The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Brakelite]

He has written about visiting Christian outreach programs for the homeless. He hasn’t gotten on well with them in the past but that could change. I hope it does.

”Talking to people for God is a great thing, but talking to God for people is even greater.” - E.M. Bounds

We can’t speak with 2bme anymore but we can still pray for him.

Friends and fellow church members of mine minister in Central Melbourne. Mainly giving away food parcels and free literature. There are several different groups doing the same. It isn't an easy work. Australia is a very secular country, very much unlike the United States.

 

[Matthias]

 

[Matthias]

You say that Christians killing fellow Christians is regrettable. I think it is far more than that …

I say to Christians, don’t do things which you’re going to regret.

 

[Matthias]

That wasn’t the gospel of peace that was delivered @Riven. That’s not the teaching of Jesus and the apostles for the followers of Jesus in action. That’s not what the Great Commission looks like.

 

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “Following” feed this afternoon -

“Man Born Without Arms or Legs Condemns Abortion: ‘All Life Has Value’”

LifeNews.com (@LifeNewsHQ) on X

Man Born Without Arms or Legs Condemns Abortion: “All Life Has Value” https://t.co/kZD2PSJ4wc

x.com

Well said. (And one of the reasons why the earliest Christians didn’t join the military or kill their enemies.)

If the man interviewed in the article was active on this forum, I would ask him: What was the value of the lives - Christian and non-Christian, combatant and non-combatant, US citizens and non-US citizens, men, women, and children - at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

 

[Matthias]

This wasn’t done by people who were following the teaching of Jesus. This was done by people who weren’t.

 

[Riven]

View attachment 88083

This wasn’t done by people who were following the teaching of Jesus. This was done by people who weren’t.

The alternative would have been a million dead Americans, and that's a conservative estimate. Christian or not, when you're in a leadership position, very few choices are simple.

What exactly do you think should have been done after Pearl Harbor? Nothing? I'm sure such a strategy would have confused the Japanese, but otherwise would have been very ineffective. There would be no D-Day, no saving those in the concentration camps, and Hitler would have conquered all of Europe.

Sometimes pacifism is the right course of action. When Jesus walked the earth, he like all the other Jews, were dealing with a Roman occupation that they couldn't challenge. They had no army to drive the Romans out. Turning the other cheek and praying for your enemy is a logical conclusion to come to under those conditions.

 

[Matthias]

The alternative ….

There is no alternative for followers of Jesus. “We do not use the weapons of the world.” - Paul

Jesus and the apostles did not do to their enemies what was done to that woman.

What exactly do you think should have been done after Pearl Harbor? Nothing? …

Nero should have been done. (And was.)

Sometimes pacifism is the right course of action. When Jesus walked the earth, he like all the other Jews, were dealing with a Roman occupation that they couldn't challenge.

The Jews challenged the Roman occupation. (The followers of Jesus, following his teaching, stayed out of it.) See the Jewish Wars and the destruction of the Temple.

They had no army to drive the Romans out.

Have you read Josephus? He was a General in the Jewish army (District of Galilee) defected to the Roman side, and wrote about it while residing in the comforts of Rome.

Turning the other cheek and praying for your enemy is a logical conclusion you come to under those conditions.

In all conditions.

 

[RLT63]

There is no alternative for followers of Jesus. “We do not use the weapons of the world.” - Paul

Jesus and the apostles did not do to their enemies what was done to that woman.



Nero should have been done. (And was.)



The Jews challenged the Roman occupation. (The followers of Jesus, following his teaching, stayed out of it.) See the Jewish Wars and the destruction of the Temple.

View attachment 88084



Have you read Josephus? He was a General in the Jewish army (District of Galilee) defected to the Roman side, and wrote about it while residing in the comforts of Rome.



In all conditions.

Most people will never be faced with a situation where they have to choose to take someone's life.
I have several times. I chose not to (which could have been to my peril) but it worked out.
One night a man had a flashlight and something in his other hand and he had them gripped the way you hold a gun and a flashlight but I chose to wait him out.
He was holding a bar of soap.
One man put his hand in his coat pocket and pointed it at me, I grabbed his hand and he had nothing (but a heck of a fight ensued)
A teenager pointed a gun at me and I drew down on him, he turned around and ran into his house.
On more than one occasion having a dog made all the difference.
One man put his hand in his coat, spun around to face me but before he could draw the gun he saw my dog coming, I drew down on him and he surrendered.
I'm glad I never had to take a life

 

[Matthias]

Most people will never be faced with a situation where they have to choose to take someone's life.

Jesus and the apostles never chose to take someone’s life. The early church leaders taught the followers of Jesus not to take the life of others.

I have several times. I chose not to (which could have been to my peril) but it worked out.
One night a man had a flashlight and something in his other hand and he had them gripped the way you hold a gun and a flashlight but I chose to wait him out.
He was holding a bar of soap.
One man put his hand in his coat pocket and pointed it at me, I grabbed his hand and he had nothing (but a heck of a fight ensued)
A teenager pointed a gun at me and I drew down on him, he turned around and ran into his house.
On more than one occasion having a dog made all the difference.
One man put his hand in his coat, spun around to face me but before he could draw the gun he saw my dog coming, I drew down on him and he surrendered.
I'm glad I never had to take a life

I’m glad you didn’t take a life.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven It’s the 1st century. Pagan Roman Empire vs. Jews who rejected Jesus and God.

The followers of Jesus were there. They didn’t kill anyone.

Through the magic of the WABAC machine, you’re there. Who are you killing?

 

[Riven]

@Riven It’s the 1st century. Pagan Roman Empire vs. Jews who rejected Jesus and God.

The followers of Jesus were there. They didn’t kill anyone.

Through the magic of the WABAC machine, you’re there. Who are you killing?

I want you to answer my question first. Was it wrong for Christian men severing in the army to kill in order to stop Hitler in Europe? If so, what do you believe they should have done instead?

 

[Matthias]

I want you to answer my question first.

I already have, but I’ll do it again.

Was it wrong for Christian men severing in the army to kill in order to stop Hitler in Europe?

Yes.

If so, what do you believe they should have done instead?

They shouldn’t have been in the army in the first place. They should have done what Jesus and the apostles instructed the followers of Jesus to do -> love their enemy.

Now, 1st century Pagans vs. Unbelieving Jews. Both sides are enemies of Jesus and God.

Who are you killing?

 

[RLT63]

I already have, but I’ll do it again.



Yes.



They shouldn’t have been in the army in the first place. They should have done what Jesus and the apostles instructed the followers of Jesus to do -> love their enemy.

Now, 1st century Pagans vs. Unbelieving Jews. Both sides are enemies of Jesus and God.

Who are you killing?

By your logic Christians can't serve in the military or law enforcement.
I worked with a JW police officer who asked if he could not carry a firearm. The department wouldn't allow that. Ironically he was the best shot in the department

 

[Matthias]

By your logic Christians can't serve in the military or law enforcement.

It’s not my logic. I’m drawing on the teaching and practice of Jesus, the apostles, and the church for the first three centuries of Christian history.

“We do not use the weapons of the world” isn’t compatible with serving in the military or law enforcement. The military and law enforcement have to use the weapons of the world to maintain order.

I worked with a JW police officer who asked if he could not carry a firearm. The department wouldn't allow that. Ironically he was the best shot in the department

 

[Riven]

They shouldn’t have been in the army in the first place. They should have done what Jesus and the apostles instructed the followers of Jesus to do -> love their enemy.

Which would have ended with a Nazi victory in Europe and a very uncertain future for the rest of the world. Not to mention the complete liquidation of the Jewish race in Europe.

Now, 1st century Pagans vs. Unbelieving Jews. Both sides are enemies of Jesus and God.

Who are you killing?

I wouldn't go out of my way to kill anyone unless they tried to kill me.

 

[RLT63]

It’s not my logic. I’m drawing on the teaching and practice of Jesus, the apostles, and the church for the first three centuries of Christian history.

“We do not use the weapons of the world” isn’t compatible with serving in the military or law enforcement. The military and law enforcement have to use the weapons of the world to maintain order.

Paul writes that governing authorities are “God’s servants” who “do not bear the sword in vain” but act as “an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:1–4). This has long been understood to include the state’s use of coercive force for justice, order, and defense—roles filled by law enforcement and the military. Peter similarly urges submission to human authorities “who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13–14). These texts distinguish private retaliation (forbidden) from authorized public force.
John the Baptist, preparing the way for Jesus, told soldiers who asked what they should do: “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay” (Luke 3:14)—practical ethical guidance within their occupation rather than a call to abandon it.

 

[Matthias]

Which would have ended with a Nazi victory in Europe and a very uncertain future for the rest of the world. Not to mention the complete liquidation of the Jewish race in Europe.

You don’t believe that God could prevent that from happening if Christians had obeyed the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. I do.

I wouldn't go out of my way to kill anyone unless they tried to kill me.

Both sides would have tried to kill you. The Christians removed themselves from the area.

 

[marks]

Paul writes that governing authorities are “God’s servants” who “do not bear the sword in vain” but act as “an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:1–4). This has long been understood to include the state’s use of coercive force for justice, order, and defense—roles filled by law enforcement and the military. Peter similarly urges submission to human authorities “who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13–14). These texts distinguish private retaliation (forbidden) from authorized public force.

I'm surprised there aren't more people on this thread making this connection. There is a sanctioned violence that applies to anyone who qualifies.

If the governor is a servant of God, then how can we say "no servants of God should hold that position"?

When asked directly by the soldiers, John didn't tell them to put down their weapons and become pacifist.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Paul writes that governing authorities are “God’s servants” who “do not bear the sword in vain” but act as “an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:1–4). This has long been understood to include the state’s use of coercive force for justice, order, and defense—roles filled by law enforcement and the military.

That’s right.

Peter similarly urges submission to human authorities “who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13–14). These texts distinguish private retaliation (forbidden) from authorized public force.

The apostles are in agreement.

John the Baptist, preparing the way for Jesus, told soldiers who asked what they should do: “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay” (Luke 3:14)—practical ethical guidance within their occupation rather than a call to abandon it.

That’s also right.