Who are these guys?

[CTK]

In the Tanakh and the New Testament, we find at least three major figures or powers specifically described as opposing God, His people, His Church, His appointed times, and His law. Daniel identifies the Little Horn. Paul describes the Lawless One. John speaks of the Antichrist.

The important question is whether these are three entirely different enemies appearing at different times, or whether they are three descriptions of the same developing power viewed from different perspectives.

If they are the same, then Daniel, Paul, and John are not giving us separate prophecies about unrelated individuals. They are each revealing another part of the same picture—its origin, character, development, activity, and eventual judgment.

That leads to the next question: When does this power arise, and where should we look for it / them in history?

 

[ewq1938]

I think they are intended to be the same person. There's also the man of sin, that Wicked, and the false prophet...again, the same person. All prophecies of the very end of the end times speak of one person ruling the world with other no singular sidekick etc.

 

[CTK]

I think they are intended to be the same person. There's also the man of sin, that Wicked, and the false prophet...again, the same person. All prophecies of the very end of the end times speak of one person ruling the world with other no singular sidekick etc.

Well, we agree they refer to one figure, with the exception of the false prophet. He is definitely a separate figure than the little horn / antichrist / lawless one. But I would ask you to offer your thoughts on why you believe this one comes only at the end of time. If we were to look at the first mention of this fellow (little horn / antichrist / lawless one) he would be found in Daniel 7 and 8. And within these two chapters God has indeed given us a mountain of information about him. There is no shortage of identifiers in these two chapters... have you had an opportunity to determine who the little horn is from these chapters? He definitely comes out of the 4th kingdom of Rome. And if you look at Daniel 7:11, Rome was slain, meaning the little horn had to come out and be visible before that event took place in 476 AD. Look forward to your thoughts.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, we agree they refer to one figure, with the exception of the false prophet. He is definitely a separate figure than the little horn / antichrist / lawless one. But I would ask you to offer your thoughts on why you believe this one comes only at the end of time.

Becuse that's the context of the passages speaking of this person.

If we were to look at the first mention of this fellow (little horn / antichrist / lawless one) he would be found in Daniel 7 and 8. And within these two chapters God has indeed given us a mountain of information about him. There is no shortage of identifiers in these two chapters... have you had an opportunity to determine who the little horn is from these chapters? He definitely comes out of the 4th kingdom of Rome.

The context is a kingdom led by the little horn that is all defeated and destroyed by a coming of God and an eternal kingdom and a throne judgment. That's Daniels version of the endtimes and second coming. It can't be Rome because the timeframe of the kingdom being destroyed does not match history or Rome's fall nor the little horn being a person in history.

And if you look at Daniel 7:11, Rome was slain, meaning the little horn had to come out and be visible before that event took place in 476 AD. Look forward to your thoughts.

Just read how the kingdom is destroyed in Rev 7 and about the coming of God etc. There is no match. Even the first 3 kingdom survive past the 4th's destruction and that does not match Rome and any 3 earlier kingdoms.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In the Tanakh and the New Testament, we find at least three major figures or powers specifically described as opposing God, His people, His Church, His appointed times, and His law. Daniel identifies the Little Horn. Paul describes the Lawless One. John speaks of the Antichrist.

The important question is whether these are three entirely different enemies appearing at different times, or whether they are three descriptions of the same developing power viewed from different perspectives.

If they are the same, then Daniel, Paul, and John are not giving us separate prophecies about unrelated individuals. They are each revealing another part of the same picture—its origin, character, development, activity, and eventual judgment.

That leads to the next question: When does this power arise, and where should we look for it / them in history?

In my opinion, and it is pretty well grounded, is that all 3 persons, the Antichrist (1 John), the Man of Sin (2 Thes 2), and the Beast (Rev 13) originate from the "Little Horn" presented in Dan 7. Dan 7 is such an important prophecy! I believe most all of NT eschatology depends upon it in a number of ways.

The Son of Man, often referred to in the NT Scriptures and in the book of Revelation, in particular, comes from Dan 7. The coming of the Kingdom, also clearly presented in the book of Revelation, originates from Dan 7, where the Son of Man appears from heaven to initiate God's Kingdom. And as I said, the Antichrist comes from this passage wherein Christ and his Kingdom is preceded by one who seeks to establish his own kingdom--hence, the "Antichrist," or the "Man of Sin."

 

[CTK]

Becuse that's the context of the passages speaking of this person.





The context is a kingdom led by the little horn that is all defeated and destroyed by a coming of God and an eternal kingdom and a throne judgment. That's Daniels version of the endtimes and second coming. It can't be Rome because the timeframe of the kingdom being destroyed does not match history or Rome's fall nor the little horn being a person in history.





Just red how the kingdom is destroyed in Rev 7 and about the coming of God etc. There is no match. EVen the first 3 kingdom survive past the 4th's destruction and that does not match Rome and any 3 earlier kingdoms.

Thanks for your reply. I agree with you in your last statement - "there is no match." And since you have searched our history books to find a match for these 10 horns as well as the 3 horns, you assume just as EVERY OTHER commentator / interpreter that has studied Daniel, that they must be end time events.

I would suggest that you and everyone attempting to interpret Daniel throw away your history books. God did not write Daniel so we could look back and compare His prophecies to the coming history. He specifically identified 4 and only 4 kingdoms in chapter 2 and they would house all of the prophecies, actors and events. The 4 kingdoms are His formal structure where He places His plan of restoration and salvation for His people, His city and mankind. It is not a history book.

So, I understand why you would not accept Rome as the 4th beast or that the little horn comes out of the 4th beast BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD (Daniel 7:11), you are viewing / interpreting Daniel as all others. But the 10 horns and the 3 horns are not kingdoms or nations that you feel you need to identify as such before you can idenfity the little horn... etc.. So, I would respectfully ask that you might return to Daniel 2 and unpack 2:34 and then 2:41-45.

 

[CTK]

In my opinion, and it is pretty well grounded, is that all 3 persons, the Antichrist (1 John), the Man of Sin (2 Thes 2), and the Beast (Rev 13) originate from the "Little Horn" presented in Dan 7. Dan 7 is such an important prophecy! I believe most all of NT eschatology depends upon it in a number of ways.

The Son of Man, often referred to in the NT Scriptures and in the book of Revelation, in particular, comes from Dan 7. The coming of the Kingdom, also clearly presented in the book of Revelation, originates from Dan 7, where the Son of Man appears from heaven to initiate God's Kingdom. And as I said, the Antichrist comes from this passage wherein Christ and his Kingdom is preceded by one who seeks to establish his own kingdom--hence, the "Antichrist," or the "Man of Sin."

Yes, I agree with you completely. Now, perhaps we might discuss when the little horn (first mention) found in Daniel 7 and 8 arrives and maybe even come to use those verses to identify him?

 

[ewq1938]

So, I understand why you would not accept Rome as the 4th beast or that the little horn comes out of the 4th beast BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD (Daniel 7:11), you are viewing / interpreting Daniel as all others.

You failed to address the things I brought up that prove Daniel 7 hasn't happened yet. Addressing them is the natural next step in this discussion not avoiding them.

 

[CTK]

You failed to address the things I brought up that prove Daniel 7 hasn't happened yet. Addressing them is the natural next step in this discussion not avoiding them.

Well to be candid, you didn't prove anything. You gave your opinions but they were not in any way supported by Daniel 7 or 8. Just some theories about end times with no specifics. So, here is a copy of my earlier response below....You can find these in Daniel 7. Just those few words should tell you these are not end time events.

So, I understand why you would not accept Rome as the 4th beast or that the little horn comes out of the 4th beast BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD (Daniel 7:11), you are viewing / interpreting Daniel as all others.

 

[ewq1938]

Well to be candid, you didn't prove anything.

Then counter the points made. Continuing to ignore the points made means you cannot provide an argument against them.

You gave your opinions but they were not in any way supported by Daniel 7 or 8. Just some theories about end times with no specifics.

lol, no, there were specifics like the 4th kingdom being destroyed by a coming of God and an eternal kingdom received by the saints. How is that no specifics? You flat out avoided all of the evidence and specifics and weakly claimed none were provided.

So, here is a copy of my earlier response below....You can find these in Daniel 7. Just those few words should tell you these are not end time events.

So, I understand why you would not accept Rome as the 4th beast or that the little horn comes out of the 4th beast BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD (Daniel 7:11), you are viewing / interpreting Daniel as all others.

The SPECIFICS in the chp prove Rome wasn't being spoken about.

 

[CTK]

Then counter the points made. Continuing to ignore the points made means you cannot provide an argument against them.





lol, no, there were specifics like the 4th kingdom being destroyed by a coming of God and an eternal kingdom received by the saints. How is that no specifics? You flat out avoided all of the evidence and specifics and weakly claimed none were provided.





The SPECIFICS in the chp prove Rome wasn't being spoken about.

Ok and thanks. I think we are not on the same page... and that is okay.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, I agree with you completely. Now, perhaps we might discuss when the little horn (first mention) found in Daniel 7 and 8 arrives and maybe even come to use those verses to identify him?

There is an inordinate interest in trying to anticipate prophetic fulfillment. For that reason Jesus said to his Apostles that they are not to focus on anticipating "times and seasons," but to instead, focus on current ministry needs.

That being said, there is nothing wrong speculating or trying to anticipate events as we see them develop. We are warned about the future Antichrist because he is a pattern of Christian experience all through the NT age.

There are already many antichrists that we need to prepare to deal with, in the same way the Church is to prepare to face the ultimate Antichrist at the end of the age. For example, the Islamic Religion is a type of historic Antichrist that Christians have had to face in the past. There have been a number of others, clearly identified by Christians as "antichrists." Communism is a very current Antichrist that the Church needs to face courageously.

We are told who the ultimate Antichrist will be because he comes at the end of the culture of the "4th King" of Dan 2 and 7, which I believe to be the culture of Imperial Rome. All through NT history we've seen the dominance of this Imperial Roman culture, which of course is centered in Europe, where Rome exists. There have been not just the Roman Empire but a number of branches off of this "Roman Trunk," whether in Western Europe or Eastern Europe.

We have had, for example, the Holy Roman Empire in the West, while in the East we've had everything from the Byzantine to the Russian Empire. So, the old Roman Empire has lasted far beyond the fall of the city of Rome in 476 AD.

Dan 7 indicates that as long as the old Roman Kingdom exists, the ultimate Antichrist cannot yet come-this, I believe, to be the "Restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thes 2. And this is how most of the early Church Fathers interpreted the "Restrainer" to be. The old Roman government restrained the coming of the Antichrist who will make use of a divided Europe to reimpose old pagan rule.

So we've seen this passing of the old Roman Empire into a divided Europe which Dan 7 indicates will ultimately come together to consist of a union of 10 European kingdoms, headed by Antichrist. As we see this evolve we will know we're looking at the ultimate Antichrist at the end of the age.

It will be a revival of the old Pagan Roman Empire, which should be particularly concerning to Christians who are already witnessing the collapse of Christian Civilization in Europe and elsewhere. We need to harden our Christian resolve to face this prospect, which is what I believe the book of Revelation was written to encourage. We need to learn to be faithful in difficult times.

 

[CTK]

There is an inordinate interest in trying to anticipate prophetic fulfillment. For that reason Jesus said to his Apostles that they are not to focus on anticipating "times and seasons," but to instead, focus on current ministry needs.

That being said, there is nothing wrong speculating or trying to anticipate events as we see them develop. We are warned about the future Antichrist because he is a pattern of Christian experience all through the NT age.

There are already many antichrists that we need to prepare to deal with, in the same way the Church is to prepare to face the ultimate Antichrist at the end of the age. For example, the Islamic Religion is a type of historic Antichrist that Christians have had to face in the past. There have been a number of others, clearly identified by Christians as "antichrists." Communism is a very current Antichrist that the Church needs to face courageously.

We are told who the ultimate Antichrist will be because he comes at the end of the culture of the "4th King" of Dan 2 and 7, which I believe to be the culture of Imperial Rome. All through NT history we've seen the dominance of this Imperial Roman culture, which of course is centered in Europe, where Rome exists. There have been not just the Roman Empire but a number of branches off of this "Roman Trunk," whether in Western Europe or Eastern Europe.

We have had, for example, the Holy Roman Empire in the West, while in the East we've had everything from the Byzantine to the Russian Empire. So, the old Roman Empire has lasted far beyond the fall of the city of Rome in 476 AD.

Dan 7 indicates that as long as the old Roman Kingdom exists, the ultimate Antichrist cannot yet come-this, I believe, to be the "Restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thes 2. And this is how most of the early Church Fathers interpreted the "Restrainer" to be. The old Roman government restrained the coming of the Antichrist who will make use of a divided Europe to reimpose old pagan rule.

So we've seen this passing of the old Roman Empire into a divided Europe which Dan 7 indicates will ultimately come together to consist of a union of 10 European kingdoms, headed by Antichrist. As we see this evolve we will know we're looking at the ultimate Antichrist at the end of the age.

It will be a revival of the old Pagan Roman Empire, which should be particularly concerning to Christians who are already witnessing the collapse of Christian Civilization in Europe and elsewhere. We need to harden our Christian resolve to face this prospect, which is what I believe the book of Revelation was written to encourage. We need to learn to be faithful in difficult times.

Wow! That is amazing. If you do not mind, I would like to attach a pdf for your consideration. Please let me know if you were able to access it. It is a long narrative discussing this issue in my Daniel commentary. Certainly, you do not have to read it but I hope you might given your understanding of Daniel. Thanks.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Wow! That is amazing. If you do not mind, I would like to attach a pdf for your consideration. Please let me know if you were able to access it. It is a long narrative discussing this issue in my Daniel commentary. Certainly, you do not have to read it but I hope you might given your understanding of Daniel. Thanks.

Yea, there are a number of points in common, but I'm only about a quarter of the way through--I'll try to finish tomorrow.

We both agree the Restrainer is the ancient Roman government, as the Church Fathers largely believed.

We both agree that the Antichristian Apostasy begins within Christian society, and I feel, within former Christian countries.

And finally, we both agree that the Temple Antichrist will situate himself in is not the physical Temple, which Jesus said would be destroyed in his generation. Rather, it had to have been the Temple in heaven, or the Church on earth, where Antichrist will base his power.

It will not be atheistic but religious, centering on the cult of Antichrist himself, in my view.

Atheism is largely associated with Communism which itself was an Apostasy from Christianity in former Christian territory, namely Russia. And we see Socialism and Communism now advancing in Europe and in America, representing the Apostasy that I believe will lead up to the final manifestation of Antichrist.

"Iron" represents the Roman Imperial tradition. And "clay" represents, I think, Socialism or Communism. Both elements are in the feet of Nebuchadnezzar's Image in Dan 2.

We'll talk later, after I've read the rest of your document.

 

[Brakelite]

The important question is whether these are three entirely different enemies appearing at different times, or whether they are three descriptions of the same developing power viewed from different perspectives.

I vote this one.

 

[CTK]

I vote this one.

What does that mean?

 

[Marty fox]

In the Tanakh and the New Testament, we find at least three major figures or powers specifically described as opposing God, His people, His Church, His appointed times, and His law. Daniel identifies the Little Horn. Paul describes the Lawless One. John speaks of the Antichrist.

The important question is whether these are three entirely different enemies appearing at different times, or whether they are three descriptions of the same developing power viewed from different perspectives.

If they are the same, then Daniel, Paul, and John are not giving us separate prophecies about unrelated individuals. They are each revealing another part of the same picture—its origin, character, development, activity, and eventual judgment.

That leads to the next question: When does this power arise, and where should we look for it / them in history?

The little horn-a demonic being influencing Antiochus Ephanies

The lawless one-a demonic being influencing Rome mainly Nero

The antichrist-a demonic being influencing apostate Israel in the century