MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

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Marty fox

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There are a number of Amils posting in this thread. Name which Amil or Amils that agree with you about this. Would like to hear their reasoning as to why they would agree despite that Rev 20:7 makes it crystal clear that the thousand years expire once they have served their purpose. Then what follows is not the GWTJ but is satan's little season. The thousand years, then satan's little season, then the GWTJ. And not---the thousand years, then the GWTJ, like you would have us believe.

The thousand years, then satan's little season, then the GWTJ---none of these run in parallel with one another.

I don't base my view on what other amils think, I base my view on what the bible says, but as to if other amils agree with me or not, I have no idea maybe some do and some don't.

Does Jesus reign because satan is bound or does Jesus reign because He is God?

Let's put it another way, is satan bound because Jesus reigns over him?

Revelation chapter 20 shows a reigning and a binding not a reigning because of a binding.

Does Jesus still reign after satan is released? or does Jesus stop reigning because satan is released?

Can satan stop Jesus from reigning?

Think about that and answer each one.
 
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rwb

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In Daniel 7 He does not come in power and glory. He is given power and glory only after He has arrived first. It is in Matthew 24:30 that He comes in power and glory. Therefore, Daniel 7 involves a bodily ascension. Matthew 24:30 involves a bodily return. Not even remotely the same era of time in both passages.
Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Daniel 7:13-15 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

The Son of man is not here depicted as coming from heaven to earth but coming from the earth to heaven after He arose from the grave, just as described in the book of Acts. He already received power and glory, being given a dominion and a Kingdom that is everlasting and shall never pass away, nor be destroyed. Christ was given the Kingdom of God because He was faithful unto death, giving His life a ransom for many.
 

Scott Downey

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Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Daniel 7:13-15 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

The Son of man is not here depicted as coming from heaven to earth but coming from the earth to heaven after He arose from the grave, just as described in the book of Acts. He already received power and glory, being given a dominion and a Kingdom that is everlasting and shall never pass away, nor be destroyed. Christ was given the Kingdom of God because He was faithful unto death, giving His life a ransom for many.

Even though the kingdom was His 'birthright'. HE earned it by His works, He was obedient to God the Father unto His own death.
Titus 2:13
looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,


5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,

7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

8 And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross.

9 Therefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in Heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
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ewq1938

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Because as Revelation chapter 20 shows the thousand-year binding ends when satan is released and the thousand-year reign ends at the end of our world on the GWTJ day. There are two separate thousand years one the reigning and one the binding,

No, Rev 20 speaks of one thousand year period where satan is bopund and there is a reign over the nations (who were not killed in Rev 19 because they were not targeted)


Jesus doesn't reign because satan is bound Jesus reigns because He is God.

Strawman fallacy since no one thinks Jesus only reigns because satan is bound. The two things simply happen at the same time.
 

rwb

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Even though the kingdom was His 'birthright'. HE earned it by His works.
Titus 2:13
looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,


5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,

7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

8 And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross.

9 Therefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in Heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Exactly, I agree! Being faithful unto death, after His resurrection He ascended to heaven where He received a Kingdom that shall never end nor be destroyed. The Kingdom He was given when He ascended to heaven is not physical but the spiritual Kingdom of God that every man who has been, is and shall be born again spiritually enter when we/they are born again.
 

Davidpt

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Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Daniel 7:13-15 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

The Son of man is not here depicted as coming from heaven to earth but coming from the earth to heaven after He arose from the grave, just as described in the book of Acts. He already received power and glory, being given a dominion and a Kingdom that is everlasting and shall never pass away, nor be destroyed. Christ was given the Kingdom of God because He was faithful unto death, giving His life a ransom for many.

Are you echoing what I already agree with and said? Or are you somehow having a dispute with what I said? I clearly said Daniel 7:13-15 involves a bodily ascension. Which then means this scenario---Christ is intially bodily on the earth, then is seen bodily leaving the earth in Acts 1, and then is seen bodily entering heaven in Daniel 7:13-15. But in Matthew 24:30, it is the exact opposite. It has Him bodily coming in power and great glory to the earth below after having bodily left heaven above. So where did He initially receive this power and great glory? For one, Daniel 7:13-15, in light of Acts 1, explains the where, when, and how.
 

Marty fox

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No, Rev 20 speaks of one thousand year period where satan is bopund and there is a reign over the nations (who were not killed in Rev 19 because they were not targeted)




Strawman fallacy since no one thinks Jesus only reigns because satan is bound. The two things simply happen at the same time.

Then if no one thinks that Jesus only reigns because satan is bound then everyone must agree that Jesus still reigns after satan is released.
 

Davidpt

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Then if no one thinks that Jesus only reigns because satan is bound then everyone must agree that Jesus still reigns after satan is released.

No one is arguing that Christ quits reigning when Satan is released. Christ's reign is not the issue.

The question is whether the saints continue to reign with Christ in the same sense throughout satan's little season.

If Revelation 20:4-6 means that the saints reign with Christ for a thousand years, then once those thousand years are completed, that particular period of the saints reigning with Christ has necessarily come to an end. That doesn't mean Christ ceases to reign---it means that the thousand year reign described in Revelation 20 has reached its completion.

That's why I think the Amil position would actually need to address something more specific than--Jesus still reigns after satan is released. Of course He does. The question is---what happens to the saints who are alive at the end of the millennium when satan is released?

If we were to construct a scenario where people are being saved during the latter part of the millennium and some of those people are still physically alive when satan's little season begins, then there would have to be some kind of transition. They would no longer be living under the conditions of the thousand year reign. satan would be released, the nations would once again be deceived, and the final period of testing would begin.

In that hypothetical scenario, perhaps the Amil position would provide a better framework---but only if it can explain how those who are alive during the final days of the millennium are subsequently tested during satan's little season.

One possibility would be that Satan's little season corresponds in some way to the great apostasy/falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I'm not saying that's necessarily the Amil interpretation. I'm simply saying that, if Amillennialism is correct, I'd expect it to provide a coherent explanation for how these pieces fit together.

That's ultimately my concern with the typical presentation of Amillennialism. Saying, Christ continues to reign after satan is released doesn't really resolve the issue, because I never argued that Christ stops reigning.

The question is whether the Biblical distinction between the thousand year reign, the release of satan, and the final testing/deception of the nations can be accounted for coherently.

As a Premil, I think Revelation 20 naturally gives us a chronological sequence:

satan is bound.
The saints reign with Christ for a thousand years.
The thousand years are completed.
satan is released for a little season.
satan deceives the nations.
The final rebellion occurs.
satan is finally judged.

So the burden isn't to prove that Christ stops reigning after the thousand years. The burden is to explain what changes when the thousand years end and satan is released.
 

Marty fox

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No one is arguing that Christ quits reigning when Satan is released. Christ's reign is not the issue.

The question is whether the saints continue to reign with Christ in the same sense throughout satan's little season.

If Revelation 20:4-6 means that the saints reign with Christ for a thousand years, then once those thousand years are completed, that particular period of the saints reigning with Christ has necessarily come to an end. That doesn't mean Christ ceases to reign---it means that the thousand year reign described in Revelation 20 has reached its completion.

That's why I think the Amil position would actually need to address something more specific than--Jesus still reigns after satan is released. Of course He does. The question is---what happens to the saints who are alive at the end of the millennium when satan is released?

If we were to construct a scenario where people are being saved during the latter part of the millennium and some of those people are still physically alive when satan's little season begins, then there would have to be some kind of transition. They would no longer be living under the conditions of the thousand year reign. satan would be released, the nations would once again be deceived, and the final period of testing would begin.

In that hypothetical scenario, perhaps the Amil position would provide a better framework---but only if it can explain how those who are alive during the final days of the millennium are subsequently tested during satan's little season.

One possibility would be that Satan's little season corresponds in some way to the great apostasy/falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I'm not saying that's necessarily the Amil interpretation. I'm simply saying that, if Amillennialism is correct, I'd expect it to provide a coherent explanation for how these pieces fit together.

That's ultimately my concern with the typical presentation of Amillennialism. Saying, Christ continues to reign after satan is released doesn't really resolve the issue, because I never argued that Christ stops reigning.

The question is whether the Biblical distinction between the thousand year reign, the release of satan, and the final testing/deception of the nations can be accounted for coherently.

As a Premil, I think Revelation 20 naturally gives us a chronological sequence:

satan is bound.
The saints reign with Christ for a thousand years.
The thousand years are completed.
satan is released for a little season.
satan deceives the nations.
The final rebellion occurs.
satan is finally judged.

So the burden isn't to prove that Christ stops reigning after the thousand years. The burden is to explain what changes when the thousand years end and satan is released.

God doesn't test us He refines us. Why would we stop reigning if Jesus doesn't stop reigning?

Just because we die for Christ after the binding doesn't mean that we stop reigning.

The binding ends in verse 7
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

The reigning ends at the end of our world in verse 5 tells us this
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead come to life at the GWTJ in verses 11-15 after satin's release and final defeat

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 

rwb

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I clearly said Daniel 7:13-15 involves a bodily ascension.

Yes, Christ was seen ascending bodily up to heaven, which is the same manner in which He shall return again when the last/seventh trumpet sounds. But the Kingdom Christ received when He ascended up into heaven is NOT the physical Kingdom that shall come to the new earth when Christ comes again on the last day of this age. The Kingdom Christ received when He ascended up is the spiritual Kingdom of God that cannot be known or entered until man is born again.
But in Matthew 24:30, it is the exact opposite. It has Him bodily coming in power and great glory to the earth below after having bodily left heaven above. So where did He initially receive this power and great glory? For one, Daniel 7:13-15, in light of Acts 1, explains the where, when, and how.

When Christ comes again after time shall be no longer, He will physically come again with the Kingdom of God that shall then be physically upon the new earth. Now, in this age of time, Christ has ALL dominion and glory and power over His SPIRITUAL Kingdom! He received this power, glory and dominion from the Father being faithful unto death He gave His physical life to make atonement for sin for all who believe on Him.