MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[WPM]

Something I learned in 1st grade.
Reading.

Did you not check it out to see if it was in Rev 20?

 

[JimKnox]

Apparently, you did not have a very good teacher!

Explain how the millennium can be a literal time that is coming since those John sees in Rev 20 had lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before being martyred for their faith. John makes no mention of them being made to live again no matter how many modern translations say otherwise.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What makes you think they are reigning in the MK BEFORE being martyred?

 

[Davidpt]

Apparently, you did not have a very good teacher!

Explain how the millennium can be a literal time that is coming since those John sees in Rev 20 had lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before being martyred for their faith. John makes no mention of them being made to live again no matter how many modern translations say otherwise.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And you did have good teachers???

You seriously still need to deal with the Daniel 7 mess you created before you can tell anyone one way or the other anything in regard to the thousand years. Your interpretation of Daniel 7 does not agree with the texts if you insist that Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4-6 then have us believe that this means Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago when Daniel 7:21 couldn't possibly be involving an era of time that began prior to 2000 years ago and then came to a full end when the until in verse 22 was allegedly fufilled 2000 years ago. Except verse 22 the context is not the first coming, it's the 2nd coming.

In light of Daniel 7:9-12 and verse 21, prove from the text that the context of verse 22 is the first coming not the 2nd coming, since that is the only way you can be correct that Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago. Prove these things from Daniel 7 alone. I don't care about any of your other arguments in this case. I want you to prove from the text in Daniel 7 alone that the context of verse 22 is not the 2nd coming but is the first coming. You simply can't ignore Daniel 7:9-12, 21 in order to do so. That won't cut it. After all, he who alleges must prove. And that it is absurd that that means everyone but you.

 

[rwb]

What makes you think they are reigning in the MK BEFORE being martyred?

Because the text tells us they "have lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." They were faithful to the end. Being faithful unto God during their lifetime is the reason they were martyred. How will they have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years unless a thousand years symbolizes time in which they lived before being martyred for their faithfulness unto God?

 

[JimKnox]

Did you not check it out to see if it was in Rev 20?

After reading your posts here, it is apparent that you think anyone who does not agree with you is daft.
The literal Millenial Kingdom of Christ is spoken of from Gen to Rev.
Did you miss it in Sunday School?

 

[rwb]

And you did have good teachers???

You seriously still need to deal with the Daniel 7 mess you created before you can tell anyone one way or the other anything in regard to the thousand years. Your interpretation of Daniel 7 does not agree with the texts if you insist that Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4-6 then have us believe that this means Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago when Daniel 7:21 couldn't possibly be involving an era of time that began prior to 2000 years ago and then came to a full end when the until in verse 22 was allegedly fufilled 2000 years ago. Except verse 22 the context is not the first coming, it's the 2nd coming.

In light of Daniel 7:9-12 and verse 21, prove from the text that the context of verse 22 is the first coming not the 2nd coming, since that is the only way you can be correct that Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago. Prove these things from Daniel 7 alone. I don't care about any of your other arguments in this case. I want you to prove from the text in Daniel 7 itself that the context of verse 22 is not the 2nd coming but is the first coming. You simply can't ignore Daniel 7:9-12, 21 in order to do so. That won't cut it.

David, you repeatedly show that your purpose for posting in these forums is not to have biblical truth, but rather your goal has always been to disprove Amil doctrine. I could give an answer to every question you raise, but it would be an exercise in futility! Because you have always and I'm sure will continue to bring in other passages and verses without responding to the errors exposed in what you believe.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus says the hour NOW IS, right then, when dead people are hearing his voice and coming to life.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jesus says marvel not at this (living dead people coming to life) and goes to further explain the “raising of the dead” by saying the same thing is about to happen to those that are in the grave.
When Jesus said “the hour” is coming, he is talking about the ninth where he “cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

The complete resurrection is laid out in simple easy to understand terms in John 5:25-29. Everything a person needs to know about the resurrection is right there.

dead here and live now is...


Yes, right here in Ephesians 2, believers have passed from death into life.


And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And this too, Christ is seated at God's right hand until...., THEN He returns.
AND THIS TOO, the LAST ENEMY HE DESTROYS is DEATH!
So there He will remain there until death is destroyed
Clues, Important Clues right here!

1 Corinthians 15
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.


Acts 2
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”


UNDERSTAND that all those who preach an earthly millennial 1000 years reign, they all say people still are born and die....so death yet undefeated.
BUT it does not fit what the scripture really tells us, cause Christ remains seated at God's right hand until death is no more.

Colossians 3
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

John 5

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son​

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

 

[WPM]

After reading your posts here, it is apparent that you think anyone who does not agree with you is daft.
The literal Millenial Kingdom of Christ is spoken of from Gen to Rev.
Did you miss it in Sunday School?

No. I was taught the truth in Sunday school. :)

Where in Revelation 20 does it show Christ as king ruling from Jerusalem over the entire earth? It seems like (by your avoidance) you know it is not there.

 

[JimKnox]

Because the text tells us they "have lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." They were faithful to the end. Being faithful unto God during their lifetime is the reason they were martyred. How will they have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years unless a thousand years symbolizes time in which they lived before being martyred for their faithfulness unto God?

Because it is prophecy.
"Things which must come to pass".
By the time John wrote this book, Christ had already ascended and people had been entering His Church for approx. 60 years already. But His literal kingdom had not manifested yet. "Master, will you at this time RESTORE the Kingdom TO Israel "? If it was 'spiritual' as you falsely claim, there would be no need to "restore" it. But Jesus said....you go wait for the Holy Ghost. (Paraphrased)
You are misreading the text.
God calls "things which are not as if they are". This is the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, not the letter of John.
In order for your view to be correct, Rev 20:14 must be also spiritual. It is illogical. The 2nd death has not happened.

 

[WPM]

And you did have good teachers???

You seriously still need to deal with the Daniel 7 mess you created before you can tell anyone one way or the other anything in regard to the thousand years. Your interpretation of Daniel 7 does not agree with the texts if you insist that Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4-6 then have us believe that this means Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago when Daniel 7:21 couldn't possibly be involving an era of time that began prior to 2000 years ago and then came to a full end when the until in verse 22 was allegedly fufilled 2000 years ago. Except verse 22 the context is not the first coming, it's the 2nd coming.

In light of Daniel 7:9-12 and verse 21, prove from the text that the context of verse 22 is the first coming not the 2nd coming, since that is the only way you can be correct that Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago. Prove these things from Daniel 7 alone. I don't care about any of your other arguments in this case. I want you to prove from the text in Daniel 7 alone that the context of verse 22 is not the 2nd coming but is the first coming. You simply can't ignore Daniel 7:9-12, 21 in order to do so. That won't cut it. After all, he who alleges must prove. And that it is absurd that that means everyone but you.

Daniel 7:13-14 says, “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

When most people read this reference to the Son of man coming with clouds they immediately assume that it relates to the second coming of the Lord. However, if they would carefully examine the wording of the passage and particularly the import of the reading, they would find that it makes absolutely no mention to Christ coming to earth in the clouds, but rather, it is speaking of Christ rising into the presence of His Father – the Ancient of Days – to receive His reward. The narrative expressly says, “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” This glorious event occurred after the cross when He triumphantly entered into the portals of heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of majesty on high.

Premillennialists commonly apply this reading to the second coming, however, a close study of this reading shows that it relates specifically to the Lord’s ascension. The question that emanates from here is: where, in this vision, does the son of man (Christ) go? Is it to the earth or is it to His Father? Of course the passage answers this for us; “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” The Son of Man is shown here not to be coming from the Ancient of Days, but rather going to Him in the clouds. Christ is coming to the Father. For what purpose? Christ ascended in the clouds to the Father to receive His coronation. He came to be given dominion, glory and a kingdom. Christ is therefore not coming from heaven to earth in this passage, but coming from earth to heaven.

Daniel 7:9-10 sees the glorious all-consummating appearance of Christ which ushers in the general judgment in which ‘the books were opened’, saying, “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

This is simply a time reminder regarding how it all ends up. It is a parenthetical insert reminding the listener/reader that despite the wickedness, power and influence of worldly kingdoms throughout time, they eventually will come to an end. But, importantly, God’s kingdom reigns sovereignly over them all and will do so forever. We are reminded that there is a day when all kings and kingdoms will bow before the Lord in submission.

Like Matthew 24, and countless passages in Scripture, there are many passages that speak about both the First Advent and the Second Advent in the same reading. There are also countless parallels, interjections, inserts, recaps in Scripture pertaining to the second coming in Scripture. Amils see this as one of them, pertaining to the climactic return of Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Daniel 7:13-14 says, “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

When most people read this reference to the Son of man coming with clouds they immediately assume that it relates to the second coming of the Lord. However, if they would carefully examine the wording of the passage and particularly the import of the reading, they would find that it makes absolutely no mention to Christ coming to earth in the clouds, but rather, it is speaking of Christ rising into the presence of His Father – the Ancient of Days – to receive His reward. The narrative expressly says, “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” This glorious event occurred after the cross when He triumphantly entered into the portals of heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of majesty on high.

Premillennialists commonly apply this reading to the second coming, however, a close study of this reading shows that it relates specifically to the Lord’s ascension. The question that emanates from here is: where, in this vision, does the son of man (Christ) go? Is it to the earth or is it to His Father? Of course the passage answers this for us; “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” The Son of Man is shown here not to be coming from the Ancient of Days, but rather going to Him in the clouds. Christ is coming to the Father. For what purpose? Christ ascended in the clouds to the Father to receive His coronation. He came to be given dominion, glory and a kingdom. Christ is therefore not coming from heaven to earth in this passage, but coming from earth to heaven.

Daniel 7:9-10 sees the glorious all-consummating appearance of Christ which ushers in the general judgment in which ‘the books were opened’, saying, “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

This is simply a time reminder regarding how it all ends up. It is a parenthetical insert reminding the listener/reader that despite the wickedness, power and influence of worldly kingdoms throughout time, they eventually will come to an end. But, importantly, God’s kingdom reigns sovereignly over them all and will do so forever. We are reminded that there is a day when all kings and kingdoms will bow before the Lord in submission.

Like Matthew 24, and countless passages in Scripture, there are many passages that speak about both the First Advent and the Second Advent in the same reading. There are also countless parallels, interjections, inserts, recaps in Scripture pertaining to the second coming in Scripture. Amils see this as one of them, pertaining to the climactic return of Christ.

Just as Ephesians 4 says here, explains Christ is with the Father now in the highest heavens and fills all things, He is in charge, and this is the Father's will.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

 

[WPM]

And you did have good teachers???

You seriously still need to deal with the Daniel 7 mess you created before you can tell anyone one way or the other anything in regard to the thousand years. Your interpretation of Daniel 7 does not agree with the texts if you insist that Daniel 7:22 = Revelation 20:4-6 then have us believe that this means Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago when Daniel 7:21 couldn't possibly be involving an era of time that began prior to 2000 years ago and then came to a full end when the until in verse 22 was allegedly fufilled 2000 years ago. Except verse 22 the context is not the first coming, it's the 2nd coming.

In light of Daniel 7:9-12 and verse 21, prove from the text that the context of verse 22 is the first coming not the 2nd coming, since that is the only way you can be correct that Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago. Prove these things from Daniel 7 alone. I don't care about any of your other arguments in this case. I want you to prove from the text in Daniel 7 alone that the context of verse 22 is not the 2nd coming but is the first coming. You simply can't ignore Daniel 7:9-12, 21 in order to do so. That won't cut it. After all, he who alleges must prove. And that it is absurd that that means everyone but you.

The Old Testament prophets often described events pertaining to the 1st and second advents in the same vision because they were looking ahead in time through a narrow telescope. They saw 2 mountains in the distance relating to the 2 advents but didn’t necessarily see the gap in-between them nor the great valley of time in-between the mountains. That is not strange in anyway. After all, mountains look much different from a distance than they do up close.

Those same mountains look completely different when you are standing in between them. You definitely get a better perspective of the geography of the whole thing.

As the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report puts it: “certain prophetic texts are best interpreted according to what has commonly been called the shortened perspective. Events in the near and the distant future are often telescoped into one picture, like mountain peaks when seen from a distance. Sometimes the prophets focus on the immediate future and at other times on the distant future; however, both are seen at the same time” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

 

[JimKnox]

No. I was taught the truth in Sunday school. :)

Where in Revelation 20 does it show Christ as king ruling from Jerusalem over the entire earth? It seems like (by your avoidance) you know it is not there.

Go reread Acts ch 1.
You might learn that the Millenial Kingdom of Christ is NOT spiritual.
The Apostles and disciples were not looking for some invisible, ethereal, intangible, mystical Kingdom.
They were (and we are) looking for the literal, visible, physical reign of Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Father fills all things, and Christ also now fills all things

Jeremiah 23:24
Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?” says the Lord; “Do I not fill heaven and earth?” says the Lord.

Ephesians 1
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 4:10
He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Luke 21
31 [a]On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, “Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.”

32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be [b]perfected.’ 33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.

 

[Davidpt]

David, you repeatedly show that your purpose for posting in these forums is not to have biblical truth, but rather your goal has always been to disprove Amil doctrine. I could give an answer to every question you raise, but it would be an exercise in futility! Because you have always and I'm sure will continue to bring in other passages and verses without responding to the errors exposed in what you believe.

And you have room to talk in this case? That your goal is not to have biblical truth, but rather your goal has always been to disprove Premil doctrine. Sounds like to me you are doing that big 'A' word---Avoiding--meaning in regard to what I'm arguing per Daniel 7.

My reading of the texts in Daniel 7 vs your reading of the same texts does not lead me to believe that you are correct that Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago. In Daniel 7 verse 21 is fulfilled first. Then when the Ancient of days comes, the beast is then given to the burning flame at that time, verse 11.

It is absurd that verse 11 is meaning 2000 years ago rather than future still. Surely, even you agree verse 11 is future still. Therefore, you can't have verse 22 meaning in the past, 2000 years ago, then have verse 11 meaning 2000 years later when the until recorded in verse 22 pertains to verse 11 at that time. Thus, It is not until the little horn is given to the burning flame that the saints then possess the kingdom.

Your interpretation has them possessing the kingdom before the little horn is even given to the burning flame first. Your interpretation of verse 22 contradicts verse 27 below.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The text doesn't say some dominions will obey Him and some won't. It clearly says 'all'(kole)

kole
(Aramaic) corresponding to 'kol' (3605):--all, any, + (forasmuch) as, + be-(for this) cause, every, + no (manner, -ne), + there (where)-fore, + though, what (where, who)-soever, (the) whole.



Obviously then, this is meaning after verse 11 and 12 are fulfilled first. Because, before they are fulfilled, no one meant in verse 11-12 fit this yet---and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Not to mention---clearly, this--And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High--is meaning the time has come that the saints possessed the kingdom, which you equate with the beginning of your proposed millennium 2k years ago. Except 2K years ago this part was not yet true---and all dominions shall serve and obey him

The little horn is a dominion, the rest of the beasts per verse 12 are a dominion. Were any of them already serving and obeying him 2k years ago?

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Obviously, once this is fulfilled they have no choice but to serve and obey Him. Which is what they do via the millennium via being ruled with a rod of iron. Not via your millennium, via Premil's millennium. And the reason why their dominion is taken away is because the 7th trumpet has sounded at this point, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. But let's not interpret Scripture with Scripture. God forbid we do that.

In regard to the rest of the beasts meant in verse 12, we can't ignore--- yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time--when that initially happens is at the 7th trumpet. If Revelation 20:11-15 immediately follows the 7th trumpet, then how does one explain--yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time? That requires that there is a period of time reserved after the 7th trumpet but before Revelation 20:11-15, in order to fulfill---yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time


I'm trying to have a biblical discussion here since I'm dealing with the texts involved but you are not. Having a biblical discussion = dealing with the texts involved, and not---not dealing with the texts involved.

But hey, at least you have your cheering section supporting you. Therefore, you can't be wrong about any of this.

 

[Davidpt]

David, you repeatedly show that your purpose for posting in these forums is not to have biblical truth, but rather your goal has always been to disprove Amil doctrine. I could give an answer to every question you raise, but it would be an exercise in futility! Because you have always and I'm sure will continue to bring in other passages and verses without responding to the errors exposed in what you believe.

In regard to post #855 I had Chatgpt reframe for me what I inintially submitted in that post. In order to make it clearer and try and keep the personal jabs out of it or at least keep them to a minimum. Below is post #855 yet again, but this time using Chatgpt as a tool in order to make it even clearer what all I'm meaning in post #855.

---------------


I understand your concern, but I think your characterization of my purpose misses what I am actually doing. I am not avoiding biblical truth in favor of disproving Amillennialism. I am trying to test both interpretations against the actual sequence of events presented in the texts.

And, respectfully, the same criticism could be turned around: if my goal were simply to disprove Amillennialism, that would be no different in principle from making it one's goal to disprove Premillennialism. The issue should therefore be: **Which interpretation best accounts for the biblical texts and the sequence they give us?**

That is why I keep coming back to Daniel 7.

My reading of Daniel 7 does not lead me to believe that Revelation 20:4–6 began approximately 2,000 years ago.

Look at the sequence Daniel gives us.

Daniel 7:21 says:

> "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them."

Then Daniel says in verse 22:

> "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

Notice the **"until."** The saints' possessing the kingdom is presented in connection with the coming of the Ancient of Days and the judgment against the persecuting power.

Then look at verses 11–12:

> "I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame."

And:

> "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

This creates a serious chronological problem for the Amillennial interpretation.

If verse 11 is still future—as I think we would both agree that it is—then how can verse 22 be placed 2,000 years in the past when verse 22 says the saints possess the kingdom **"until"** the Ancient of Days comes and judgment is given, while the destruction of the beast in verse 11 occurs at that same eschatological intervention?

In other words, I don't see how we can place the saints' possession of the kingdom in the past while placing the beast's destruction in the future when Daniel presents these events as belonging to the same climactic sequence.

And Daniel 7:27 makes the problem even more apparent:

> "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

The statement is comprehensive: **"all dominions shall serve and obey him."**

The Aramaic *kol* has the normal sense of "all," "every," or "the whole." So I don't think we can simply redefine this as though only some of the world's dominions are brought under the rule of the saints.

That raises a very straightforward question:

**Were all the dominions serving and obeying Christ approximately 2,000 years ago?**

If not, then why should Daniel 7:27 be understood as describing the beginning of the millennium at Christ's first coming?

The little horn itself is one of the dominions in view, and Daniel 7:12 specifically says that the other beasts had their dominion taken away, while their lives were prolonged "for a season and time."

That statement is important because Daniel does not merely say that their dominion disappears and everything immediately ends. Their **lives continue for a period of time** after their dominion is removed.

That fits very naturally with the Premillennial understanding of Revelation 19–20: Christ's kingdom is established, the hostile powers are deprived of their dominion, yet there remains a subsequent period during which Christ reigns and those nations remain in existence under His rule.

This also seems to correspond remarkably well with Revelation 11:15:

> "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The seventh trumpet provides a very obvious biblical parallel to Daniel 7's declaration that dominion is taken away and the kingdom is given to the saints.

So I'm not bringing these passages up to avoid answering your position. **These passages are precisely the reason I reject the interpretation that Revelation 20:4–6 began 2,000 years ago.**

There is another chronological difficulty as well.

Daniel 7:12 says that after the beasts have their dominion taken away, **their lives are prolonged for a season and time.**

If the seventh trumpet corresponds to the point at which the kingdoms of the world become Christ's kingdoms, and if Revelation 20:11–15 follows immediately with the final judgment before the great white throne, then where is the period represented by Daniel's:

> "yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time"?

Daniel appears to require an intervening period between the removal of their dominion and their ultimate end.

That is exactly the sort of period that Premillennialism identifies with the thousand-year reign of Revelation 20.

So my argument isn't simply, "I don't like Amillennialism."

My argument is:

1. **Daniel 7:21** — the little horn persecutes the saints.
2. **Daniel 7:22** — the Ancient of Days comes, judgment is given, and the saints possess the kingdom.
3. **Daniel 7:11** — the beast is then destroyed and given to the burning flame.
4. **Daniel 7:12** — the other beasts lose their dominion, but their lives continue for a season and time.
5. **Daniel 7:27** — the kingdom under the whole heaven is given to the saints, and **all dominions serve and obey** the Most High.
6. **Revelation 11:15** — the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Christ.
7. **Revelation 20:4–6** — Christ's saints reign for a thousand years.
8. **Revelation 20:11–15** — the final judgment follows.

That is why I keep pressing the Daniel 7 passages. They aren't distractions from the discussion. **They are the passages that have to be reconciled with the Amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20.**

If you believe Daniel 7:22 was fulfilled 2,000 years ago, while Daniel 7:11 remains future, then I think the burden is to explain how that reading accounts for Daniel's own sequence—especially the relationship between **"until," the destruction of the beast, the removal of dominion, the prolonged lives of the other beasts, and the statement that all dominions will serve and obey Him.**

That's the issue I'm asking you to address.

I'm not angry with you, and I'm not trying to make this personal. I simply think that if we're going to have a biblical discussion, **we need to deal with the texts being presented rather than characterize the motives of the person presenting them.**

 

[rwb]

Go reread Acts ch 1.
You might learn that the Millenial Kingdom of Christ is NOT spiritual.
The Apostles and disciples were not looking for some invisible, ethereal, intangible, mystical Kingdom.
They were (and we are) looking for the literal, visible, physical reign of Christ.

Where in Acts 1 might we learn of this physical "Millennial Kingdom of Christ"?

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, but I don't call the hour that was coming and now is resurrection. Neither does Christ. Christ likens this to being born again. Since the hour coming came with Christ. Now, because of that hour man may hear the gospel and all who hear and believe on Him have everlasting life. This is not a resurrection because none hearing the gospel and believing are bodily resurrected. Only our spirit, through the gospel proclaimed and the power of the Holy Spirit in us is "awakened" from spiritual slumber every human is born in. This is how man is born again from spiritual lifelessness to being spiritually alive. It is not being resurrected, rather it is being born again. In this age we don't hear the voice of Christ audibly, our spirit according to grace through faith is enlightened to the truth (quickened).

John 5:24-27 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

The hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds does pertain to the bodily/physical resurrection of all who are in the graves. Because that shall be a bodily/physical resurrection to life again. For those who have done good, resurrected to immortal/incorruptible physical life forever. And for those who have done bad bodily resurrected to be condemned to the lake of fire, that is the second death.

John 5:28-30 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.



The same Spirit that gave life to Christ from the dead is sent to mankind and all who hear Him and believe become spiritually alive. The Spirit giving everlasting life to all who believe in the same manner enlightens every believer by the power of God, even those who lived in the days of the flood. We are ALL in a manner of speaking prisoners to death until we have been born again. For every man is destined to physical death and without the power of Christ in us, we would die in our sins condemned and without hope.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The life-giving Spirit of God has always been the source of spiritual enlightenment. The only difference between the Spirit of Old and the Spirit sent by Christ is the Spirit of Old was WITH believers but was not permanently IN them. Those who were of faith and eternally saved before the advent of Christ walking the earth a man is the same Spirit the now always dwells within those of faith.

John 14:16-18 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

In the days of the flood, God sent the Spirit through righteous Noah to preach to the people/prisoners to death, warning them of judgment to come and compelling them to believe in God.

2 Peter 2:5 (KJV) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

You are taking "the hour is coming, and now is" as one thing. It is two.

"And now is" — present, already underway as he spoke.

"The hour is coming" — future from the moment he said it, and we are not left guessing when that hour was. It was when Jesus speaks his words to those in the grave. Surely you would agree that happened when Christ died on the cross.

That puts two groups of dead in front of us:

1. Living men, dead in their sins, hearing his word and passing from death to eternal life. That is the "now is."
2. The dead in the graves, who were dead in their sins just as the first group was.

The hour when Jesus spoke to the dead in the grave is when - "and they shall be raised, they that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."

 

[IndianaRob]

We know the thousand years began with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man because He came in/with the Kingdom of God. Prior to His coming no man had access to the Kingdom of God in heaven, none could continue to be living souls after physical death. When Christ came, He tells us the Kingdom of God has come unto man. That's how John in Rev 20 writes of seeing martyred faithful saints as living souls in the Kingdom of God in heaven. They are alive even though physically dead because by Him making atonement for sin, and defeating death, the door of the Kingdom of God in heaven was opened for all who die believing in Christ.

The souls John saw alive in heaven did not need to be made alive AGAIN, no matter how many modern translations of Scripture write otherwise. NO! John is amazed to see the living souls in heaven of people who had been martyred for their faith, believing on Christ to redeem them, knowing the life they have through Him is everlasting and shall never die.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Matthew 21:43 — "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

You cannot take from a man what he never had. The Jews had it before Christ's death, which contradicts your claim that no man had access prior to His coming.

And it breaks the equation you are making. You say the thousand years began with the advent because Christ came with the Kingdom. But the Kingdom was already in their hands to be taken from them. It was not something that arrived with Him. So the Kingdom of God and the thousand year reign are not the same thing.

 

[IndianaRob]

Natural or unsaved man does not know because they cannot know the deep things of God. These things can only be known through the Spirit of God in us, who gives us knowledge and teaches us all things pertaining to God. We have His Spirit when we have been born again. The plainest passage in Scripture telling us we must be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God is found in the discussion Christ had with Nicodemus in JO 3. Why would Christ say we can know and enter the Kingdom of God when we are spiritually born again if we cannot spiritually enter the Kingdom of God that is not only in heaven but within us when we have been born again?

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The writer of Hebrews, inspired by God speaking of the spiritual dwelling place for believers, tells us we are "the spirits of just men made perfect." How? Because the Kingdom of God is within us when we have been born again. We don't look for the Kingdom of God in this world or on this earth because the Kingdom of God that is the spiritual realm of God is both in heaven and within whoever has been born again.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I asked for verses supporting one specific claim: that those awakened to everlasting life ascended with Christ to heaven as living souls rather than being resurrected. You have given me 1 Corinthians 2 on spiritual discernment, Hebrews 12 on the heavenly assembly, Luke 17 on where the kingdom is, and John 3 on the new birth. None of them mention Daniel's many. None mention the awakening. None mention anyone ascending with Christ.

I am not disputing that the kingdom is spiritual or that a man must be born again. Those were never the question. The question was where Scripture says the awakened ones of Daniel 12:2 went up as souls instead of being raised.

If the answer is that no passage says it, say so and we can move on.