Reconciled to God while enemies !

[brightfame52]

Saved by Grace through reconciliation while enemies ! 2

The fact is, its not Salvation by Grace or Justification by Grace unless we are by the Grace of the Death of Christ alone Heb 2:9, saved and or Justified before God while we are still disobedient, ungodly, and unbelievers, its only then can it be said when we do come to believe by the Power of the Holy Ghost, that we believed on Him that Justifieth the Ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So if we were anything but in a active state of ungodliness, and disobedience and unbelief when Christ's death alone reconciled us into the state of Divine Favor and Grace, we immediately have fallen from Grace, and any scripture testimony of being saved by Grace, and can only be judged as one who professes Salvation and or Justification by their works, which is condemned by the Word of God ! 9

 

[brightfame52]

Saved by Grace by Reconciliation !

When the Apostle writes to Believers @ Rome these words Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

He is teaching by and large what it means to be saved by Grace . Grace is the favor of God, and all for whom He died, Even While They Are Enemies, before they believe, repent or act any Gospel Obedience, and while they are actively disobedient, If Christ died for them, they are saved and received into the Favor of God ! The word for reconciled in Rom 5:10 is the greek word katallassō and means:

I.to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
A.
to reconcile (those who are at variance)

B.
return to favour with, be reconciled to one

C.
to receive one into favour

And thats what Grace is, God's Favor, and in His Favor is Life Ps 30:5

For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

And that Life is Salvation ! It's Life that Lasts a Lifetime here and ushers them into Life Eternal !

 

[brightfame52]

Saved by Grace by Reconciliation ! 2


Now that is what it means to be saved by Grace, as by the Gift of God. Its to be in a state of Favor and Blessing and Grace and Peace with God EVEN while we are at the same time being sinners, ungodly and disobedient and unbelievers, that is how God's Grace is Magnified the More, when its Saving Merit is applied when we have done nothing to deserve it, and while we are doing everything in our power to forfeit it.

Listen the fact is, its not never Salvation by Grace, or Justification by Grace unless we are by the Death of Christ alone, Saved, and or Justified before God, while we are yet still being disobedient, and ungodly, and unbelievers, then and only then can it be truthfully be said that we believed on Him that Justifieth the Ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This means we were Justified/ reconciled to God, while being Ungodly. Now if we were anything but ungodly, disobedient sinners when Christ's Death as a Free Gift Gift, Justified us before God or Reconciled us to God, then we immediately forfeit any claims of being Saved and or Justified by Grace, we can only be Judged as one who makes a profession of Salvation or Justification by Grace, but in actuality you believe in Justification by your works !

 

[brightfame52]

Shall be saved by His Life !

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

What the false teachers are ignorant of, with their using this verse to teach that Christ reconciled all humanity to Himself through the Death of Christ, that they are also stating another untruth, which is all without exception shall be saved by Christ's Life, simply because that is the Promise to them that were reconciled to God by His Death while they were enemies !

Now with that stated, who is it in this verse that it is promised they shall be saved by Christ's Life ? And what does this mean ? To answer the first question, Its all whom were reconciled to God, by Christ's Death, while being enemies and unbelievers !

The Promise to them is "being reconciled[while enemies], we shall be saved by his life."

The word shall puts this statement in the indicative mood which means:

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.Romans 5 :: King James Version (KJV)

Now this is True because His Life spoken of here Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

His Life is also their Life, for it would be just as appropriate for it to read, They shall be saved by their Life, since His Life is theirs, He rose with their Life in Him, as their Head; Paul wrote Col 3:4

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The Our here is His Body the Church, for whom He is the Head of Col 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

He was the Head of the Body the Church as the Firstborn from the dead, speaking of His Resurrection and the Life Rom 5:10 refers to !

Each Member of His Body was raised together with Him, and by virtue of that, each member of His Body shall be saved by His ? Their Life Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 10

 

[TahitiRun]

Shall be saved by His Life !

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

What the false teachers are ignorant of, with their using this verse to teach that Christ reconciled all humanity to Himself through the Death of Christ, that they are also stating another untruth, which is all without exception shall be saved by Christ's Life, simply because that is the Promise to them that were reconciled to God by His Death while they were enemies !

The entire world, that is: all of humanity was "in" Christ and was crucified "with" Christ. And this mystical union (I know of no other way to express it) happened when Jesus hung on the cross. Look at these texts:

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body—the assembly—who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things —himself—first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,

And here, where Paul confronts the pagans and states the following:

Act 17:28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

Paul states this to the very ones mocking him.

Act 17:18 And certain of the Epicurean and of the Stoic philosophers, were meeting together to see him, and some were saying, 'What would this seed picker wish to say?' and others, 'Of strange demons he doth seem to be an announcer;' because Jesus and the rising again he did proclaim to them as good news,

And again, Paul states:

2Co 5:14 for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,
2Co 5:15 and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again.

Subjectively, this has not come about for all. For as yet, not all have been made subject to Christ. However, it's objective fact has been. It's timing is, as yet, waiting to happen. And it will, as Paul states here:

1Co 15:25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet—
1Co 15:26 the last enemy is done away—death;
1Co 15:27 for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
1Co 15:28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

The end result is God all in all. And this is for all humanity. All creation. Death, the final enemy is done away. It's abolished and made useless.

 

[brightfame52]

Shall be saved by His Life ! 2

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now listen, those who were reconciled / saved by His Death shall also be saved by His Life !

False Teachers hijack this verse to say that the Death of Christ doesn't save anyone, but that His Life does !

But what these false teachers don't know is that this verse does not say that no one is saved by Christ's death, simply because that would be a untruth, in fact they are saved from by His death from the penalty of sin which is Death Rom 6:23 and because of that, His death for them abolishing Death 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

And since they have no more penalty of sin charged against them, which caused death, then Justice demands that they now be saved out of death by Christ's Life.

That Resurrection Life of Christ is theirs as He is their Head, and as their Head and Saviour He must communicate to them Resurrection Life to raise them from the Spiritually Dead, this proves His Headship of them and His being their Saviour. When this occurs in the life of anyone Christ died for 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Or Eph 2:4-6

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That's saved there in Vs 5 is what Paul meant in Rom 5:10 of the reconciled while they were enemies ! Because of reconciliation which indicates free from the charges of sin imputed 2 Cor 5:19, they therefore must be saved from Spiritual Death by His Life Giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45 ; Eph 2:5 !

This Life giving was made possible because His Death saved them from the Penalty of sin which incurs death, which His death for them satisfied God's Law and Justice, so now they must be according to Justice saved by Christ's Resurrected Life, quickening them from the Spiritually dead ! 10

 

[brightfame52]

The entire world, that is: all of humanity was "in" Christ and was crucified "with" Christ. And this mystical union (I know of no other way to express it) happened when Jesus hung on the cross. Look at these texts:

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body—the assembly—who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things —himself—first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,

And here, where Paul confronts the pagans and states the following:

Act 17:28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

Paul states this to the very ones mocking him.

Act 17:18 And certain of the Epicurean and of the Stoic philosophers, were meeting together to see him, and some were saying, 'What would this seed picker wish to say?' and others, 'Of strange demons he doth seem to be an announcer;' because Jesus and the rising again he did proclaim to them as good news,

And again, Paul states:

2Co 5:14 for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,
2Co 5:15 and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again.

Subjectively, this has not come about for all. For as yet, not all have been made subject to Christ. However, it's objective fact has been. It's timing is, as yet, waiting to happen. And it will, as Paul states here:

1Co 15:25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet—
1Co 15:26 the last enemy is done away—death;
1Co 15:27 for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
1Co 15:28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

The end result is God all in all. And this is for all humanity. All creation. Death, the final enemy is done away. It's abolished and made useless.

TahitiRun, you have completely abandoned Christian theology and open-air exegesis to run headfirst into the heresy of Universalism and Pantheistic Inclusionism. To escape the iron-clad logic of Romans 5:10, you are making a monstrous category mistake: you are taking verses about God’s physical creation and providential maintenance of the universe, and you are trying to forge them into a legal covenant of salvation for everyone. Let’s unmask your error. [1]

1. The Total Failure of Your Acts 17 & Colossians 1 Argument

You quote Colossians 1:16–17 (“in him all things consist”) and Acts 17:28 (“in him we live, and move, and have our being”) to claim that all of humanity was crucified with Christ.

You are completely blind to the difference between God’s Providential Power as Creator and God’s Saving Grace as a Redeemer.

When Paul tells the pagan philosophers in Acts 17 that they "live and move" in God, he isn't telling them they are legally justified by the cross! He is telling them that God is the Creator who gives them physical breath, physical heartbeat, and physical existence.

Let's apply your bizarre logic to Colossians 1:16–17. Paul says that all things—visible and invisible, thrones, dominions, principalities, powers, the stars, the oceans, and the dirt—consist in Christ. If your definition of "in Christ" means redemptive crucifixion, then you must believe that the physical dirt, the solar system, the Roman Empire, and the devils themselves were legally crucified and saved with Christ on the cross! You have turned the legal cross of Calvary into a generic, mystical soup.

2. The Strict Boundaries of 2 Corinthians 5:14–15

You run to 2 Corinthians 5:14 and quote, “if one died for all, then all died,” claiming this "all" means every single individual of Adam's physical posterity without exception. Why did you desperately skip the very next sentence in verse 15? [1]
Let’s read the text exactly as the Holy Spirit wrote it:

“And that he died for all, THAT THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”

The Holy Spirit locks the text into an airtight loop! The "all" for whom Christ died is identical to "they which live" and "live unto Him."
Let’s apply basic logic: Do the non-elect tares live unto Christ? No. Does the serpent's seed live unto Him? No. Jesus explicitly tells the workers of iniquity, “I NEVER knew you: depart from me” (Matthew 7:23). They never lived unto Him, because they were never included in that "all." The "all" in 2 Corinthians 5 is the "all" of the Church (Ephesians 5:25), the "all" of the sheep (John 10), and the "all" of the New Creation (2 Cor 5:17).

3. Universal Subjugation is NOT Universal Salvation

You use 1 Corinthians 15:25–28 to argue that because God will be "all in all" and all enemies are put under His feet, everyone will be saved. You are completely rewriting ancient legal and military vocabulary.

When a conquering King in the ancient world put his enemies "under his feet," he didn't throw them a party, embrace them in covenant love, and take them home to his palace. He crushed them under his heels in total judicial execution!

Being subjected to Christ does not mean universal salvation; it means Universal Subjugation. The elect sheep are subjected to His love and mercy; the non-elect tares and workers of iniquity are subjected to His absolute wrath, broken with a rod of iron, and dashed in pieces like a potter's vessel (Psalm 2:9).

Death is destroyed as the "last enemy" because the physical graves will be completely emptied at the final resurrection (Glorification Phase for the elect, and the Resurrection of Damnation for the rest). The wicked are then cast legally into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second Death (Revelation 20:14).


The Bottom Line

Your "mystical union" is a scriptural fairy tale. You have to deny the literal words of Christ in Matthew 25 where He sends the goats into everlasting punishment, and you have to flat-out ignore Romans 11:7 where the election obtains it and the rest are blinded by God.

True Salvation by Grace is an unbroken legal chain: those He reconciled by His death while they were enemies are the exact same people He saves by His resurrected life (Romans 5:10) through the monergistic quickening of the Spirit. If Christ died for your "entire world" of individuals, then your entire world must be saved by His life. Since they aren't, your universalist system is exposed as a complete theological shipwreck. Stop mixing up the creation mud with the covenant blood, and bow to a Savior who actually discriminates between the wheat and the tares!

---

 

[TahitiRun]

TahitiRun, you have completely abandoned Christian theology

Yes, I have abandoned your theology. I don't find your theology to be "Christian". And thank-you for the response. The ideas you're expressing are framed within a Hellenistic narrative at its core. The type of universalism you mention is not the type I'm actually thinking of. Nor do I hold to Pantheistic Inclusion. That Greek concept is not what it means to be "in Christ".

To escape the iron-clad logic of Romans 5:10,

Location, "in Christ", is not limited to providential maintenance. Yes, providence is included but being "in" Christ is not limited or restricted to the idea of maintenance. For example, Paul tells us all things were made "for" Christ.

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

All things are "for" Christ. Not some things, not one group to the exclusion of others, but rather "all things through Him and for him have been created". And that is the purpose of the "all things". That is: to be "in", "through" and "for", Him. Those are very important prepositions. To get a fuller idea of what this means, read the following:

2Co 1:20 For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes. Therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.

All the promises of God are said to be yes "in Him". In Christ all promises are yes. Not no to some and yes to others, but "yes". And every human being is "in Him", and the promises of God to them and for them are "yes". This is indisputable.

I realize your doctrine teaches God created some for the very purpose of reprobation. However, this idea does not agree with the Gen 1:26-28 or the Gen 2:7 account. Your reformed theology is looking at this through the lens of Hellenistic and Greek philosophy rather than the Hebrew mind set.

You should first define what is man? And the bible tells us. Man (ie: Adam) consists of two elements: A body formed from dust and the breath of life. Those two elements are animated by two distinct natures from two distinct places. One from the earth and the other from God. Those two elements form the compound called a "living being" (Gen 2:7). It's that being that Paul stated in Acts 17:28 "lives, moves and has it's being" in Him. "In Christ". This is what we are talking about.

Let’s unmask your error. [1]

1. The Total Failure of Your Acts 17 & Colossians 1 Argument

Both are included when being "in Christ". And all of humanity is "in Christ".

When Paul tells the pagan philosophers in Acts 17 that they "live and move" in God, he isn't telling them they are legally justified by the cross! He is telling them that God is the Creator who gives them physical breath, physical heartbeat, and physical existence.

Actually, that is exactly what Paul stated regarding justification:

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

So yes, all men are legally justified by Christ, even while in unbelief. Justification is objective and it's faithfulness is found in Christ's one act of righteousness for those "in Him", of which all are.

Let's apply your bizarre logic to Colossians 1:16–17.

It's not mystical soup. Paul defines it in Rom 8:19-22:

If you'll notice v.22, God subjected creation itself to futility in Hope, that is "in Christ".

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, our hope,

So yes, "in Christ" (that is: our Hope) creation too will be set free.

2. The Strict Boundaries of 2 Corinthians 5:14–15

You run to 2 Corinthians 5:14 and quote, “if one died for all, then all died,” claiming this "all" means every single individual of Adam's physical posterity without exception.

There is both an objective and subjective distinction being made. The objective aspect is 2Co 5:14. It's subjective aspect follows in v.15, living for Christ. When Saul hung on the cross "with Christ", he was not living for Christ. Just the opposite, Saul/Paul was in open hostility and aggression towards Jesus. Yet, Paul tells us:

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died has been justified from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Gal 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

The Holy Spirit locks the text into an airtight loop!

Again, you're failing to see the objective aspect and it's subjective results in time. When Saul/Paul lived according to the flesh Paul was still "in Christ". When Jesus says to depart from me, He is speaking to the fleshly nature of man that works iniquity, not the breath of God that animates the spiritual aspect of man. You need to go back to Gen 2:7.

I agree, the flesh is not spiritual (1Co 2:14). The flesh lives according to it's own nature, derived from the earth.

3. Universal Subjugation is NOT Universal Salvation

You use 1 Corinthians 15:25–28 to argue that because God will be "all in all" and all enemies are put under His feet, everyone will be saved. You are completely rewriting ancient legal and military vocabulary.

For the flesh, yes. Paul tells us this too:

Gal 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ....
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him....
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—

All in Christ were cursed with Him according to the flesh, and all were justified with Him according to the spirit (1Ti 3:16):

Being subjected to Christ does not mean universal salvation;

All are elect in Christ, for the simple reason of being "in Him" No exceptions to this as Paul has stated multiple times.

What you're describing with the texts you've cited is the division of man. The separation of flesh and spirit. For some, this division comes about through regeneration and repentance. The change of mind from that of the flesh to that of the spirit. For others, this change comes at death. Solomon describes it for us here:

Ecc 12:5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blooms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home, but the mourners go about in the street.
Ecc 12:6 Remember Him before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the spring is broken and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;
Ecc 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Solomon is describing the reversal of Gen 2:7. And it's homes are said to be eternal (v.5)

The Bottom Line

Your "mystical union" is a scriptural fairy tale.

If you'll continue to read beyond Rom 11:7 you'll find the following:

Rom 11:11 I say then, did they stumble so as to fall? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

True Salvation by Grace is an unbroken legal chain:

Yes, and all will be saved. Not all are subjectively saved at this time, however all will be saved. That is exactly my point.

Since they aren't, your universalist system is exposed as a complete theological shipwreck.

All will be saved by the grace of God, however we do not see it as yet. The author of Hebrews states this in Heb 2:8-9

Heb 2:8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.” For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels—Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

---

Anyway, a very long post. Too long. Perhaps others will also join in.

 

[brightfame52]

Reconciliation ensures all of Salvation !

Understand something, We know that Christ did not die for all mankind individually without exception, if we believe the Truth about His Death, in how it secures and ensures that those He died for shall be saved by His Life Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now lets consider here that its an stated fact that those Christ died for, even while they were enemies, that is to say unbelievers, even then they were reconciled to God; and the promise to them now reconciled to God while enemies, by His Death is " THEY SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE" !

So now if He reconciled all mankind without exception to God while they were enemies and unbelievers by His Death [supposing He died for them] and yet these same enemies thus reconciled by His death are not SAVED BY HIS LIFE AS PROMISED then the scripture has been proved to be false and a lie.

The only way for it not to be proved false is if all humanity without exception shall eventually be saved by His Life, which equates to universalism, another false teaching of the ungodly, or that Christ's Death was Limited to only the saved, which is limited atonement, or limited reconciliation !

So which do you believe today ? Let us examine our hearts before God and His Truth ! If you believe Christ died for all humanity without exception and reconciled them to God while enemies as Per Rom 5:10 then you either believe in Universal-ism or you believe that the scriptures teach limited atonement, you cant straddle the fence ! 10

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, I have abandoned your theology. I don't find your theology to be "Christian". And thank-you for the response. The ideas you're expressing are framed within a Hellenistic narrative at its core. The type of universalism you mention is not the type I'm actually thinking of. Nor do I hold to Pantheistic Inclusion. That Greek concept is not what it means to be "in Christ".

Location, "in Christ", is not limited to providential maintenance. Yes, providence is included but being "in" Christ is not limited or restricted to the idea of maintenance. For example, Paul tells us all things were made "for" Christ.

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

All things are "for" Christ. Not some things, not one group to the exclusion of others, but rather "all things through Him and for him have been created". And that is the purpose of the "all things". That is: to be "in", "through" and "for", Him. Those are very important prepositions. To get a fuller idea of what this means, read the following:

2Co 1:20 For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes. Therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.

All the promises of God are said to be yes "in Him". In Christ all promises are yes. Not no to some and yes to others, but "yes". And every human being is "in Him", and the promises of God to them and for them are "yes". This is indisputable.

I realize your doctrine teaches God created some for the very purpose of reprobation. However, this idea does not agree with the Gen 1:26-28 or the Gen 2:7 account. Your reformed theology is looking at this through the lens of Hellenistic and Greek philosophy rather than the Hebrew mind set.

You should first define what is man? And the bible tells us. Man (ie: Adam) consists of two elements: A body formed from dust and the breath of life. Those two elements are animated by two distinct natures from two distinct places. One from the earth and the other from God. Those two elements form the compound called a "living being" (Gen 2:7). It's that being that Paul stated in Acts 17:28 "lives, moves and has it's being" in Him. "In Christ". This is what we are talking about.

Both are included when being "in Christ". And all of humanity is "in Christ".

Actually, that is exactly what Paul stated regarding justification:

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

So yes, all men are legally justified by Christ, even while in unbelief. Justification is objective and it's faithfulness is found in Christ's one act of righteousness for those "in Him", of which all are.

It's not mystical soup. Paul defines it in Rom 8:19-22:

If you'll notice v.22, God subjected creation itself to futility in Hope, that is "in Christ".

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, our hope,

So yes, "in Christ" (that is: our Hope) creation too will be set free.

There is both an objective and subjective distinction being made. The objective aspect is 2Co 5:14. It's subjective aspect follows in v.15, living for Christ. When Saul hung on the cross "with Christ", he was not living for Christ. Just the opposite, Saul/Paul was in open hostility and aggression towards Jesus. Yet, Paul tells us:

TahitiRun, your response moves from unscriptural universalism straight into full-blown Gnostic heresy. You have invented a mythological "division of man" to escape the execution of God's wrath. Let’s systematically dismantle your errors using strict biblical realism and the unbreakable chain of God’s decree.

1. The Gnostic Heresy of "Splitting the Sinner"

Your argument regarding Genesis 2:7 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 is a complete theological fairy tale. You claim that when Christ says "depart from me, ye that work iniquity," He is only speaking to a detached "fleshly nature," while the "breath of life" is automatically saved.
Scripture utterly rejects this. God does not judge abstract "natures"; He judges concrete persons. Christ did not say "depart from me, fleshly nature." He said, "depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23). It is the person who is cast into the lake of fire—body, soul, and spirit (Matthew 10:28). Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 12:7 stating that the spirit returns to God does not mean universal salvation; it means the spirit returns to its Creator to stand before Him in judgment (Hebrews 9:27). You have invented a split-man theology that allows a person to live like a devil, die in unregeneracy, and still claim their spirit is "in Christ". This is not the Hebrew mindset; it is ancient Gnosticism wrapped in a Christian vocabulary.

2. The Total Distortion of Romans 5:18 and Justification

You claim that under Romans 5:18, "all men are legally justified by Christ, even while in unbelief". This is an absolute exegetical impossibility that destroys the Gospel.

If every individual human without exception were legally justified in 33 AD, then no human being is currently under condemnation. Yet, the Holy Spirit explicitly states in John 3:18 that the unbeliever "is condemned already," and in John 3:36 that the "wrath of God abideth on him." If wrath is currently abiding on an unbeliever, they cannot simultaneously be legally justified before God!
Furthermore, you are ripping Romans 5:18 completely out of its covenantal context. Paul is contrasting two federal heads: Adam and Christ. The "all men" under Adam face condemnation; the "all men" under Christ receive justification. If the "all men" under Christ means every individual human without exception, then all humans must receive the vital phase of salvation (Phase III). Paul defines the recipients of this justification in Romans 5:17 as those who "receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness." Do the workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:23 possess the gift of righteousness? Absolutely not. Therefore, they were never legally justified in Christ.

3. The Absurdity of a "Universal, Unregenerate Union"

You quote Romans 6:6 and Galatians 2:20 to claim that Saul of Tarsus was "in Christ" while he was actively murdering Christians in open hostility. You are confusing God's Eternal Decretive Phase (Phase I) with the Vital Phase (Phase III).
Decretively, the elect are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. But experimentally and vitally, they are not "in Christ" until they are quickened by the Holy Spirit. Paul explicitly states in Romans 16:7 that Andronicus and Junia "were in Christ before me." If being "in Christ" simply means being a human being animated by God's breath, Paul’s statement is completely meaningless. How could they be "in Christ" before Paul if everyone is automatically "in Christ" by virtue of creation? To be vitally "in Christ" requires the effectual call of the Spirit. You cannot have the legal phase without the vital phase.

4. The Context of Romans 11:32

Finally, you run to Romans 11:32 ("God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all") to demand a universalist conclusion.

As John Gill masterfully points out, the "all" in Romans 11 does not mean every individual human from Cain to Judas. The context of Romans 9–11 is the historic handling of two distinct corporate groups: Jew and Gentile. God shut up the Gentiles in unbelief for centuries, then showed them mercy. He has now shut up the Jews in unbelief, so that He may ultimately show them mercy in the latter days. It is an "all" without distinction (both Jews and Gentiles), not an "all" without exception.

Salvation is an unbroken, sovereign chain. God's first cause ensures that those He chose in Phase I are the exact same people He legally justified in Phase II, vitally quickens in Phase III, practically converts in Phase IV, and brings to final glory in Phase V. Your universalism breaks the chain, splits the sinner, and forces God to justify people who are currently under His active wrath.

Now questions for you to please address:

• On Current Condemnation: "If every individual human without exception was legally justified at the cross per your reading of Romans 5:18, why does John 3:36 state that the 'wrath of God abideth' on the unbeliever? [1] How can a person be simultaneously justified by God's grace and under God's abiding wrath?"
• On Romans 16:7: "If every human being is inherently 'in Christ' because their physical existence and breath are grounded in Him (Gen 2:7 / Acts 17:28), why does Paul explicitly state in Romans 16:7 that certain believers 'were in Christ before me'? [1] How can one person enter Christ before another if all humanity is universally and eternally in Him by creation?"
• On the Judgment of the Person: "When Christ tells the reprobate to 'depart from me' in Matthew 7:23, what specific entity is being cast into the lake of fire? [1] If it is the 'fleshly nature' derived from the earth, how can an impersonal nature 'work iniquity' or experience conscious torment, since scripture says it is the soul/person that sins and is judged?"

 

[TahitiRun]

TahitiRun, your response moves from unscriptural universalism straight into full-blown Gnostic heresy.

1. The Gnostic Heresy of "Splitting the Sinner"

Thanks for the response. The posts are too long so I'll be brief.

Paul divides the person in 1Co 5:5. Flesh from spirit. The flesh is given over to destruction to the saving of the spirit. This is biblical, not Gnostic. Gnosticism does not affirm this. You'll need a refresher course in what Gnosticism is.

He judges concrete persons.

Yes, and Paul tells us this, and even identifies himself in Gal 2:20 (using the first person singular in the verb συνεσταυρωμαι), with the "old man" in Rom 6:6, here:

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him,
Gal 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ

2. The Total Distortion of Romans 5:18 and Justification

You claim that under Romans 5:18, "all men are legally justified by Christ, even while in unbelief". This is an absolute exegetical impossibility that destroys the Gospel.

It's the flesh that is crucified with Christ, not the breath of life. And the flesh is what Paul himself calls the "old man".

If every individual human without exception were legally justified in 33 AD, then no human being is currently under condemnation.

The flesh has been judged and is under condemnation. (Joh 3:18). And it will never see life. (Joh 3:36). So yes, you can perish according to the flesh while being (present tense), or to be (future tense) "saved" according to the spirit.

Yet, the Holy Spirit explicitly states in John 3:18 that the unbeliever "is condemned already," and in John 3:36 that the "wrath of God abideth on him." If wrath is currently abiding on an unbeliever, they cannot simultaneously be legally justified before God!

Yes, man/Adam can be. Man consists of both: Flesh and spirit/breath of life. (Gen 2:7)

Furthermore, you are ripping Romans 5:18 completely out of its covenantal context. Paul is contrasting two federal heads: Adam and Christ. The "all men" under Adam face condemnation; the "all men" under Christ receive justification.

Yes, in Christ, you partake of both. Both aspects (1) being crucified and (2) being justified with Christ are objective.

If the "all men" under Christ means every individual human without exception, then all humans must receive the vital phase of salvation (Phase III). Paul defines the recipients of this justification in Romans 5:17 as those who "receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness." Do the workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:23 possess the gift of righteousness? Absolutely not. Therefore, they were never legally justified in Christ.

Again, you partake of both. The subjective aspect is in the receiving or imputation of righteousness. This has not happened, as yet, for all. Read Rom 4:5. The declaration of being justified (δικαιοῦντα) is objective. The imputation (λογίζεται) of righteousness is subjective. Two different Greek terms are being applied using two different Greek verb/participle. One is a declaration and the other is an imputation.

Rom 4:5 τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐργαζομένῳ, πιστεύοντι δὲ ἐπὶ τὸν δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἀσεβῆ λογίζεται ἡ πίστις αὐτοῦ εἰς δικαιοσύνην,

3. The Absurdity of a "Universal, Unregenerate Union"

Actually, you can be. Jesus gives an example of being "in" but not "of", here:

Joh 17:11 “And I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

And yet, not of the world:

Joh 17:14 “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

The Greek prepositions are critical. It's best not to overlook them. So yes, an unbeliever can be "in" Christ, where all the promises of God to them are made (2Co 1:20), while not being "of" Christ, that is: having received Christ, as yet. Paul himself being our example. Crucified with Christ and loved by Christ at the same time.

You quote Romans 6:6 and Galatians 2:20 to claim that Saul of Tarsus was "in Christ" while he was actively murdering Christians in open hostility. You are confusing God's Eternal Decretive Phase (Phase I) with the Vital Phase (Phase III).
Decretively, the elect are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. But experimentally and vitally, they are not "in Christ" until they are quickened by the Holy Spirit. Paul explicitly states in Romans 16:7 that Andronicus and Junia "were in Christ before me." If being "in Christ" simply means being a human being animated by God's breath, Paul’s statement is completely meaningless. How could they be "in Christ" before Paul if everyone is automatically "in Christ" by virtue of creation? To be vitally "in Christ" requires the effectual call of the Spirit. You cannot have the legal phase without the vital phase.

lol...seriously? Rom 16:7 is contextually being "in" and "of" Christ. Andronicus and Junia were both a "kinsmen and fellow prisoner" prior to Paul being himself "found" in Christ (Php 3:9), that is Christ in Paul. To be "found" in Christ you must first exist in Christ. Being "found" is the subjective aspect of being "in Christ" while Christ is "in" you. This is where a person has been made subject to Christ and is "of" Christ. Not all are, as yet, made subject to Christ (Heb 2:8).

I posted this previously.

4. The Context of Romans 11:32

Finally, you run to Romans 11:32 ("God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all") to demand a universalist conclusion.

As John Gill masterfully points out..

John Gill can be humorous at times, and you've provided a good example. If you want to find out what's in left field, or perhaps what is over the fence, turn to Gill. He'll be the first to show you. The conclusion that Paul gives is the verdict, and here it is for both Jew and Gentile, the only two groups and it's for all.

Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

• On Current Condemnation: "If every individual human without exception was legally justified at the cross per your reading of Romans 5:18, why does John 3:36 state that the 'wrath of God abideth' on the unbeliever? [1] How can a person be simultaneously justified by God's grace and under God's abiding wrath?"

Already answered. Here, double click διχοστασία (Gal 5:20) and read what it means: Faith unites us to Christ, the works of the flesh and having the mind of the flesh (Rom 8:6-8) vs. the mind of the spirit, divides us from Christ.

• On Romans 16:7: "If every human being is inherently 'in Christ' because their physical existence and breath are grounded in Him (Gen 2:7 / Acts 17:28), why does Paul explicitly state in Romans 16:7 that certain believers 'were in Christ before me'? [1] How can one person enter Christ before another if all humanity is universally and eternally in Him by creation?"

Answered above.

• On the Judgment of the Person: "When Christ tells the reprobate to 'depart from me' in Matthew 7:23, what specific entity is being cast into the lake of fire? [1] If it is the 'fleshly nature' derived from the earth, how can an impersonal nature 'work iniquity' or experience conscious torment, since scripture says it is the soul/person that sins and is judged?"

That which works iniquity, called the flesh (Gal 5:19), is destroyed. It perishes, it's called "death" and will be abolished and made useless (1Co 15:26). The nature, or natural man, is not impersonal, it's who we are until separated through regeneration or physical death. Read how Paul defines it in Rom 7, culminating in v.24-25. And for those who experience the division/separation, they will experience it's sorrow in the form of pain/torment. There is no actual "time" involved. It's a timeless event, and it ends by being wiped away by God Himself, here:

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
Rev 21:4 and He will WIPE AWAY EVERY TEAR FROM THEIR EYES; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain. The first things passed away.”

 

[TahitiRun]

Brightfame52, The real division between us, I believe, is the Hebrew understanding of Gen 1:26-28 and Gen 2:7.

You've clearly conceptualized and articulated man having 3 distinct entities. That is: a spirit, a soul and a body (1Th 5:23) that makes-up a "man". The issue, as I see it, isn't actually with 1Th 5:23, but rather with how those entities are being understood or perhaps conflated (for example: Calvin and Augustine would often conflate soul and spirit). You're clearly using the lens of Greek thinking and philosophy to define what a "man" is or consists of, similar to how Calvin and Augustine did.

This, as I see it, is how you and I got here: During the Hellenistic period, the Septuagint (LXX) was the Greek gold standard for translating the Hebrew text. The LXX is an excellent translation but being Greek it carries Greek thinking with it. And, over time, as the Hebrew NT church became dominated by Gentiles, it's Greek thinking prevailed and this thinking has been passed down to our English speaking world and the Eastern Orthodox Church in particular. These Greek ideas now dominate our theology, doctrines, dogma and most importantly our English translations and how we read and understand the Hebrew and Greek texts.

The Hebrew text however, does not actually have or convey the Greek concepts of "soul" and "spirit" with which you've used those terms or how Gill, Calvin, the Protestant Reformers, Augustine, etc., use them. And because of this it makes it difficult to see each other on a level playing field. And until that can be resolved, we'll both continue to talk past one another.

Anyway, it's been a pleasure to discuss the bible with you. Even this topic of "How we got here" is fascinating to explore. Others might want to join in too.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ's death in reconciliation has a Two Fold purpose, it was to reconcile God to man and man to God! If it doesn't do this, it was a failure to Gods purpose , but it did Reconcile both sides as scripture teaches !

 

[brightfame52]

Reconciled to God , more of what it means ?

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

What does being reconciled to God mean ? Yes even when unbelievers and enemies !

It means that even as enemies and unbelievers God has no sins to charge against them, because all their sins have been put away by the Lord Jesus Christ.

These also God in Justice will not and cannot deal in wrath towards them for their sins as He will with others in a state of disobedience Eph 5:3-6

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things[In Vs 3-5] cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

This wrath of God here does include the second death Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Notice a similar list of sins are here mentioned like those in Eph 5:3-5 !

I believe its the Wrath to come 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

And its the wrath spoken of here 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Now all whom Christ by His death reconciled to God, they were not appointed to wrath, and that even while enemies and unbelievers, even then they are saved from the Wrath to come through Him Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Through Him here means through His Death ! In fact the word through here in Vs 9 is the same word BY in Vs 10:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Its the prep dia, which means "on account of" and so we were saved from wrath and reconciled to God on account of His Death, because of it, and no other cause can be considered without turning into idolatry ! 10

 

[brightfame52]

Making Peace / Reconciliation by the Blood of His Cross!

Consider carefully what Paul says in Colossians 1:20:

“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

Notice the language:

“Having made peace through the blood of his cross.”

Peace was made by the blood of Christ.

It was not merely made possible by His blood, awaiting some subsequent action of man to make it effective. Christ's blood actually accomplished the peace and reconciliation of those whom He represented.

Now compare this with Romans 5:10:

“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

There is the timing that so many want to avoid:

“When we were enemies.”

Not when we were believing.

Not when we had repented.

Not when we had exercised faith.

When we were enemies.

And how were we reconciled?

“By the death of his Son.”

Therefore, the reconciliation Paul describes cannot be reduced to a reconciliation that only becomes real after faith. The death of Christ itself accomplished reconciliation.

This is consistent with Colossians 1:20:

Peace was made through the blood of His cross.

Now, someone may object by appealing to Romans 5:1:

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

But there is no contradiction.

Romans 5:1 speaks of the believer's experienced and consciously enjoyed peace with God through faith.

Colossians 1:20 and Romans 5:10 speak of the objective peace and reconciliation accomplished by Christ's death.

Faith does not create the peace that Christ purchased. Faith brings the regenerated sinner into the knowledge, enjoyment, and confession of that peace.

This distinction is essential.

The elect can be, in themselves, enemies and unbelievers, while at the same time having been objectively reconciled to God through the death of Christ.

Their inward condition has not yet changed—that belongs to the Vital Phase of salvation, when God gives them life by His Spirit.

But the Legal Phase was accomplished by Christ.

Christ's blood made peace.

Christ's death reconciled.

Christ bore their sins.

Christ satisfied divine justice.

And afterward, by sovereign grace, the Holy Spirit brings those same people to repentance and faith, whereby they personally know and enjoy the peace Christ has already accomplished for them.

Therefore, the Gospel is not:

“Christ made peace possible; now see whether man will make it actual.”

The Gospel is:

Christ made peace through the blood of His cross.

And Romans 5:10 tells us something remarkable about that accomplished reconciliation:

it was accomplished “when we were enemies.”

That is the glory of sovereign grace.

The efficacy of Christ's blood does not wait for the sinner's faith to make His finished work successful. Faith is God's gracious gift by which the reconciled sinner comes to know and rejoice in the peace Christ actually accomplished.

 

[brightfame52]

Making Peace /reconciliation by the blood of His Cross !2

Now the word peace in Col 1:20

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Its the greek word eirénopoieó: I make peace, reconcile.

to make peace, establish harmony:

Now Christ by His death established Peace and Harmony, reconciliation between the Parties of Men and God, the relationship was mended on both sides !

Now one may ask how could this be, when those Christ died for are born into this world as sinners and enemies like others are See Rom 5:10 ! They are by nature alienated from the Life of God ! But here's how it was done. When Christ rose from the dead, after having died for the sins of God's Sheep, sins that had been charged to Him, He rose reconciled to God on their behalf, their sins having been put away, purged away Heb 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Now God was reconciled to Christ and the Sheep in Him, having been alienated from Him in Divine Justice because of their sins; Christ for sins imputed was forsaken of God the Righteous Judge Matt 27:46

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? See also Ps 22:1 !

You see when God the Father was executing His fierce wrath upon the Son Shepherd and Surety for the sins of His People , He was as the Prophet wrote:

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:

And at this time God was not at Peace with His Son for Justice sake, He abandoned Him to the curse and condemnation for the iniquities of His Chosen, He turned away from, was alienated from Him, because of the blackness of sins charged upon Him !

But yet after He exhausted His Justice, and to give evidence that He has been exonerated, God raised Him from the Dead as the God of Peace Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace/reconciled, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

The word for peace here means:

eirḗnē (from eirō, "to join, tie together into a whole") – properly, wholeness, i.e. when all essential parts are joined together; peace (God's gift of wholeness).

Christ was raised from the Dead, reconciled to God, and God to Him, but not for His sake, but for the sake of the People He died for, and put away their sins. God now sees all for whom He died as being in Harmony with Him, because Christ their Head is. Its just like with Adam, before the fall of the elect in him, they in adam were in harmony and friendship with God ! The harmony between both Parties has been restored by Christ blood establishing Peace, and this is the Message of Peace in the Gospel Rom 10:15

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Not a possibility of Peace if they do this or that, but Peace in that they have in Christ, been reconciled to God, and God to them !

 

[brightfame52]

God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ!

According to the explicit testimony of 2 Corinthians 5:18, how did God reconcile His people to Himself? Was it by their faith or their subsequent repentance? Was it by their independent obedience? Does the text say it was achieved by their own free will?
No, it was none of that. It required no act of theirs, no human contribution, and no conditional performance. The Holy Spirit declares that God did it entirely "by Jesus Christ"—meaning by His substitutionary death on the cross:

“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.” (1 Peter 2:24-25)
His historic death, and all it legally effected, set in motion the actual, complete reconciliation of those He died for back to God. The word "reconciled" in 2 Corinthians 5:18 is the Greek word katallasso, which means to change, exchange, or thoroughly reconcile. It denotes a profound change from active enmity to intimate friendship.

This change does not describe God changing His eternal mind toward the elect; it describes the vital overturning of the sinner's natural enmity toward God. By nature, those whom Christ died for were openly hostile rebels:
“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” (Romans 5:10)

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” (Romans 8:7)
All men by nature possess this carnal mind. Left to our own natural strength and human determination, we are alienated and enemies in our minds by wicked works (Colossians 1:21).

How then is this terrible, unyielding enmity ever overcome? It is broken down and conquered exclusively by the raw, purchasing power of Christ's cross! Our spiritual faith to come to Him in a pleasing manner (Hebrews 11:6) and our internal heart-friendship toward God do not arise out of our unregenerate wills. They arise out of what Jesus Christ legally achieved and finalized at Calvary (Phase II). The cross purchased both the removal of God's wrath and the eventual regeneration of the sinner's heart.

Look at how beautifully the pronouns lock this down. Who is the "Us" in 2 Corinthians 5:18?

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;”
The "Us" of 2 Corinthians 5:18 is perfectly consistent with the "We" of Romans 5:10. The word katallasso is identical in both places. The ones who are brought into gospel peace are the exact same numbered company who were legally reconciled while they were still dirty, hostile enemies.

This is the true identity of the "world" in 2 Corinthians 5:19—an international world of elect men and women out of every nation, whose natural enmity has been completely conquered, ensuring they are experimentally brought into sweet fellowship and friendship with the Triune God. Christ did not make a potential truce; He accomplished a total victory. To Him alone be all the glory!

 

[brightfame52]

Reconciled to God by the death of His Son while Enemies !

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Reconciled to God, by Christs death, while being Enemies, even enemies in our minds by wicked works Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

That's right, even while being alienated, estranged from God by nature and in nature, those Christ died for were reconciled to God by His death.

Now this is a Truth about Grace that the natural man cannot and will not receive, being void of the Spirit of God, it is foolishness to him, even a great stumblingblock !

You see it does mean, while those for whom Christ died are in themselves rebellious against God, they have been nevertheless reconciled or received into Gods Favor/Grace, which implies they have no sin, or iniquities, trespasses charged against them before God, for all these must be taken away, in order for God to receive us into His Favor/Reconciliation !

The word reconciled in Rom 5:10 is the greek word katallassō and means:

1. to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
2. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
3. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
4. to receive one into favour

So we know that their sins , iniquities have been removed because they cause separation from God as stated here Isa 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Christ's death does away with that separation and reconciles God to them into His Favor and Blessing ! This separation is done away with for them in the fact of Jesus Christ their Surety !

Both Parties are reconciled, God to them, they to God by the Perfect Law obedience they have imputed to them through Christ's Obedience Rom 5:19, and all this is True while they themselves are in a state of nature children of wrath as others Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. See Col 1:21 !

 

[brightfame52]

They shall be also saved by His Life !

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This is one scripture with the Truth it contains, it assures us that Christ did not die for the sins of all mankind, unless all mankind shall be saved by His Life ! And we know the bible does not teach that all mankind without exception shall be saved by the Life of Christ !

However we know from this scripture : Those Christ died for were, while yet being enemies/unbelievers, reconciled to God ! How ? By the Death of His Son, that's how !

Now this being reconciled to God by His Sons death denotes forgiveness of sins, and here's why !

The word reconciled here katallassō and its the same word Paul uses in 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And this reconciliation consists of non imputation of their sins, which is forgiveness of sins according to scripture Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


So those in the world of 2 Cor 5:19, because of non imputation of their trespasses unto them, they are most blessedly forgiven and reconciled to God Rom 5:10, which is solely by the death of Christ for them, not because of their repentance, or believing, because it occurred while they were still being enemies ! 11

 

[brightfame52]

They Shall Be Also Saved by His Life! 2​

Romans 5:10 makes a remarkable distinction:

“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

Notice Paul's order.

First:

“We were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”

Then:

“Being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

The reconciliation accomplished by Christ's death took place while those reconciled were still enemies. Yet, as enemies by nature, they were still spiritually dead and needed to be given spiritual life.

Reconciled While Still Spiritually Dead​

Ephesians 2 describes the natural spiritual condition of those who are later quickened:

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.”
— Ephesians 2:1

And again:

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).”
— Ephesians 2:5

Therefore, those Christ reconciled by His death were reconciled while they were still, in their natural experience:

enemies,

unbelievers,

and

dead in trespasses and sins.

This is the significance of Romans 5:10.

Their reconciliation was not first produced by their repentance.

It was not first produced by their faith.

Paul explicitly says:

“When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”

The reconciliation was accomplished by Christ's death.

But the Reconciled Still Need Life​

Those reconciled by Christ's death still need to be delivered from their state of spiritual death.

That is why Paul continues:

“Much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

The promise is certain.

Those who were reconciled by His death:

shall be saved by His life.

This salvation includes deliverance from the spiritual death in which they existed while enemies.

Christ's death reconciled them to God.

Christ's life saves them from their condition of spiritual death.

The Last Adam Is a Life-Giving Spirit​

Paul writes:

1 Corinthians 15:45

“The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”

Christ, the last Adam, is the life-giving One.

The first Adam brought his posterity into a condition of death.

But the last Adam gives life to those represented by Him.

Christ did not merely die for His people.

He rose again.

And His resurrection life is the source of their spiritual life.

This is why those reconciled by His death have the sure promise:

“We shall be saved by his life.”

The risen Christ gives life to those who were spiritually dead.

His Resurrection Life Becomes Their Life​

Paul connects the resurrection of Christ with the new life of His people:

Romans 6:4–5

“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

And:

“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.”

Christ died.

Christ rose.

And those united to Him participate in the benefits of both His death and His resurrection.

His death reconciles.

His risen life gives life.

Therefore, the people represented in Romans 5:10 are not merely left in their original state after reconciliation.

The promise continues:

“Being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

They shall be brought out of spiritual death into life.

Saved Out of Their Former State of Enmity​

This is the glorious certainty of Romans 5:10.

Those reconciled to God while they were enemies shall not remain permanently in that state of spiritual death and enmity.

Christ lives.

And because He lives, they shall be saved by His life.

The risen Christ, as the life-giving Spirit, gives spiritual life to those for whom His death accomplished reconciliation.

Thus the order is:

Reconciled by His death while enemies.

Then:

Saved by His life out of their spiritual death and former condition of enmity.

This saving work is reflected in Ephesians 2:5:

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ.”

And again in Titus 3:5:

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

The salvation of spiritually dead sinners involves regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

They are given life.

They are brought from spiritual death into spiritual life.

The Necessary Conclusion​

Romans 5:10 does not describe a reconciliation that may ultimately fail to result in salvation.

Paul says:

“When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”

Then he adds:

“Much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

The same people who were reconciled by His death are the people who shall be saved by His life.

Therefore, according to this argument, two things are inseparably connected for those Christ represented:

1. They are reconciled to God by His death.​

2. They shall be saved by His risen life.​

Christ's death does not reconcile one group while His life saves only part of that group.

The people reconciled by His death are the people Paul says:

“shall be saved by his life.”

So how can Christ have died in the same reconciling sense for all mankind without exception when all mankind without exception are not:

1. Reconciled to God by His death, and

2. Saved from spiritual death by His life?

Romans 5:10 joins Christ's death and life together.

His death reconciles those whom it represents.

His life saves those already reconciled.

The risen Christ is:

“a quickening spirit.”

Therefore, those reconciled by His death have the certain promise of salvation by His life.

The reconciled, while they were enemies, shall be saved from that former state of spiritual death and enmity by the life of the risen Christ.

And if Christ's death actually reconciled a people to God, His living power will not fail to bring those same people into spiritual life.

Reconciled by His death.

Saved by His life.

Dead in sins, but made alive together with Christ.