MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[Scott Downey]

Scott, please refrain from belittling others in what you are contesting until you have verification from the LORD.

EXAMPLE: You are contesting & judging the clear words of CHRIST and the LITERAL First Resurrection and the LITERAL 1,000 years that GOD has already Validated in Genesis and then again in Revelation.

Genesis and Revelation are the Authority on the 1,000 Years = no one else!!!

This is why the LORD is very SERIOUS when HE says = Revelation 22:18

IMPORTANT: i am not accusing you but reminding ALL of us of Proverbs 30:5-6 and Rev 22:18 = GOOD for us to walk in

You and others, just don't believe what is written...
Challenge yourself, you vs scripture. You lose, and God wins.
You think you have it figured out, but that is self deception, cause we don't figure things out, we only know by God revealing truth, so why is my truth different from yours, well, obviously your confident assertions are your weakness.

I clearly pointed out many times what the scriptures say, yet people refuse to hear. God's Spirit must give people ears to hear.

 

[Scott Downey]

Cultic understandings always are based on single or just a few picked out verses...

 

[Scott Downey]

The below is good solid clear doctrine of what happens at the return of Christ
The unbelieving and wicked are destroyed, do you know what everlasting destruction means?

How does these truths below line up with what you claim about the 1000 year reign?
Challenge your own self, examine yourself as to what you think, and see if it agrees with what God's Spirit through Paul says here.

2 Thess 1
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[rwb]

To everyone here, revelation chapter 20 talks about the thousand year binding of satan in verses 1-3. No mention of saints reigning in these verses.

Then the text talks about the thousand year reigning of the saints in verses 4-6. No mention of the binding of satan in these verses.

Both the time (a thousand years) of binding of Satan and those who have lived and reigned with Christ (a thousand years) pertains to the same period of time given this earth whereby man must be saved to inherit everlasting life through Christ. How can this not be speaking of the same period of time symbolically written a/the thousand years since both are of the past? The full chapter gives no indication there will be two separate periods of time symbolized or literal for a/the thousand years.

 

[David in NJ]

You and others, just don't believe what is written...

LOL

Challenge yourself, you vs scripture. You lose, and God wins.

Currently i am with GOD who Says: "they LIVED AGAIN/Resurrection and ruled and reigned with Christ for 1,000 Years"

God wins and you choose the opposite(loosing) pov

"You think you have it figured out, but that is self deception" = Amil error

your confident assertions are your weakness.

Genesis, Gospel, Proverbs 30:5-6 , Matthew 4:4 , Revelation 1:1-3 & Revelation 22:18-19 is where my STRENGTH comes from.

I clearly pointed out many times what the scriptures say, yet people refuse to hear

i have not been reading ALL of your posts = please reply with your post #s that "clearly point out"

 

[David in NJ]

Off to work now

 

[rwb]

Currently i am with GOD who Says: "they LIVED AGAIN/Resurrection and ruled and reigned with Christ for 1,000 Years"

Take care in the translation(s) you rely on. You'll find modern translations often bring their bias into the Bible. None of the below, before Westcott & Hort say "lived AGAIN". They tell us that even after death these faithful saints "lived and reigned with Christ." Not that they had to be made alive AGAIN, but they continued even after physical death to be living souls. Adding "again" to the text, shows bias for those who, like you, believe when faithful saints physically die they cannot be alive with Christ forever as He has promised until they are made to live again. This is a denial of spiritual eternal life through the Spirit of Christ in us that NEVER ends.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (ASV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (Bish) And I sawe thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was geuen vnto them: and I sawe the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and whiche had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their handes: and they lyued and raigned with Christe a thousand yeres.

Revelation 20:4 (DBY) And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

Revelation 20:4 (KJ2000) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV16) And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them: & I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

Revelation 20:4 (Tyn) And I sawe seattes and they sat apon them and iudgement was geven vnto them: and I sawe the soules of them that were behedded for the witnes of Iesu and for the worde of God: which had not worshypped the best nether his ymage nether had taken his marke vpon their forheddes or on their hondes: and they lyved and raygned with Christ a .M. yere:

Revelation 20:4 (WEB) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (YLT) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

 

[rebuilder 454]

They are deceived and due to that refuse to repent and give God glory

The deception here is strong, God gave them over. Meaning they can not escape what is happening, as only God can grant repentance.
God sends them strong delusion to believe the lie. God has locked them into the coming judgment.

Even so, today a lot of people refuse God, and the love of the truth, Jesus tells us that in John 3.

2 Thess 2
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

All unbelievers are deceived.
They come into the light and are no longer deceived.
The unbeliever opens up and Jesus comes in.
Light chases out darkness.
I can't be in the light any other way.
The deceived do not know they are deceived.

The remedy is not more verses.
It is CHRIST HIMSELF, EVEN IF THERE IS NO BIBLE FOR 1000 MILES.

You saying a person with 50 devil tattoos can not be saved due to your many verses?

 

[IndianaRob]

Daniel is NOT writing of the resurrection of the dead that is coming when ALL (both good and bad) shall be bodily resurrected either to life or condemnation. These words from Daniel are pointing to what shall come to pass during this time likened here to "a time of trouble" and "great tribulation" Christ warns His disciples shall come as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed and the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven completed. (see Mt 27:52)

Daniel doesn't say those who have died will be resurrected physically from the grave. He writes only that many who lived and died in faith before Christ came to earth a man would be awakened (spiritually), and they were. They are the living souls (spirits of just men) that Christ took with Him when He ascended to heaven. These are not yet bodily resurrected. That shall come on the last day when the last/seventh trumpet sounds. They were awakened by the sealing of the Holy Spirit (Rev 7), who had not yet been sent to make spiritually alive all who believe.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The many that have died before the advent of Christ come to earth a man did awake to everlasting life just as Daniel writes.

Daniel 12:1 (KJV) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

At the beginning of the time of trouble/great tribulation with the first advent of Christ coming to make atonement for sin and defeat death, the faithful saints of Old were spiritually awakened from the dead to everlasting life. The some that Daniel speaks of shall also be awakened and bodily resurrected in an hour coming to shame and everlasting contempt as they are bodily called to stand before the great white throne judgment of God to give account of their lives according to all that is found written in the books and the book of life.

Daniel is writing of the resurrection of the dead where ALL (both good and bad) shall be bodily resurrected either to life or condemnation.

The process is laid out in Paul’s seed analogy. A seed is plated in the ground. The seed has a body that contains a dormant life. When conditions are right and water is applied to the seed, that life activates.

Once the life activates, the seed body begins to die and rot, releasing the life into the new plant.

The seed body stays in the ground and returns to dust. The old seed body does not transform into the new plant, it rots in the ground and stays there permanently while the life that was in that seed body moves into the new plant.

That is the resurrection.

 

[Marty fox]

Neither Jesus nor any New Testament writer in the gospels or epistles ever taught of a literal thousand years.

 

[IndianaRob]

I’m

Cultic understandings always are based on single or just a few picked out verses...

That’s the truth. When everything meshes with all related verses and there are no contradictions , then you know you have it right.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Neither Jesus nor any New Testament writer in the gospels or epistles ever taught of a literal thousand years.

That's like saying the bible never taught there were 12 literal disciples.

Maybe 12 is just a spiritual number and really does no mean 12 literal disciples.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I’m

That’s the truth. When everything meshes with all related verses and there are no contradictions , then you know you have it right.

Except every single one in here, with strange beliefs, MESHES LOTS OF VERSES TOGETHER, and comes up with their "solid" doctrine.

It is only a few that go to heaven, and get the correct understanding.
Those mentalists have lots of verses.
Then connect the dots that seem so proper to their own minds....and miss the target completely.

 

[IndianaRob]

Except every single one in here, with strange beliefs, MESHES LOTS OF VERSES TOGETHER, and comes up with their "solid" doctrine.

It is only a few that go to heaven, and get the correct understanding.
Those mentalists have lots of verses.
Then connect the dots that seem so proper to their own minds....and miss the target completely.

When I say mesh, I mean the verses aren’t bent and twisted to it fit. Sort like putting a thousand piece puzzle together and putting all the puzzle pieces where they fit without using an exacto knife to make them fit.

I do agree with what you’re saying.

 

[David in NJ]

Neither Jesus nor any New Testament writer in the gospels or epistles ever taught of a literal thousand years.

Is Jesus the Word that was God and became flesh???

 

[Scott Downey]

All unbelievers are deceived.
They come into the light and are no longer deceived.
The unbeliever opens up and Jesus comes in.
Light chases out darkness.
I can't be in the light any other way.
The deceived do not know they are deceived.

The remedy is not more verses.
It is CHRIST HIMSELF, EVEN IF THERE IS NO BIBLE FOR 1000 MILES.

You saying a person with 50 devil tattoos can not be saved due to your many verses?

You don't read verses with any comprehension, when God gives someone over, there will be no repentance, as it must be granted by God for a person to repent and escape the devil's snare.

2 Timothy 2
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, [h]sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 12
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

16 lest there be any fornicator or [f]profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

ESAU was not granted repentance, and God hated Esau. If you read what he did, and how he treated his parents, and so on, even from an outward appearance Esau was an unlovely wild man, not loved by God... But it goes much deeper still, as God's blessing was through Isaac, not Esau. Esau is burning in the fire, while Jesus said God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[rwb]

Daniel is writing of the resurrection of the dead where ALL (both good and bad) shall be bodily resurrected either to life or condemnation.

If Daniel had been referring to the resurrection of the physically dead in the hour that is coming, he would have written many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be resurrected, not "shall awake". Because it is the mortal/corruptible body that shall be RESURRECTED from the dust of the earth to which faithful saints shall return immortal and incorruptible after physical death.

Every place in the Bible where we read of resurrection, it always speaks of dead mortal bodies raised to physical life. Resurrection is never referred to as bodies that have returned to dust of the earth as being made awake or awakened. Because when one returns to life after physical death it is ALWAYS referred to as being resurrected.

To be made awake or awakened is used when referring to the spiritual condition of man, or literally physically sleeping at night. It is not of those who physically awake from the dust of the earth which is reference to being physically/mortally dead and buried.

The accounting of Lazarus being resurrected to mortal/physical life again is the only example in Scripture where Christ speaks of going to awake him from sleep. But even in this passage Christ says plainly "Lazarus is dead." Telling us this that we would know that He alone has power over life and death.

Man is awakened or made awake SPIRITUALLY before we physically die through the gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. Scripture makes a distinction between man being awakened from spiritual death to spiritual life in this age and the bodily resurrection of the physically dead after this age comes to an end. We see this when we read the words of Paul when saying to the spiritually dead "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" Spiritually we have gone from being dead in trespasses and sins to being spiritually alive with Christ, not physically resurrected, but spiritually quickened/awakened spiritually.

 

[IndianaRob]

If Daniel had been referring to the resurrection of the physically dead in the hour that is coming, he would have written many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be resurrected, not "shall awake". Because it is the mortal/corruptible body that shall be RESURRECTED from the dust of the earth to which faithful saints shall return immortal and incorruptible after physical death.

Every place in the Bible where we read of resurrection, it always speaks of dead mortal bodies raised to physical life. Resurrection is never referred to as bodies that have returned to dust of the earth as being made awake or awakened. Because when one returns to life after physical death it is ALWAYS referred to as being resurrected.

To be made awake or awakened is used when referring to the spiritual condition of man, or literally physically sleeping at night. It is not of those who physically awake from the dust of the earth which is reference to being physically/mortally dead and buried.

The accounting of Lazarus being resurrected to mortal/physical life again is the only example in Scripture where Christ speaks of going to awake him from sleep. But even in this passage Christ says plainly "Lazarus is dead." Telling us this that we would know that He alone has power over life and death.

Man is awakened or made awake SPIRITUALLY before we physically die through the gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. Scripture makes a distinction between man being awakened from spiritual death to spiritual life in this age and the bodily resurrection of the physically dead after this age comes to an end. We see this when we read the words of Paul when saying to the spiritually dead "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" Spiritually we have gone from being dead in trespasses and sins to being spiritually alive with Christ, not physically resurrected, but spiritually quickened/awakened spiritually.

Daniel is telling us that the resurrection will happen at a time when MANY of them that slept in the dust would awake <—- them rising was not the resurrection, them rising gave the clue to know when the resurrection would start.

There’s only one other place in the Bible where many bodies of the saints that sleep arose.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

 

[Scott Downey]

Daniel is telling us that the resurrection will happen at a time when MANY of them that slept in the dust would awake <—- them rising was not the resurrection, them rising gave the clue to know when the resurrection would start.

There’s only one other place in the Bible where many bodies of the saints that sleep arose.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

That is a strange verse, while they came to life again, scripture does not tell us what happens to to them. They could have been taken up with Christ at His accession. Feels cruel to push them back into the grave.

Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Matthew 27, they walked into the city, these saints of the OT
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Jesus remains on earth with His people 40 days after His resurrection, He would have talked with them and showed them these people raised up. What a witness to the power of the resurrection that was to all the people. Sending them back to the grave as He ascends, seems like not what happened. Some have suggested the cloud contained both angels and people...