WHAT IS MEANT IN HEBREWS SAYING THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS?

[GodsGrace]

What I had in mind here was that Paul's model for "Justification through Faith" was Genesis 15:6. The key point is Abe trusted God, which necessarily means believing God. However, trust and belief are not completely synonymous; you may believe someone who says they intend to torture and kill you; that doesn't mean you trust them.

Your Hebrews 3:18-19 reference puts another aspect of πιστεύω into play.

Don't know that Greek word you posted.
But if you know Greek,,,
you know that I'm correct about the word BELIEVE.

If everyone understood this the debate over whether or not good works are necessary
would end right now.

 

[Lambano]

It clearly states PRACTICES sin....
which is a life-style,
not a one time sin.

"Practices sin" is the NASB translation, which is typical of most modern translations. The KJV and Douay-Rheims say "commit sin".

The Greek just says poiei ou hamartian (literally, "does not do sin"), where poiei (to do, to make) is in the present tense. The Greek present tense (rather like the English) implies that something started in the past and is still ongoing. Modern translators (NKJV doesn't count as "modern") are well aware of the logical contradiction with 1 John 1:8 (and the pastoral issues when a believer discovers he's been sold a bill of goods and still struggles with sin) and tend to use some form of the word "practices" to imply ongoing sin.

It's justifiable from a linguistic standpoint; it may not be the sense the author intended.

 

[Lambano]

Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

So much for eternal security.

 

[amigo de christo]

Dan

WE ALL AGREE that those believing IN VAIN are not saved.
WE ALL AGREE on the meaning of vain...to one degree or another.

Get up to date!

Waiting on my prize money.

and now a word that would have put the fear of GOD into many , if they had not followed another jesus and thus another god .
But here is that word anyway .
What do it mean IN VAIN . Well if one claims to BELEIVE IN JESUS their belief is vain
IF THEY BELIEVE NOT THE WORDS OF JESUS .
and that IS A SOLID FACT . what ceased the entrance of Israel INTO the promised land .
IT was not because they said HEY WE DONT BELEIVE IN GOD . no it was because they did not BELIEVE HIM .
You wanna know h ow simple it is to see if one t ruly has their faith in JESUS THE CHRIST .
YA BRING ALL HIS TEACHINGS . Those who truly BELIEVE IN HIM would have simply BELIEVED
what JESUS said and OH YEAH what ALL of the apostels left for us to read in that b ible .
THEY WOULD HAVE BELEIVED . And why would t hey have BELIEVED .
FOR THIS CAUSE cam e i into the world and for this reason was i born
TO TESTIFY OF THE TRUTH .
GUESS what , EVERY WORD OF JESUS IS TRUTH . Every Word of GOD is T RUTH . and the SPIRIT did inspire
the apostels who also LEFT US LET TERS for to read and to learn .
I KNOW without a doubt what the problem is my near and dear friend .
AND THUS there is darn good reason WHY GOD once said CURSED is the man whose hope be in man
But BLESSED BE the man whose hope be in GOD .
They hope in scholars , popes , nar realm leaders , presidents , kings of this world .
WHO DO and WHO HAVE LED THEM ASTRAY and far from the TRUTH .
DOCTRINE MATTERS .
What UNITY we truly have matters . IS IT OF THE WORLD or is it OF GOD .
AND BY THE HOLY SCRIPTURES , BY THE POWER OF THE INDWELLING SPIRIT of GOD and of CHRIST
the sheep know and have the love of GOD shed upon their hearts .
And a lie , JUST DONT CUT IT for the sheep . TRUTH is o ur meat .

 

[GodsGrace]

"Practices sin" is the NASB translation, which is typical of most modern translations. The KJV and Douay-Rheims say "commit sin".

The Greek just says poiei ou hamartian (literally, "does not do sin"), where poiei (to do, to make) is in the present tense. The Greek present tense (rather like the English) implies that something started in the past and is still ongoing. Modern translators (NKJV doesn't count as "modern") are well aware of the logical contradiction with 1 John 1:8 (and the pastoral issues when a believer discovers he's been sold a bill of goods and still struggles with sin) and tend to use some form of the word "practices" to imply ongoing sin.

It's justifiable from a linguistic standpoint; it may not be the sense the author intended.

Surely it would create a problem UNLESS 1 J 3:9 meant PRACTICE...or any other way of saying that.
It would directly contradict 1 J 1:9

I DO believe that sometimes a word does need to be stated in the "modern" way.

It's like saying I'M GOING TO RETIRE
but meaning I'M GOING TO SLEEP and not the end of one's work life.
It would be acceptable to translate it the way those of the future would undersand it.

 

[GodsGrace]

So much for eternal security.

Not only the end of eternal security...
it's much worse.

HOW could any reformed/calvinist believer know for sure that they are really saved?

I can know I'm saved because I CHOOSE to be.
IF God does the choosing,,,,how do I know for certain that He chose me?

RC Sproul and John Piper are asked this frequently.
No need to ask this in the orthodox understanding of salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, RC is gone.

 

[amigo de christo]

Don't know that Greek word you posted.
But if you know Greek,,,
you know that I'm correct about the word BELIEVE.

If everyone understood this the debate over whether or not good works are necessary
would end right now.

i have to give out a kind spanky to you my friend .
A man or a woman can know what BELEIVE means and entials
whether they know hebrew , greek or any langauge .
And i simply cannot have you allowing trust in greek and or scholars to be allowed .
I dont know ONE WORD of g reek , nor one word of hebrew . I sat under no scholar
BUT i do know HE WHO SA VES and has REVEALED TRUTH unto ME .
Enough with this greek stuff , hebrew stuff , oh the english bibles are not accurate enough stuff .
WHY COME HOW COME i know and understand and You might wanna ask yourself
WHO is it amigo is always pointing us too . OL amigo dont preach langauges
nor do i point to any scholar . I DO POINT to JESUS and THE BASIC knowledge OF THE GOSPEL
and am adamant we do not veer off that course left to us FIRST BY CHRIST and later by the apostels .
And what ONE book , what only BOOK do i continually remind us all to be reading for ourselves
WITHOUT influence OF ANY DENOMAINTION to include THE RCC .
What BOOK s ister . what BOOK . THE BIBLE . this could have been a very very simple and clear to understand walk .
IF ONLY and i mean IF ONLY folks had learned that pattern left to us IN THE SCRIPS .
Heck most folks twist something JESUS said and even the apostels said . Not looking good at all .
SO if anyone here thinks i am but a raging mad man whose heart is so f ull of hate
WELL my advice is GET THINE rears in the seated position and YOU ALL OPEN the bible for yourselves
and READ IT for yourselves daily . THEN lets see how fast things could have been cleared up .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No.

Thank you!! I agree

 

[Eternally Grateful]

From what did they turn?

the knowledge of truth

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Don't know that Greek word you posted.
But if you know Greek,,,
you know that I'm correct about the word BELIEVE.

If everyone understood this the debate over whether or not good works are necessary
would end right now.

faith.

1. contrary to hope. in hope do we believe?
2. do we not waver at the promise to undbelief, but are we strengthened in faith giving God the glory?
3. are we fully convinced that what God promised, he can fulfill?

Abraham was.

Rom 4
18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.

and because of it. God imputed, or accounted to him, to him as righteousness.

does it includes works?

rom 4: 3 for what does the scripture say? “abraham believed god and he accounted it to him as righteousness.” 4 now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt 5 but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungoldy , his his faith is accounted for righteousness


rom 4: 16 therefore it if of faith that it may be according to grace , so that the promise may be sure to all the seed not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of abraham , who is the father of us all


rom 4: 23 now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us, it shall be imputed to us who believe in him who raised up Jesus our lord from the dead , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification


so yes I agree with our sister. If everyone knew what faith was. the debate about works would be over

 

[amigo de christo]

Not only the end of eternal security...
it's much worse.

HOW could any reformed/calvinist believer know for sure that they are really saved?

I can know I'm saved because I CHOOSE to be.
IF God does the choosing,,,,how do I know for certain that He chose me?

RC Sproul and John Piper are asked this frequently.
No need to ask this in the orthodox understanding of salvation.

How do I know i am saved . Well when i look in the mirror i KNOW
that man didnt save me . When i peep in that mirror I KNOW
that man will always need JESUS and that the only goodness i have IS OF GOD , IS OF CHRIST , IS THE HOLY SPIRIT within me .
I KNOW I AM S AVED , cause I BELEIVE JESUS DID EVERYTHING necessary for me TO BE SAVED .
I beleive HIS WORDS .
But what BOOK did THE ONE TRUE GOD put me into after drawing me TO JESUS .
AND the answer is THE BIBLE with A LOVE FOR THE TRUTH , FOR HIS WORDS , FOR GOD , FOR CHRIST above all .
Before mother , father , son daughter , or anything . GOD DID THAT .
GOD DID THAT . I Did not change me . GOD DID . I did not put new d esires in me , GOD DID .
And we had better all get ourselves back into that lovely bible for to learn and to be remi nded of TRUTH .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not only the end of eternal security...
it's much worse.

HOW could any reformed/calvinist believer know for sure that they are really saved?

I can know I'm saved because I CHOOSE to be.
IF God does the choosing,,,,how do I know for certain that He chose me?

RC Sproul and John Piper are asked this frequently.
No need to ask this in the orthodox understanding of salvation.

I know I am saved because I trust Gods promise
Because I am assured of Gods promise
Because I am confident that what God promised, he not only is able to do it. But he will do it.

Not because I am worthy, But because of his mercy

 

[mailmandan]

I saw it now.
He's agreeing with you!
But we'd have to check out WHEN he stated this.
Sometimes we misspeak.
He sure does say that vain means not saved NOW.

Never speak for the other member...rule no. 1
I broke a rule.


But I really do believe I'm right.
I guess I could ask.
Get the moolah ready.

We both agree that to believe in vain = not saved yet he believes the person who believed in vain previously believed and was saved and I believe the person who believed in vain never believed unto salvation from the start.

 

[Lambano]

Surely it would create a problem UNLESS 1 J 3:9 meant PRACTICE...or any other way of saying that.
It would directly contradict 1 J 1:9

No. You have to take into account how language is used, and how it serves the author's purposes.

One of my friends grew up in a well-to-do family, the son of a judge. He heard a lot of "Son, you're a Carrington*. We don't DO that." He could probably relate to what I'm saying. "Daughter, you are a child of God; we don't do that sort of thing." My own family name is associated with the ignominious behavior of a certain historical figure my grandmother claimed was from another branch of the family, so I never heard that sort of thing growing up. Maybe that's why others don't see it either.

*Pseudonym.

 

[GodsGrace]

the knowledge of truth

so before they turned they had the truth...
then they turned from it.

They turned from faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

faith.

1. contrary to hope. in hope do we believe?
2. do we not waver at the promise to undbelief, but are we strengthened in faith giving God the glory?
3. are we fully convinced that what God promised, he can fulfill?

Abraham was.

Rom 4
18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.

and because of it. God imputed, or accounted to him, to him as righteousness.

does it includes works?

rom 4: 3 for what does the scripture say? “abraham believed god and he accounted it to him as righteousness.” 4 now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but debt 5 but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungoldy , his his faith is accounted for righteousness


rom 4: 16 therefore it if of faith that it may be according to grace , so that the promise may be sure to all the seed not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of abraham , who is the father of us all


rom 4: 23 now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us, it shall be imputed to us who believe in him who raised up Jesus our lord from the dead , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification


so yes I agree with our sister. If everyone knew what faith was. the debate about works would be over

You're a tough cookiie!

 

[GodsGrace]

How often do you offer to give ladies you barely know a spanky?

If he knows them then it's OK?

 

[GodsGrace]

We both agree that to believe in vain = not saved yet he believes the person who believed in vain previously believed and was saved and I believe the person who believed in vain never believed unto salvation from the start.

I don't know Dan.
You may be right on this.

I did ask and I did get a reply.
And I don't see any moolah coming my way.
As a second prize...
how about you put on that flowery shirt and get on that horse??

 

[RLT63]

We both agree that to believe in vain = not saved yet he believes the person who believed in vain previously believed and was saved and I believe the person who believed in vain never believed unto salvation from the start.

They were not of us or they would have continued with us