MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[markalan]

How is that "complete" when no mark in the left hand, mouth, or either leg or foot?

Sorry, I do not understand your point.

The Greek even says forehead OR right hand not both. I think it is exactly what it says it is for, controlling who can buy and sell. It's economic not religious.

I do not believe God judges any person based on an economic decision ... we are judged on how we respond to the Gospel ... what we think/believe.
"If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath (Rev 14:9)

 

[markalan]

Gen 4:15 a visible mark that people can see otherwise how else would they know ?
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Rev 13:17 - a visible mark that people can see otherwise how else would they know ?
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
...
Scripture is my teacher, please list the verses that teach the mark is something else than a visible mark for others to see.

Peter, if you have carefully considered and compared the 15 verses I linked to in Revelation, and remain convinced that forehead/s and right hand means a physical mark, then we shall just have to agree to disagree.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, I do not understand your point.

"the "forehead" and the "right hand" indicate more than accepting a literal mark ... it is complete and willing submission to the antichrist spirit"


Point was the mark does not show a complete and willing submission to the antichrist spirit but submission to the his economic system. The worshipping of the beast and the image would show complete and willing submission to the antichrist spirit. Scripture mentions those who do all three as going to the LOF. Assuming those also refuse to repent of any of them.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Peter, if you have carefully considered and compared the 15 verses I linked to in Revelation, and remain convinced that forehead/s and right hand means a physical mark, then we shall just have to agree to disagree.

I will gladly read the verses you list that confirms the 'mark' in Gen 4:15 & Rev 13:17 are not literal & visible for everyone to clearly see.
One at a time please

 

[ewq1938]

Peter, if you have carefully considered and compared the 15 verses I linked to in Revelation, and remain convinced that forehead/s and right hand means a physical mark, then we shall just have to agree to disagree.

It does say forehead OR right hand in the Greek. Sounds like a literal mark where some type of choice or decision it made for where it is placed. They also receive the mark which means someone else marks them with this mark, not that their loyalty and service symbolically marks them.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

 

[markalan]

"the "forehead" and the "right hand" indicate more than accepting a literal mark ... it is complete and willing submission to the antichrist spirit"


Point was the mark does not show a complete and willing submission to the antichrist spirit but submission to the his economic system. The worshipping of the beast and the image would show complete and willing submission to the antichrist spirit. Scripture mentions those who do all three as going to the LOF. Assuming those also refuse to repent of any of them.

Injecting an economic decision into how people are judged by God seems contrary to the Gospel as I understand it.

 

[markalan]

I will gladly read the verses you list that confirms the 'mark' in Gen 4:15 & Rev 13:17 are not literal & visible for everyone to clearly see.
One at a time please

Are the words forehead or foreheads ever used in a symbolic way in Revelation?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Are the words forehead or foreheads ever used in a symbolic way in Revelation?

The polite friendly request is for verses not opinions.
I will gladly read the verses you list that confirms the 'mark' in Gen 4:15 & Rev 13:17 are not literal & visible for everyone to clearly see.

 

[markalan]

The polite friendly request is for verses not opinions.
I will gladly read the verses you list that confirms the 'mark' in Gen 4:15 & Rev 13:17 are not literal & visible for everyone to clearly see.

Before we can understand the "mark" we must understand forehead/s and right hand ... you're putting the cart before the horse.

If it is your opinion those words are never used in a symbolic sense in Revelation, then we have no foundation for further discussion.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Before we can understand the "mark" we must understand forehead/s and right hand ... you're putting the cart before the horse.

If it is your opinion those words are never used in a symbolic sense in Revelation, then we have no foundation for further discussion.

I will gladly read the verses you list that confirms the 'mark' in Gen 4:15 & Rev 13:17 are not literal & visible for everyone to clearly see.

 

[markalan]

I will gladly read the verses you list that confirms the 'mark' in Gen 4:15 & Rev 13:17 are not literal & visible for everyone to clearly see.

When we read Revelation sequentially, the first three mentions of "foreheads" are -

Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Rev 13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

 

[ewq1938]

Injecting an economic decision into how people are judged by God seems contrary to the Gospel as I understand it.

The bible "injects" it as part of the things done by them:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[markalan]

The bible "injects" it as part of the things done by them:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Well friend, let's pray that we will be able to recognize the beast, his image, and the mark when the time comes ... if it has not already.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Rev 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Rev 13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 9:2-4 - speaks of a supernatural ? type of locust from the pit having the sting ability of scorpions designed to hurt humans who had not the 'seal' of GOD on their foreheads
A nowhere but on the forehead 'seal' that these 'supernatural locusts' were able to 'recognize.'
The Bible does not teach that man was able to 'see' the 'seal' on another, the giveaway would be the attack by the 'locusts'.
....
Rev 13:16-17 - speaks of a 'mark' on the head or hand that allows people to buy & sell with each other
Without this 'mark' how would another 'marked' human know whether or not they were allowed to trade with the other ?
.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Well friend, let's pray that we will be able to recognize the beast, his image, and the mark when the time comes ... if it has not already.

"""if it has not already.""
Do you believe it would matter if it happens before the 2 Thess 2:3 "and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

 

[markalan]

Rev 9:2-4 - speaks of a supernatural ? type of locust from the pit having the sting ability of scorpions designed to hurt humans who had not the 'seal' of GOD on their foreheads
A nowhere but on the forehead 'seal' that these 'supernatural locusts' were able to 'recognize.'
The Bible does not teach that man was able to 'see' the 'seal' on another, the giveaway would be the attack by the 'locusts'.
....
Rev 13:16-17 - speaks of a 'mark' on the head or hand that allows people to buy & sell with each other
Without this 'mark' how would another 'marked' human know whether or not they were allowed to trade with the other ?
.

A lot depends on how one interprets the book of Revelation.
I see it mainly as a book of symbols ... when something is first mentioned as a symbol, I apply that meaning throughout the entire book to maintain consistency.

First mention:
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. (Rev 7:3)

Last mention
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. (Rev 22:4)

 

[PeterAndroz]

A lot depends on how one interprets the book of Revelation.
I see it mainly as a book of symbols ... when something is first mentioned as a symbol, I apply that meaning throughout the entire book to maintain consistency.

First mention:
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. (Rev 7:3)

Last mention
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. (rev 22:4)

Rev 13:16-17 writes of a 'mark' that is required to allow a person to buy & sell - no mark = no buy or sell.
If you can not see the mark then how can you know whether you are allowed to buy & sell with that person ?
Opinion on that question is welcome.

 

[markalan]

Rev 13:16-17 writes of a 'mark' that is required to allow a person to buy & sell - no mark = no buy or sell.
If you can not see the mark then how can you know whether you are allowed to buy & sell with that person ?
Opinion on that question is welcome.

Just to be clear, are you saying that you believe "forehead/s" in Revelation is always literal, or sometimes literal and sometimes symbolic?

I don't know about you, but almost all of the buying and selling I do these days does not involve anyone seeing me.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Just to be clear, are you saying that you believe "forehead/s" in Revelation is always literal, or sometimes literal and sometimes symbolic?

I don't know about you, but almost all of the buying and selling I do these days does not involve anyone seeing me.

I am asking come the MOTB, how will I know whether I am allowed to buy or sell with someone ?

 

[markalan]

I am asking come the MOTB, how will I know whether I am allowed buy or sell with someone ?

I politely asked a question and you ignored me, Peter.

As for your question asked here, I do not know the answer ... I will tell you when it happens ... if we're both still here!

But my speculation is that it will be something like what happens to Christian communities in countries like China and Iran today.