrones, or West Wing of the White House. But from spiritual principalities, Ephesians 6:12. This is what many of people like you don't understand.

Whether we like it or not, God is here telling us that our battle is NOT against the power of physical empires, it's not even physical, it's not political, it's not against nations, it's against a "spiritual principality, a spiritual power and spiritual wickedness." Everyone reads these things but few take it to heart.

Colossians 2:14-15

• "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
• And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

These Principalities and powers that Christ spoiled was not Persia or Rome, it wasn't Greece or Egypt, but it was spiritual "Egypt" and spiritual principalities and rulers of the darkness of this world. The Christian must take his mind off the nations of this world and think on a nation from above and just HOW it is being attacked. Take our eyes off this world and put them on Christ.


I am pretty sure I have some correct understanding of chapter 2 but I am not ready to share with people here in full at this moment, as I can see why with the subject on Satan and the angels.


All gospel, including, Daniel, should be compared with the rest of Scripture regardless. No chapter or book should be standing outside of the Bible which is the authoritative of God's Word.

Our approaches to Daniel and to Scripture are simply too different. You repeatedly insist that Scripture must interpret Scripture, yet when Daniel itself gives clear historical identifications, you seem willing to redefine them as something primarily spiritual whenever that better fits your framework.

And that creates a much larger problem. Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, and 11 are not disconnected prophecies that can be interpreted independently according to whatever method seems useful at the moment. They are carefully constructed, deeply interconnected, and move forward in a remarkably ordered way. They are built upon sequence, succession, identifiable kingdoms, rulers, timing, actions, and repeated parallels from one vision to the next.

God begins in Daniel 2 by establishing the broad framework through four distinct kingdoms. He deliberately uses four different metals and specific parts of the image to establish the boundaries within which the prophecy unfolds. Those kingdoms do not casually bleed into one another, nor does Daniel leave us free to move prophetic actors and events wherever we choose. Each kingdom occupies its place in the sequence, and the events associated with it must remain within the historical and prophetic boundaries God has established.

Daniel 7 then returns to the same succession and adds further detail. Daniel 8 becomes even more specific by identifying Medo-Persia and Greece by name. Daniel 9 places the Messiah within an identifiable historical timetable, and Daniel 11 expands still further upon the conflicts and developments taking place within that same prophetic framework - and for chapter 11, that framework is within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome.

There is a very logical reason -- for this. Daniel begins while God's people are in Babylon, their city and sanctuary destroyed. The prophetic story then follows the kingdoms that would dominate the world through which God's people would eventually return to Jerusalem, rebuild, await the Messiah, experience the fulfillment of the seventy weeks, and continue through the later conflicts Daniel was shown. God gives Daniel historical anchors precisely so that the reader can locate His prophecies in time.

That structure matters enormously.

If Babylon can cease to be Babylon, Persia can become merely a spiritual principality, Greece can be detached from the kingdom Gabriel specifically identifies, or historical events can be transformed into purely spiritual realities whenever an interpretation requires it, then the boundaries disappear. Once that happens, there is no reliable way to interpret Daniel 2, 7, 8, or 11 because virtually any symbol can be moved, spiritualized, or redefined to fit a preferred conclusion.

The internal structure God gave Daniel then loses its controlling force.

That is the difficulty I have with your approach. At one point the text is literal, at another symbolic, and at another the historical identification given within Daniel itself is set aside for a spiritual interpretation. I do not see a stable interpretive principle governing those changes. I do not believe you have a real understanding whatsoever of the chapter 2 structure that God has given us to follow all the way through the remaining 10 chapters.

Certainly Daniel contains profound spiritual warfare. The earthly kingdoms are instruments through which the larger conflict between God's kingdom and the powers opposed to Him unfolds. But the spiritual dimension does not erase the historical framework; it operates within it.

God went to extraordinary lengths to give Daniel sequence, kingdoms, symbols, rulers, timing, repetition, and interpretation so that His prophetic plan could be followed rather than endlessly reinvented.

Without respecting those boundaries and using a consistent method from chapter to chapter, I do not believe Daniel 2, 7, 8, or 11 can be interpreted with any real confidence. I do not think continuing this particular discussion will be productive.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Yes, some post rapture christians..those that become saved during the tribulation ...will be able to endure it.

Yes, the TRIBULATION saints, as well as faith they have a whole lot of do & don'ts to follow.
eg :-
- Don't take the 'mark'
..
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Earburner]

With all due respect, God has indeed made this fellow known - the timing of his arrival, his characteristics, where he comes from, why he comes out, and simply so many more detailed pieces of information found in Daniel 7and 8. These are indeed not a type and shadow of an evil one that will come at the end of time, nor does it have anything to do with AE who was a mere minor Syrian general that held power for only 13 years BETWEEN the 3rd and 4th kingdoms identified in the metal man image. Just because he defiled the temple, murdered some 10,000 Jews does not make him a person that meets any of the criteria in Daniel. He is not really an important figure in our history books. The little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome.

Now, if you would like to discuss this little horn and the prophecies in Daniel, that would be great. Maybe you might want to take another look at post #857?

If you have not read and studied 1&2 Maccabees, you will never understand that the 1290 days WITHIN the 2300 days were fulfilled by A4E (Dan. 12:11).
The math of time dates is all there in Maccabees.

 

[Earburner]

Sounds like you have to imply a meaning to a term that is there.

The departure or the gathering mentioned 2 verses before is the same thing as the Restrainer being removed.

When the Christian restrainers are removed...no more prayers holding back the antichrist...it's game on.

So, are you interpreting "antichrist" as being THE Antichrist (implying singular) or are you interpreting "antichrist" as being that spirit of antichrist (implying plural)?

 

[CTK]

If you have not read and studied 1&2 Maccabees, you will never understand that the 1290 days WITHIN the 2300 days were fulfilled by A4E (Dan. 12:11).
The math of time dates is all there in Maccabees.

Well, we certainly are allowed to have our interpretations.

 

[Davy]

You are getting warmer. I have been teaching that the horn in Scripture symbolizes power. The little horn represents a short period of a greater apostate power — a continuation of the same opposition against Christ and His Church that has been working throughout history, but intensified immediately before the Second Coming - especially after God has finished sealed all of His Elect first.

It is a short season when the mystery of iniquity or lawlessness is brought into greater revelation, allowing many of the Elect to recognize that the appointed season has arrived and that Christ’s return is near. This is what the symbolism of the little horn points to.

And yes, this has nothing to do with the premillennial interpretation that teaches the little horn is a single individual man they believe will be Antichrist figure with supernatural power. That interpretation overlooks the broader biblical pattern of horns representing kingdoms, powers, and authorities that oppose God’s people.

The "little horn" prophecy in Daniel 7:7-9 is about a singular false king that is to come up among the ten horns which we are told represent "ten kings", and that prophecy parallels the ten kings of Revelation 17 that reign with the beast (beast king), and only come to power "one hour" with the beast (king).

Thus per Bible prophecy, the "little horn" IS... about a singular individual.

 

[CrowCross]

It's what trhe word apostasia means. It's a moral departure not a physical departure.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament: apostasia-defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. apostasis, freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.

I have heard that argument several times...there seems to be a problem with it that's been accepted because ...we've always accepted that word "apostasia" to mean that....but has it?

Here's how the word apostasy was translated way back then....

The 4th generation Latin Vulgate used the word DEPARTURE.
The 1384 Wycliffe bible used DEPARTURE
The 1388 Wycliffe Purvey bible used DEPARTURE
The 1526 Tyndale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1535 Coverdale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1539 Crammer bible used DEPARTURE
The 1540 Great bible used DEPARTURE
The 1560 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
The 1576 Breeches bible used DEPARTING
The 1582 Rhiems bible used REVOLT...The first complete English Catholic translation.
The 1583 Beza bible used DEPARTING
The 1608 Geneva bible used DEPARTING


Note: The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.


The changing of the world was a theologically biased based reason rather than a literal direct translation.


The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard seen in modern bibles.

As I said in my previous post....2 Thes 2:3...doesn't mention faith. It's not there. It's been added.
Because nothing is next to the word apostasy such as faith to depart from....you must look at the text surrounding the word and derive the depart from what from the narrative being spoken about.
The narrative speaks of a gathering which is the rapture of the church AND in the next verse we read about the removal of the Restrainer which is the church working through the Holy Spirit...keeping the antichrist spirit in check via prayers, Eph 6, and doing Gods work. When the gathering of the saints via the rapture happens which removes the christian restraining influence...the antichrist now free to advance is revealed.

 

[CrowCross]

The "little horn" prophecy in Daniel 7:7-9 is about a singular false king that is to come up among the ten horns which we are told represent "ten kings", and that prophecy parallels the ten kings of Revelation 17 that reign with the beast (beast king), and only come to power "one hour" with the beast (king).

Thus per Bible prophecy, the "little horn" IS... about a singular individual.

I'm beginning to think the ten horns are ten technocrats...as the world falls into a "Rollerball" like rule as a form of corporatocracy takes control with the antichrist.

12And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.