Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[covenantee]

The restrainer is the Spirit of God.

Why didn't Paul say so?

The reason is evident.
Paul was not referring to the Spirit of God, about Whom he would have had no reason to be secretive.
He was referring to the Roman government, about whom he had every reason to be secretive.
The early Church understood this.
The Reformation Church understood this.
Why doesn't the contemporary Church understand it?

 

[ewq1938]

Don't mix up the judgments...
Believers do not come under judgment, they are not subject to the second death. Yes all believers are judged, bit their is not judgment of life or death for them as they all have passed from death into life....
All unbelievers abide in death

Believers are judged, and they are judged to life. You said believers escape judgment but that is incorrect. All humans are judged, some to reward and some to punishment.

 

[CrowCross]

The Jews and the church. Jews saved by law and grace, the church saved by grace, and then in the “great tribulation” Jews again just because they’re Jews.

So, you're saying the jews are going to flop back into their old dispensation during the tribulation?

 

[PeterAndroz]

There’s only one gospel Peter believe God and it’s counted as righteousness. This existed before David with Abraham, through the entire Old Testament and exists today.

"""There’s only one gospel Peter believe God and it’s counted as righteousness""

Was King David eternally saved & HS sealed by ONLY trusting in the death, burial & resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of his sins ?
If YES , list the OT verses

 

[IndianaRob]

So, you're saying the jews are going to flop back into their old dispensation during the tribulation?

What old dispensation? A person or a people are either unsaved and under the law or saved and under grace.

 

[IndianaRob]

"""There’s only one gospel Peter believe God and it’s counted as righteousness""

Was King David eternally saved & HS sealed by ONLY trusting in the death, burial & resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of his sins ?
If YES , list the OT verses

Read the Psalms, it’s full of David writing about Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

What old dispensation? A person or a people are either unsaved and under the law or saved and under grace.

Let me get this straight....there are none, zero dispensations in the bible?

 

[IndianaRob]

Let me get this straight....there are none, zero dispensations in the bible?

There's only one and it's called salvation by grace through faith. That covers from Adam to present time and will be true in the future. There are two religions in the whole world - "do" and "done". The law is "do" and grace is "done".

The only true religion in the world is biblical Christianity, and as far as I know, all other religions are on par with the law, meaning all other religions are based on something you have to do to reach God, or enlightenment or heaven or whatever the other religion might consider "the ultimate goal".

 

[CrowCross]

There's only one and it's called salvation by grace through faith. That covers from Adam to present time and will be true in the future. There are two religions in the whole world - "do" and "done". The law is "do" and grace is "done".

The only true religion in the world is biblical Christianity, and as far as I know, all other religions are on par with the law, meaning all other religions are based on something you have to do to reach God, or enlightenment or heaven or whatever the other religion might consider "the ultimate goal".

Hey, if you say there were no dispensations...then I guess there were no dispensations.
These are all made up
Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, and Kingdom.

 

[IndianaRob]

Hey, if you say there were no dispensations...then I guess there were no dispensations.
These are all made up
Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, and Kingdom.

Could you explain what the dispensation of innocence is?

 

[CrowCross]

Could you explain what the dispensation of innocence is?

I'll have to look for a more detailed answer...but it's from creation to the fall. You can verify that if you would like to do the research.

 

[IndianaRob]

I'll have to look for a more detailed answer...but it's from creation to the fall. You can verify that if you would like to do the research.

That would be these verses?

1 Peter 3:19-20
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

[William Barton]

I think the restrainer could be Archangel Michael, whose job from God in scripture is to contend with Satan.

Jude 9
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

1. Daniel 10:13
   But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Daniel 10:21
   But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Daniel 12:1
   

   Prophecy of the End Time​

   “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

IMO:
Satan is a cherub, Michael would not be capable of restraining him. That would be like me against Hercules.

 

[covenantee]

I think the restrainer could be Archangel Michael

Why speculate, when the ECFs and Reformers have identified it?

 

[CrowCross]

That would be these verses?

1 Peter 3:19-20
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Gen 6 angels....sons of God.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Read the Psalms, it’s full of David writing about Christ.

I'm asking a simple YES or NO question
Was King David saved, sealed & justified by the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel taught to Paul Gal 1:11-12 by Christ ?

 

[IndianaRob]

I'm asking a simple YES or NO question
Was King David saved, sealed & justified by the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel taught to Paul Gal 1:11-12 by Christ ?

Yes. And I'll let Paul give the details.

Romans 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Paul picks Abraham and David as his two examples of justification by faith apart from works. He isn't saying David had a different arrangement. He's using David to prove that righteousness has always been imputed the same way — on the basis of faith, not works.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Yes. And I'll let Paul give the details.

Romans 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Paul picks Abraham and David as his two examples of justification by faith apart from works. He isn't saying David had a different arrangement. He's using David to prove that righteousness has always been imputed the same way — on the basis of faith, not works.

Based on 1 Cor 15:1-4
Confirming that King David knew, believed & trusted that :-
- Christ died for his sins
- Christ was buried for his sins
- Christ rose 3 days later
By believing & trusting ALL the above KD was then Eph 1:13 sealed & knew he could never lose the HS

Please list the OT verses that teach King David knew that

Rom 4:6-8 does not teach that

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[Scott Downey]

Why speculate, when the ECFs and Reformers have identified it?

Several things might fit this 'restrainer' in people's minds. And how was that evil 4th kingdom a restrainer of evil, when it was an evil beast itself. Good restrains evil. Jesus said if evil is divided against itself it can not stand. Spiritual powers of wickedness dont restrain each other.

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 7 - New King James Version

Vision of the Four Beasts - In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts. Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring...

www.biblegateway.com

7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words.

Vision of the Ancient of Days​

9 “I watched till thrones were [d]put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The [e]court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

 

[Scott Downey]

IMO:
Satan is a cherub, Michael would not be capable of restraining him. That would be like me against Hercules.

He actually does defeat Satan, and he also rebukes Satan by the Lord God's power
Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 12 - New King James Version

The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon - Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold...

www.biblegateway.com

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”