MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[rwb]

You are taking "the hour is coming, and now is" as one thing. It is two.

"And now is" — present, already underway as he spoke.

"The hour is coming" — future from the moment he said it, and we are not left guessing when that hour was. It was when Jesus speaks his words to those in the grave. Surely you would agree that happened when Christ died on the cross.

That puts two groups of dead in front of us:

1. Living men, dead in their sins, hearing his word and passing from death to eternal life. That is the "now is."
2. The dead in the graves, who were dead in their sins just as the first group was.

The hour when Jesus spoke to the dead in the grave is when - "and they shall be raised, they that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."

The hour coming that now is, came when Christ made atonement for sin, defeated death and resurrected from the grave. Because the hour that was coming and now is has come, all who hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God and believe through the power of the Holy Spirit are being spiritually enlightened (awakened as thou from slumber) and being born again now know and enter the Kingdom of God (SPIRITUALLY).

The dead (physically) in the physical graves have not and will not hear the voice of Christ calling them to physical life again until the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds.

Jesus did not descend into the graves to speak to the dead. He descended down into the graves to set free the Old Covenant faithful saints who had been held captive to death until after the cross and resurrection, before ascending with them to the Kingdom of God in heaven. After His body was three days and three nights in the grave, Christ descended down to set the captives free taking them as spiritual body/living souls with Him to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 12:40 (KJV) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[rwb]

I asked for verses supporting one specific claim: that those awakened to everlasting life ascended with Christ to heaven as living souls rather than being resurrected. You have given me 1 Corinthians 2 on spiritual discernment, Hebrews 12 on the heavenly assembly, Luke 17 on where the kingdom is, and John 3 on the new birth. None of them mention Daniel's many. None mention the awakening. None mention anyone ascending with Christ.

I am not disputing that the kingdom is spiritual or that a man must be born again. Those were never the question. The question was where Scripture says the awakened ones of Daniel 12:2 went up as souls instead of being raised.

If the answer is that no passage says it, say so and we can move on.

None shall be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible before the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Therefore, these bodies of saints could not have been raised up bodily and seen in the earthly city of Jerusalem where they appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is a fulfillment of Dan 12:2 ascending up to heaven with Christ, as spiritual body/living souls just as Daniel has written, "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life", they went up with Christ to heaven. Flesh and blood nor corruption shall inherit the Kingdom of God. For that reason, the Old Covenant saints could only ascend up to heaven with Christ a spiritual body, still living souls without human form or corruption that shall not be done away before the bodily resurrection and change when the last trumpet sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[Davidpt]

"And now is" — present, already underway as he spoke.

"The hour is coming" — future from the moment he said it,

At least you are correct about everything I quoted. But what you submitted after that is where your interpretation started going south into a ditch.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


It would be pretty absurd of you to think Christ's resurrection is meant here. When Paul spoke these words, Christ had already lived, already died, already rose, and already ascended bodily back into heaven. Therefore, undeniably, only someone profoundly unreasonable could argue otherwise, the resurrection meant here is future still. And that it is clearly meaning John 5:28-29. Since that resurrection event/s undeniably also involves the resurrection of both the just and unjust.

But convince me I'm mistaken, that they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life = the just. They that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation = the unjust.

Though, you can argue that when Jesus spoke those words that would be John 5:28-29, that He hadn't even died yet, let alone rose, you can't equally argue the same is true when Paul spoke those words that would be Acts 24:15.

If the idea is to try and deceive others with some of your unbiblical interpretations, you are going to have to be a bit more clever about it than what you are being. You are making it too simple for some of the rest of us to debunk your unbiblical interpretations. One passage alone, Acts 24:15, already debunks your interpretation of John 5:28-29.

 

[Davidpt]

None shall be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible before the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Therefore, these bodies of saints could not have been raised up bodily and seen in the earthly city of Jerusalem where they appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is a fulfillment of Dan 12:2 ascending up to heaven with Christ, as spiritual body/living souls just as Daniel has written, "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life", they went up with Christ to heaven. Flesh and blood nor corruption shall inherit the Kingdom of God. For that reason, the Old Covenant saints could only ascend up to heaven with Christ a spiritual body, still living souls without human form or corruption that shall not be done away before the bodily resurrection and change when the last trumpet sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

What about the 2ws meant in Revelation 11? How do you explain them? According to the texts they rise then ascend into heaven before the 7th trumpet even sounds.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 21:43 — "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

You cannot take from a man what he never had. The Jews had it before Christ's death, which contradicts your claim that no man had access prior to His coming.

And it breaks the equation you are making. You say the thousand years began with the advent because Christ came with the Kingdom. But the Kingdom was already in their hands to be taken from them. It was not something that arrived with Him. So the Kingdom of God and the thousand year reign are not the same thing.

They were looking for a physical, material Kingdom of God to come to the earth. They could not understand the Kingdom of God Christ came with is not a physical Kingdom upon this earth, nor would it be, but is a spiritual Kingdom that is not of this world, is of heaven, and is within believers. The disciples of Christ would not understand this until after Pentecost where they received power from on high through the Holy Spirit in them. Even though when they asked when the Kingdom of God would come, when they were indwelt with the Spirit sent from Christ they understood that the church, being all who have been born again represents the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ came with and not even the gates of hell shall prevent Christ from building His Kingdom. Since the building of the Kingdom of God spiritually has been on-going since the first advent of Christ, it is apparent the thousand years when we shall live and reign with Christ began with His first coming and will end when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[JimKnox]

Where in Acts 1 might we learn of this physical "Millennial Kingdom of Christ"?

Acts 1:6.
Stop being obtuse.

 

[JimKnox]

None shall be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible before the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Therefore, these bodies of saints could not have been raised up bodily and seen in the earthly city of Jerusalem where they appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is a fulfillment of Dan 12:2 ascending up to heaven with Christ, as spiritual body/living souls just as Daniel has written, "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life", they went up with Christ to heaven. Flesh and blood nor corruption shall inherit the Kingdom of God. For that reason, the Old Covenant saints could only ascend up to heaven with Christ a spiritual body, still living souls without human form or corruption that shall not be done away before the bodily resurrection and change when the last trumpet sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Now you are denying Scripture and plain language
The passage SAYS bodies of the saints which slept arose.
Yet YOU say the Holy Spirit is deceiving Christians for 2000 years and did not mean BODIES!!!
They were SEEN by many people.
You are lying about Scripture and promoting rank heresy.

 

[rwb]

Acts 1:9.
Stop being obtuse.

You'll have to look a little harder! There is ZERO mention of a Millennial Kingdom of Christ is this passage! The Kingdom of Christ is forever, which is why we read absolutely NOWHERE in the Word of God that there shall be a literal ONE THOUSAND YEAR reign of Christ in heaven or upon the earth!

Acts 1:9-10 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Definition:
Obtuse - annoyingly slow to understand; dull-witted:

Seems to fit you to a tee, after all it is YOU who wishes to force fit what is not there into the Word of God.

 

[rwb]

Now you are denying Scripture and plain language
The passage SAYS bodies of the saints which slept arose.
Yet YOU say the Holy Spirit is deceiving Christians for 2000 years and did not mean BODIES!!!
They were SEEN by many people.
You are lying about Scripture and promoting rank heresy.

Here you go again, trying to force fit your unbiblical doctrine into the pages of Holy Writ. The text does NOT say these bodies of saints that came out of the graves were seen by "many PEOPLE." The passage tells us only that they "went into the holy city, and appeared unto MANY." Since the holy city they went into is Jerusalem from above, the many they were seen by would be celestial/heavenly beings, IOW spiritual inhabitants of the heavenly realm.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[IndianaRob]

At least you are correct about everything I quoted. But what you submitted after that is where your interpretation started going south into a ditch.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


It would be pretty absurd of you to think Christ's resurrection is meant here. When Paul spoke these words, Christ had already lived, already died, already rose, and already ascended bodily back into heaven. Therefore, undeniably, only someone profoundly unreasonable could argue otherwise, the resurrection meant here is future still. And that it is clearly meaning John 5:28-29. Since that resurrection event/s undeniably also involves the resurrection of both the just and unjust.

But convince me I'm mistaken, that they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life = the just. They that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation = the unjust.

Though, you can argue that when Jesus spoke those words that would be John 5:28-29, that He hadn't even died yet, let alone rose, you can't equally argue the same is true when Paul spoke those words that would be Acts 24:15.

If the idea is to try and deceive others with some of your unbiblical interpretations, you are going to have to be a bit more clever about it than what you are being. You are making it too simple for some of the rest of us to debunk your unbiblical interpretations. One passage alone, Acts 24:15, already debunks your interpretation of John 5:28-29.

Do you think God’s going to allow you into heaven before you’re judged? Do you think people are going to hell without first being judged?

 

[ewq1938]

"The hour that now is" refers to present conversion, you say. But the same word — "dead" — describes both groups, and the text never signals a change of sense.

@ewq1938 recognized this as well and gave a sound, logically consistent argument for literal death.

Verse 28 mentions people coming from graves but verse 25 doesn't. It's because the dead that were resurrected in those days had not been put in a grave like Lazarus etc.

 

[WPM]

Go reread Acts ch 1.
You might learn that the Millenial Kingdom of Christ is NOT spiritual.
The Apostles and disciples were not looking for some invisible, ethereal, intangible, mystical Kingdom.
They were (and we are) looking for the literal, visible, physical reign of Christ.

It doesn't matter what the motive or intent of the disciples were, Jesus was talking about a spiritual kingdom when they asked that question. And after they asked that question, He answered describing a spiritual kingdom. It is not hard to work out the thrust and detail of the kingdom. It was introduced 2000 years ago and has been expanding ever since. It is within us. It is entered by faith.

 

[WPM]

Go reread Acts ch 1.
You might learn that the Millenial Kingdom of Christ is NOT spiritual.
The Apostles and disciples were not looking for some invisible, ethereal, intangible, mystical Kingdom.
They were (and we are) looking for the literal, visible, physical reign of Christ.

Like I thought, you have nothing in Revelation 20 and you have nothing elsewhere in Scripture.

 

[JimKnox]

Like I thought, you have nothing in Revelation 20 and you have nothing elsewhere in Scripture.

Gaslighting is unbecoming of you.
Rev 20 is nothing but the Millenial Kingdom of Christ.

 

[WPM]

And you have room to talk in this case? That your goal is not to have biblical truth, but rather your goal has always been to disprove Premil doctrine. Sounds like to me you are doing that big 'A' word---Avoiding--meaning in regard to what I'm arguing per Daniel 7.

My reading of the texts in Daniel 7 vs your reading of the same texts does not lead me to believe that you are correct that Revelation 20:4-6 began 2000 years ago. In Daniel 7 verse 21 is fulfilled first. Then when the Ancient of days comes, the beast is then given to the burning flame at that time, verse 11.

It is absurd that verse 11 is meaning 2000 years ago rather than future still. Surely, even you agree verse 11 is future still. Therefore, you can't have verse 22 meaning in the past, 2000 years ago, then have verse 11 meaning 2000 years later when the until recorded in verse 22 pertains to verse 11 at that time. Thus, It is not until the little horn is given to the burning flame that the saints then possess the kingdom.

Your interpretation has them possessing the kingdom before the little horn is even given to the burning flame first. Your interpretation of verse 22 contradicts verse 27 below.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The text doesn't say some dominions will obey Him and some won't. It clearly says 'all'(kole)

kole
(Aramaic) corresponding to 'kol' (3605):--all, any, + (forasmuch) as, + be-(for this) cause, every, + no (manner, -ne), + there (where)-fore, + though, what (where, who)-soever, (the) whole.



Obviously then, this is meaning after verse 11 and 12 are fulfilled first. Because, before they are fulfilled, no one meant in verse 11-12 fit this yet---and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Not to mention---clearly, this--And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High--is meaning the time has come that the saints possessed the kingdom, which you equate with the beginning of your proposed millennium 2k years ago. Except 2K years ago this part was not yet true---and all dominions shall serve and obey him

The little horn is a dominion, the rest of the beasts per verse 12 are a dominion. Were any of them already serving and obeying him 2k years ago?

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Obviously, once this is fulfilled they have no choice but to serve and obey Him. Which is what they do via the millennium via being ruled with a rod of iron. Not via your millennium, via Premil's millennium. And the reason why their dominion is taken away is because the 7th trumpet has sounded at this point, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. But let's not interpret Scripture with Scripture. God forbid we do that.

In regard to the rest of the beasts meant in verse 12, we can't ignore--- yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time--when that initially happens is at the 7th trumpet. If Revelation 20:11-15 immediately follows the 7th trumpet, then how does one explain--yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time? That requires that there is a period of time reserved after the 7th trumpet but before Revelation 20:11-15, in order to fulfill---yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time


I'm trying to have a biblical discussion here since I'm dealing with the texts involved but you are not. Having a biblical discussion = dealing with the texts involved, and not---not dealing with the texts involved.

But hey, at least you have your cheering section supporting you. Therefore, you can't be wrong about any of this.

Premil destroys itself. It has zero corroboration. That is why you avoid rebuttals.

Address the Amil position above. Stop avoiding.

 

[WPM]

Gaslighting is unbecoming of you.
Rev 20 is nothing but the Millenial Kingdom of Christ.

If you had something you would present it. But you do not. You're avoidance bears testimony to the fact that you have no biblical support for your teaching. Amils just have to let Premil sink itself every time.

 

[JimKnox]

Here you go again, trying to force fit your unbiblical doctrine into the pages of Holy Writ. The text does NOT say these bodies of saints that came out of the graves were seen by "many PEOPLE." The passage tells us only that they "went into the holy city, and appeared unto MANY." Since the holy city they went into is Jerusalem from above, the many they were seen by would be celestial/heavenly beings, IOW spiritual inhabitants of the heavenly realm.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There you go again. Forcing your heresy into the text.
THEY WERE SEEN BY MANY!!!
That city is NOT the heavenly city as you so heretically assert. The text does not allow that nonsense.

 

[Davidpt]

Do you think God’s going to allow you into heaven before you’re judged? Do you think people are going to hell without first being judged?

If you are implying soul sleep, I indeed see it as a real possibility though currently it's not my position. IOW, unlike some others in here, I'm not closed-minded to the possibility soull sleep could be Biblical. From the perspective of the dead, since death could be timelessness, it might be as if, when they rise, they have only been asleep(dead) for a moment or so. But from the perspective of the living it equates into real measurable time that is experienced among those still alive. Literal things have happened over the course of the past 2k years, assuming someone died 2k years ago, in this example, observed by those still alive at the time. But those dead at the time do not experience any of these literal things that occurred over the past 2K years they have been dead. The question is, who's perspective should we be looking at this from?

So, when ppl think soul sleep, maybe they are looking at it from the perspective of the living rather than from the perspective of the dead.

How does this relate to what we have been debating concerning John 5:28-29?

 

[Scott Downey]

Luke 17, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 reinforces that when Christ comes again, the end comes, as there is a sudden destruction, for the world.


21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect’s sake, those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, ‘Lo, here is Christ,’ or ‘there,’ believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Therefore, if they shall say unto you, ‘Behold, He is in the desert!’ go not forth; or ‘Behold, He is in the secret chambers!’ believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken,

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and with great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 “Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour, knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark

39 and knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.

42 “Watch therefore, for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched and would not have suffered his house to be broken into.

44 Therefore be ye also ready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, that he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, ‘My lord delayeth his coming,’

49 and shall begin to smite his fellow servants and to eat and drink with the drunken,

50 the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 and shall cut him asunder and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Took and Taken consistently point to being carried away to destruction,
ALL of the unsaved will be destroyed on the Day when Christ returns,
none will be left to inherit the earth as Psalm 37 points out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psalm 37
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall be consumed; into smoke shall they be consumed away.

21 The wicked borroweth and payeth not back, but the righteous showeth mercy and giveth:

22 for such as are blessed by Him shall inherit the earth, but they that are cursed by Him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the Lord upholdeth him with His hand.

Matthew 24
28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Birds of prey eat the dead bodies of the wicked.

 

[Davidpt]

Premil destroys itself. It has zero corroboration. That is why you avoid rebuttals.

Address the Amil position above. Stop avoiding.

But let's don't address any Premil rebuttal, though. If I 'm reading Daniel 7 wrong then someone needs to prove it to me per the very same texts I'm using to determine what I'm concluding to begin with. If I can take the time to type out how I reason through those verses, the fact I'm a slow typer to begin with, surely someone else can take the time, especially someone that is not handicapped by slow typing, to reason through the very same verses I used then show why they are reading them correctly but I'm not.

I only used a small number of verses in Daniel 7 in order to try and make my points. Mainly verses 9-12, 21-22, 27. If I'm reading those wrong then go through all of them and demonstrate the correct way to read them. And then demonstrate how any of them relate to Revelation 20:4-6 or doesn't relate to them. @rwb already agrees verse 22 relates to Revelation 20:4-6.