Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[David in NJ]

I was speaking of christians prior to the pre-trib rapture. I agree, those that become the elect will face severe opposition.

So as of now, you are not part of the elect of God?

 

[CrowCross]

Are you planning on dying soon?

Not really.

That is the only way you will avoid seeing the Antichrist and The Mark.

You forgot about the pre-tribulation rapture of the bride of Christ.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

What is being gathered to Him? The gathering is something that occurs before the day of the Lord according to the bible verse you presented above.
You see the departure occurs...THEN...the anti-christ is free to act.
Then there is the next part of the verse you conveniently left out....Paul said the same thing but with different language so they could understand....but for some reason you refuse to understand.
The following verse speaks of the removal of the restrainer. The restrainer is the church acting through the Holy Spirit that is living in them. When the restrainer is removed...that is when the church is gathered as mentioned in verse 1 and the departure happens....or, when the restrainer is removed the antichrist moves unhampered.

The "gathering"...."departure"...and "removal of the restrainer" ...is the same event. You can read more about this event in 1 Thes 4.

Sunday School dismissed.

 

[David in NJ]

Not really.

You forgot about the pre-tribulation rapture of the bride of Christ.

What is being gathered to Him? Something that occurs before the day of the Lord according to your bible verse above.
You see the departure occurs...THEN...the anti-christ is free to act.
Then there is the next part of the verse you conveniently left out....Paul said the same thing but with different language so they could understand....but for some reason you refuse to understand.
The following verse speaks of the removal of the restrainer. The restrainer is the church acting through the Holy Spirit that is living in them. When the restrainer is removed...that is when the church is gathered as mentioned in verse 1 and the departure happens....or, when the restrainer is removed the antichrist moves unhampered.

The "gathering"...."departure"...and "removal of the restrainer" ...is the same event. You can read more about this event in 1 Thes 4.

Sunday School dismissed.

You, and all who hold to the error of pre-trib will remain on this earth until one of Two Events:
a.) you physically die
b.) you survive the Mark and are here at His Coming

The Holy Spirit speaking thru the Apostle Paul clearly states: "that day(our gathering) will not come until the man of sin is revealed.
JESUS Prophesied this in His Gospel
Apostle John also prophesied this.
FIVE Witnesses Declare post-trib Resurrection followed by the rapture

pre-trib rapture is of satan = it is a 100% lie as it speaks directly against CHRIST's Prophecy, the Apostles and the OT Prophets

 

[WPM]

You, and all who hold to the error of pre-trib will remain on this earth until one of Two Events:
a.) you physically die
b.) you survive the Mark and are here at His Coming

The Holy Spirit speaking thru the Apostle Paul clearly states: "that day(our gathering) will not come until the man of sin is revealed.
JESUS Prophesied this in His Gospel
Apostle John also prophesied this.
FIVE Witnesses Declare post-trib Resurrection followed by the rapture

pre-trib rapture is of satan = it is a 100% lie as it speaks directly against CHRIST's Prophecy, the Apostles and the OT Prophets

It doesn't matter what the Book says, what they have been taught matters more.

 

[CrowCross]

So as of now, you are not part of the elect of God?

Yes I am part of the elect....not the tribulation elect.

You, and all who hold to the error of pre-trib will remain on this earth until one of Two Events:
a.) you physically die
b.) you survive the Mark and are here at His Coming

No, that's your error. We've been over the reason as to why you error many times....and you don't seem to want to learn

The Holy Spirit speaking thru the Apostle Paul clearly states: "that day(our gathering) will not come until the man of sin is revealed.

No, the bible says after the gathering. 2 Thes 2 tells us they can know the day of the Lord hasn't started because the gathering hasn't happened.
The verse goes on to say.... For that day will not come, unless the rebellion "departure" comes first....did you notice the verse says...COMES FIRST? Then..."and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction"

The rapture occurs first...the restrainer is removed first....and then the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed,

JESUS Prophesied this in His Gospel
Apostle John also prophesied this.
FIVE Witnesses Declare post-trib Resurrection followed by the rapture

5 witnesses????

pre-trib rapture is of satan = it is a 100% lie as it speaks directly against CHRIST's Prophecy, the Apostles and the OT Prophets

Why would a pretrib -rapture be of Satan? Those who hold onto this belief realize the return of Jesus is eminent and should step up their game. Why would Satan want the church to step up their game?

 

[CrowCross]

It doesn't matter what the Book says, what they have been taught matters more.

You sound like the guy who buried his talent.

 

[WPM]

You sound like the guy who buried his talent.

Ad hominem and avoidance are the 2 main online Pretrib attributes. They cannot engage in biblical discussion. Sad! If you were confident that Scripture taught what you do, it could face scrutiny. But it cannot.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes I am part of the elect....not the tribulation elect.

No, that's your error. We've been over the reason as to why you error many times....and you don't seem to want to learn

No, the bible says after the gathering. 2 Thes 2 tells us they can know the day of the Lord hasn't started because the gathering hasn't happened.
The verse goes on to say.... For that day will not come, unless the rebellion "departure" comes first....did you notice the verse says...COMES FIRST? Then..."and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction"

The rapture occurs first...the restrainer is removed first....and then the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed,

5 witnesses????

Why would a pretrib -rapture be of Satan? Those who hold onto this belief realize the return of Jesus is eminent and should step up their game. Why would Satan want the church to step up their game?

You answer all "no" to the words/Prophecy of Christ and the Apostles.

You will stay that way until the Antichrist and his Mark.

If you harden your heart even further and stay in denial you will be under great confusion and vulnerable to taking the Mark,
since you would be denying it is the Mark.

i have heard the false prophets preaching these words: "If we are still here on earth, then it is not the Mark and safe to take it".

 

[David in NJ]

It doesn't matter what the Book says, what they have been taught matters more.

Sad but true

 

[David in NJ]

5 witnesses????

At least FIVE
1.) JESUS
2.) HOLY SPIRIT
3.) Apostle Paul
4.) Apostle John
5.) Noah
6.) Daniel

Why would a pretrib -rapture be of Satan? Those who hold onto this belief realize the return of Jesus is eminent and should step up their game. Why would Satan want the church to step up their game?

Satan has successfully sold the lie of pre-trib to the Church = in doing so the church is asleep, placing their trust on a false prophecy.

Remember - JESUS Said so!!!

Had the church REPENTED and submitted to the Holy Scriptures, they would of been OUT-SPOKEN against MANY unconstitutional laws.
Especially the Data Centers.

 

[CrowCross]

You answer all "no" to the words/Prophecy of Christ and the Apostles.

????

You will stay that way until the Antichrist and his Mark.

Do you know what the mark is? Do you know what the beast system is?

If you harden your heart even further and stay in denial you will be under great confusion and vulnerable to taking the Mark,
since you would be denying it is the Mark.

Harden my heart??? It appears you don't have ears to hear.

i have heard the false prophets preaching these words: "If we are still here on earth, then it is not the Mark and safe to take it".

Once again, do you know what the mark is...and why you'll more than likely take it if you go through the tribulation?

 

[WPM]

????

Do you know what the mark is? Do you know what the beast system is?

Harden my heart??? It appears you don't have ears to hear.

Once again, do you know what the mark is...and why you'll more than likely take it if you go through the tribulation?

Apart from misrepresenting the book of Revelation, what other Scripture do you have the teaches a rapture of the church followed by a prolonged tribulation period?

 

[David in NJ]

????

Do you know what the mark is? Do you know what the beast system is?

Harden my heart??? It appears you don't have ears to hear.

Once again, do you know what the mark is...and why you'll more than likely take it if you go through the tribulation?

Saying "no" , "i do not believe you" to JESUS Prophecy will surely get you the Mark

JESUS Says Very CLEAR & LOUD

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, I agree. I think we have access to new Jerusalem which is in new heaven new earth right now.
Do you see new heaven new earth existing at the same time as old heaven old earth? (I think old heaven old earth represents old covenant).
Some people argue that old heaven old earth must be gone prior to new heaven new earth.

I'm not sure on that, I'm still working through that.

One possibility I'm looking at is that OT saints experienced a type of heaven before the cross, then entered a new heaven after it. And there were major earth upheavals at the cross that aren't mentioned in history and only found in Psalm 18 and 2 Samuel 22.

I wish I could say more but I try not talk much about things I haven't fully vetted yet.

 

[grafted branch]

I'm not sure on that, I'm still working through that.

I probably should’ve been a little clearer on my post. If old heaven and old earth is synonymous with the old covenant and new heaven new earth with the new covenant then based on Hebrews 8:13 the old covenant didn’t vanish at the cross. So we would have a period of time when both old heaven old earth and new heaven new earth exist simultaneously, for a generation.

An interesting thing is that people can exit the old heaven old earth but there are no scriptural references to anyone leaving the new heaven new earth or new Jerusalem.

One possibility I'm looking at is that OT saints experienced a type of heaven before the cross, then entered a new heaven after it. And there were major earth upheavals at the cross that aren't mentioned in history and only found in Psalm 18 and 2 Samuel 22.

Thanks for that, it’s not something I have considered, I’ll take a look.

Something you might be interested in, I don’t fully agree with it but it seemed interesting to me, that I heard from an Amill some time ago, has a symmetry between Jesus and Satan. This view only mentions a future new heaven new earth but maybe it could be of some use, I don’t know.



This view, as I understand it, has both Jesus and Satan initially having access to heaven and earth, then we see both Jesus and Satan on earth as seen when Jesus is tempted by Satan. Then the time comes when both Jesus and Satan are seen as part man part spirit (Satan enters Judas being symmetrical to Jesus being both man and God).

Both Jesus and Judas die, leaving Satan in Sheol/bottomless pit while Jesus is raised from the dead and goes to heaven. Currently the symmetry would be Jesus in heaven and Satan in the bottomless pit, at a future point the symmetry will be Satan released from and leaving the pit symmetrical to the return of Christ or Christ leaving heaven. This then will be followed by the symmetry of Christ in new heaven new earth and Satan in the lake of fire.

 

[WPM]

You sound like the guy who buried his talent.

I probably should’ve been a little clearer on my post. If old heaven and old earth is synonymous with the old covenant and new heaven new earth with the new covenant then based on Hebrews 8:13 the old covenant didn’t vanish at the cross. So we would have a period of time when both old heaven old earth and new heaven new earth exist simultaneously, for a generation.

An interesting thing is that people can exit the old heaven old earth but there are no scriptural references to anyone leaving the new heaven new earth or new Jerusalem.


Thanks for that, it’s not something I have considered, I’ll take a look.

Something you might be interested in, I don’t fully agree with it but it seemed interesting to me, that I heard from an Amill some time ago, has a symmetry between Jesus and Satan. This view only mentions a future new heaven new earth but maybe it could be of some use, I don’t know.



This view, as I understand it, has both Jesus and Satan initially having access to heaven and earth, then we see both Jesus and Satan on earth as seen when Jesus is tempted by Satan. Then the time comes when both Jesus and Satan are seen as part man part spirit (Satan enters Judas being symmetrical to Jesus being both man and God).

Both Jesus and Judas die, leaving Satan in Sheol/bottomless pit while Jesus is raised from the dead and goes to heaven. Currently the symmetry would be Jesus in heaven and Satan in the bottomless pit, at a future point the symmetry will be Satan released from and leaving the pit symmetrical to the return of Christ or Christ leaving heaven. This then will be followed by the symmetry of Christ in new heaven new earth and Satan in the lake of fire.

That seems a bit forced. While Satan was banished from heaven, before creation, he had access to heaven, after the fall because of Adam. While Satan was placed in the bottomless pit, after he was bound by the earthly ministry of Christ, he still functioned on earth. What is more, Satan is released for a little season before the coming of the Lord. Christ remains in heaven.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

Is it all of Christ bride....just the worthy of Christ bride....just those that are looking for Jesus coming?

Currently I'm of the opinion all christians are raptured.

Thoughts?????

The Bible does NOT support "pre-tribulation rapture". Christ will come on the Last Day at the Last Trump "after the tribulation". Period. It is because you got the timing of 1,000 year millennial and 7 years "tribulation" period all wrong.

On the Last Day, Christ will bring all believers who have died before the last day, and will gather those who are still alive and remain to meet with Lord in the Air. After this, we will ever be with the Lord forever! No time for 7 years or 1,000 years nonsenses.

 

[grafted branch]

That seems a bit forced. While Satan was banished from heaven, before creation, he had access to heaven, after the fall because of Adam. While Satan was placed in the bottomless pit, after he was bound by the earthly ministry of Christ, he still functioned on earth. What is more, Satan is released for a little season before the coming of the Lord. Christ remains in heaven.

Well sure, I’m not arguing for that position and I see the points you’re making. I had an Amill friend give me that view but I don’t think there are very many others that hold that view.

Here’s the thing though, if someone does have a view that can show some kind of symmetry that holds true throughout the Bible, then that view would appear to be superior to other views that don’t have that kind of harmony. I remember my friend saying he could easily spot false interpretations when they broke the symmetry. He would point out the Premil millennium not having the symmetry between Jesus and Satan.