MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[Anchorite]

Ok but many days doesn’t point to long or short period of time, it could be either. Soon points to something close and 2000 years in the future would not be soon.

The word “soon” in the book of Revelation does not necessarily mean close in time.

In the Book of Revelation, the word translated as "soon" or "quickly" comes from the Greek word tachy or tachus. Scholars and readers interpret this word in a few different ways, balancing literal, linguistic, and theological meanings.

Key Interpretations of "Soon" (Tachy)

• • Manner vs. Timing (Suddenness): Some interpreters believe the word describes how an event happens rather than when it happens. In this view, tachy means "suddenly," "rapidly," or "without hesitation" once it begins, rather than meaning it will occur shortly in chronological time.
  • Imminence (At Any Moment): Others hold that it means "without unnecessary delay" from God's perspective. It teaches that Christ’s return is imminent, meaning it could happen at any time, and believers should always stay alert and ready.
  • God's Eternal Perspective: Another common view is that time in heaven is measured differently than human time, where a thousand years are like a day, meaning "soon" transcends human calendars.
  
  It’s important to notice that the primary meaning of this word refers to the speed by which an event approaches rather than the duration of time before it arrives. In fact, this same word is generally translated in terms of speed elsewhere in the New Testament, as shown in the following examples:
  
  • Luke 8 — 8I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
  • Acts 12 — 7And behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter’s side and woke him up, saying, “Get up quickly.” And his chains fell off his hands.
  • Acts 22 — 18and I saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.
  It’s important to notice that the primary meaning of this word refers to the speed by which an event approaches rather than the duration of time before it arrives. In fact, this same word is generally translated in terms of speed elsewhere in the New Testament, as shown in the following examples:
  
  • Luke 8 — 8I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
  • Acts 12 — 7And behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter’s side and woke him up, saying, “Get up quickly.” And his chains fell off his hands.
  • Acts 22 — 18and I saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.
  
  Appropriately, some translations do in fact translate verse 1 using “quickly” instead of “soon“, such as the Young’s Literal Translation (Rev 1:1 YLT), the Holman Christian Standard Bible (Rev 1:1 HCSB), as well as the Berean Literal and Jubilee 2000 translations.

 

[Davidpt]

Ok but many days doesn’t point to long or short period of time, it could be either. Soon points to something close and 2000 years in the future would not be soon.

As far as Revelation is concerned, some things could have soon began happening 2000 years ago. But that doesn't mean everything in the book of Revelation began being fulfilled 2000 years ago. Clearly, for example, Rev 20:10-15 did not soon start getting fulfilled 2000 years ago. Some views don't allow progression. It either has to be all past or all future to them. Rather than some of it can be past and some of it can be future still

In my view, some things in Revelation are reserved for a particular time period. Revelation 13-19 being among those things and is involving the final hours of this age. That doesn't take away from the fact that other things in Revelation may have began taking place 2000 years ago. That's the way I try and reason some of these things, right or wrong.

Because it is absurd to insist that EVERYTHING recorded in Revelation belongs to 2000 years ago when Revelation 20:10-15 alone clearly debunks that theory.

 

[IndianaRob]

The word “soon” in the book of Revelation does not necessarily mean close in time.

In the Book of Revelation, the word translated as "soon" or "quickly" comes from the Greek word tachy or tachus. Scholars and readers interpret this word in a few different ways, balancing literal, linguistic, and theological meanings.

Key Interpretations of "Soon" (Tachy)

• • Manner vs. Timing (Suddenness): Some interpreters believe the word describes how an event happens rather than when it happens. In this view, tachy means "suddenly," "rapidly," or "without hesitation" once it begins, rather than meaning it will occur shortly in chronological time.
  • Imminence (At Any Moment): Others hold that it means "without unnecessary delay" from God's perspective. It teaches that Christ’s return is imminent, meaning it could happen at any time, and believers should always stay alert and ready.
  • God's Eternal Perspective: Another common view is that time in heaven is measured differently than human time, where a thousand years are like a day, meaning "soon" transcends human calendars.
  
  It’s important to notice that the primary meaning of this word refers to the speedby which an event approaches rather than the duration of time before it arrives. In fact, this same word is generally translated in terms of speed elsewhere in the New Testament, as shown in the following examples:
  • Luke 8 — 8I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
  • Acts 12 — 7And behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter’s side and woke him up, saying, “Get up quickly.” And his chains fell off his hands.
  • Acts 22 — 18and I saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.
  It’s important to notice that the primary meaning of this word refers to the speedby which an event approaches rather than the duration of time before it arrives. In fact, this same word is generally translated in terms of speed elsewhere in the New Testament, as shown in the following examples:
  • Luke 8 — 8I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
  • Acts 12 — 7And behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter’s side and woke him up, saying, “Get up quickly.” And his chains fell off his hands.
  • Acts 22 — 18and I saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.
  
  Appropriately, some translations do in fact translate verse 1 using “quickly” instead of “soon“, such as the Young’s Literal Translation (Rev 1:1 YLT), the Holman Christian Standard Bible (Rev 1:1 HCSB), as well as the Berean Literal and Jubilee 2000 translations.

You've done a lot of work on one word, but the argument doesn't only hinge on tachy.

Two verses after the one you're parsing, John uses a different word entirely. Revelation 1:3 — "the time is at hand." That's engys. It means near, close at hand. It's not a word about speed at all, it's a word about nearness. So while I'll agree tachy could be referring to suddenness — a reach, in my opinion — you still have to deal with this one. And John sets it as the frame for the whole book.

 

[Anchorite]

You've done a lot of work on one word, but the argument doesn't only hinge on tachy.

Two verses after the one you're parsing, John uses a different word entirely. Revelation 1:3 — "the time is at hand." That's engys. It means near, close at hand. It's not a word about speed at all, it's a word about nearness. So while I'll agree tachy could be referring to suddenness — a reach, in my opinion — you still have to deal with this one. And John sets it as the frame for the whole book.

The word engys can mean near in time or awareness, close at hand in time or awareness, or ready with all preparations in place.

KJV: from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready
NASB: near, close, nearby, nearer, ready
Word Origin: [from a primary verb agcho "to squeeze or throttle" (akin to the base of G43 (ἀγκάλη - arms))]

1. near
{literally or figuratively, of place or time}

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
at hand, near, nigh, ready.
From a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of agkale); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time) -- from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

Rev. 1:3 “the time is at hand” could mean the time is ready to be fulfilled, but not necessarily all at once back when John was writing.

 

[ewq1938]

You've done a lot of work on one word, but the argument doesn't only hinge on tachy.

Two verses after the one you're parsing, John uses a different word entirely. Revelation 1:3 — "the time is at hand." That's engys. It means near, close at hand.

G1451
ἐγγύς
eggus
eng-goos'
From a primary verb ἄγχω agchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time): - from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.
Total KJV occurrences: 30



Since most of the book of Rev has not yet happened we know it was only figuratively near.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Jesus said in Matthew 6:19-21, “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

The believer does not belong to the system of this world nor do its wares appeal to him. The trading that he engages in and the riches he possesses belong to another realm – a heavenly. The Christians economy is centered in heaven and it is from there that he receives his spiritual provision. Colossians 3:1-2: “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”

Worldly wealth or public standing cannot satisfy the believer nor equal the bountiful blessings that God supplies within the kingdom of heaven. It is spiritual wealth and righteous standing that appeal to him. The Lord speaks of the only wealth that can truly satisfy, when speaking to the disobedient Laodiceans in Revelation 3:18, saying, “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich.”

The Lord makes a strange diagnosis. He instructs the Laodiceans (who were materially rich) to purchase “gold” (yes, gold) in order to be pleasing unto God. Now, even the most hyper-literalist Futurist would concede that no amount of gold assets could in any way improve the spiritual standing of an individual in the eyes of a righteous God. Such language is simply used, in keeping with the whole character of this apocalyptic book, to symbolize the reality that is found in God. Gold speaks of genuineness; Gold speaks of purity. It is a natural fact; God makes gold but man manufactures brass.

• Gold represents the real. Brass represents the imitation.
• Gold represents the genuine. Brass represents the counterfeit.
• Gold represents the true. Brass represents the false.
• Gold represents everything that is right. Brass represents everything that is erroneous.
• Gold represents that which is right, just and holy. Brass represents that which is bogus, fake or sham.

The Laodiceans boasted, “I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing” (v. 17). You see they probably had much material wealth and probably much literal gold, but they lacked the spiritual wealth and heavenly gold that comes alone from God. They were materially rich, but spiritually poor.

John Stott asks in his book ‘What Christ Thinks of the Church’, on the seven churches, “why does he (Christ) recommend the Laodiceans to buy from him? Can salvation be bought? No. Certainly not. It is a free gift to us because it was purchased by Christ on the cross. His invitation to buy from me should not be pressed. He is doubtless using language appropriate to the commercially-minded Laodiceans” (p. 120).

Matthew Henry: “it is nothing of a valuable consideration, it is only to make room for receiving true riches. Part with sin and self-sufficiency, and come to Christ with a sense of your poverty and emptiness, that you may be filled with his hidden treasure.”

Is the MOTB a >>visual<< mark that anyone can see ?

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Here is a verse that says either worship or receive the mark, not necessarily both.

Revelation 14:11

11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Myself, I agree that take the MOTB = LOF but I do wonder why many Bibles in both Rev 14:9 & Rev 14:11 use the word AND & not OR.

 

[Anchorite]

Myself, I agree that take the MOTB = LOF but I do wonder why many Bibles in both Rev 14:9 & Rev 14:11 use the word AND & not OR.

“And” does not necessarily mean two things need to be done. It can mean two types of people.

 

[WPM]

Is the MOTB a >>visual<< mark that anyone can see ?

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

You guys seem incapable of addressing counter-arguments. I always take that as a complement as to the strength of the presented argument. It is watertight.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"foreheads" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and LexiConc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Eze 9:4 mark on foreheads <<<<< Visible
Rev 13:16 mark on foreheads <<< Visible
Rev 20:4 mark on foreheads <<<<Visible
...
Is the mark on their foreheads VISIBLE for others to see with their eyes ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

“And” does not necessarily mean two things need to be done. It can mean two types of people.

Context is what matters
Worship the beast AND take the mark = LOF << both required
Worship the beast OR take the mark = LOF << only one required
Worship the beast AND OR take the mark = LOF << easily understood

 

[PeterAndroz]

You guys seem incapable of addressing counter-arguments. I always take that as a complement as to the strength of the presented argument. It is watertight.

So is the Rev 13:16-17 MOTB visible for everyone to see ?
Complement yourself on answering a simple yes/no question :)

 

[markalan]

Eze 9:4 mark on foreheads <<<<< Visible
Rev 13:16 mark on foreheads <<< Visible
Rev 20:4 mark on foreheads <<<<Visible
...
Is the mark on their foreheads VISIBLE for others to see with their eyes ?

View attachment 88030

Ezekiel 9 is a vision, not a literal action. It applies to the godly and parallels the "seal of God" in Revelation 9:4
(Strange how Ezekiel 9:4 & Rev 9:4 are parallel verses)

So your argument is that only when referring to the MOTB is the word forehead/s literal. At all other times it is symbolic.

If that satisfies you, then there seems little more I can say.

 

[markalan]

So is the Rev 13:16-17 MOTB visible for everyone to see ?
Complement yourself on answering a simple yes/no question :)

Where does the Bible say the "mark" is something you can see visibly?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Ezekiel 9 is a vision, not a literal action. It applies to the godly and parallels the "seal of God" in Revelation 9:4
(Strange how Ezekiel 9:4 & Rev 9:4 are parallel verses)

So your argument is that only when referring to the MOTB is the word forehead/s literal. At all other times it is symbolic.

If that satisfies you, then there seems little more I can say.

Is the Rev 13:16-17 MOTB visible to everyone ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Where does the Bible say the "mark" is something you can see visibly?

Is the Rev 13:16-17 MOTB visible to everyone ?
If you don't know then just say so

 

[markalan]

Is the Rev 13:16-17 MOTB visible to everyone ?
If you don't know then just say so

I know why you think it is visible but the Bible does not say it is visible.

The assumption it is visible because of buying & selling seems rather fatuous in this day of internet purchases.

 

[ewq1938]

Where does the Bible say the "mark" is something you can see visibly?

See or detect. Let's say you refuse the mark, and walk into a store and want to buy something. How can they tell if you do not have the mark?

 

[PeterAndroz]

I know why you think it is visible but the Bible does not say it is visible.

The assumption it is visible because of buying & selling seems rather fatuous in this day of internet purchases.

'mark' > Greek > charagma
..


Rev 13:16

Rev 13:17

Rev 14:9

Rev 14:11

Rev 16:2

Rev 19:20


Rev 20:4

 

[markalan]

'mark' > Greek > charagma
..

View attachment 88034
Rev 13:16
View attachment 88035
Rev 13:17
View attachment 88036
Rev 14:9
View attachment 88037
Rev 14:11
View attachment 88038
Rev 16:2
View attachment 88039
Rev 19:20

View attachment 88040
Rev 20:4
View attachment 88041

Every symbol in Revelation is based on a literal object.

If we read Revelation from the beginning, chapter 1 sets the pattern for interpretation.
For example, lampstands, stars, sword, keys, etc, in the first chapter, are all literal objects with symbolic meanings.

When we begin at the beginning, we can more easily understand the language being used throughout the whole book.