Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[IndianaRob]

Only because he did not know for sure if it would happen during his life or not.

Paul being inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote exactly what the Holy Spirit intended and it was done for a reason.

 

[WPM]

Absolutely.

For the first time in mankind's history we have the technology to fulfill that prophecy.

Oh. So, the mark of God upon the believers in Revelation (3:12, 7:3, 4 (x2), 5 (x3), 6 (x3), 7 (x3), 8 (x3), 9:4, 14:1, 22:4) is literal?

 

[WPM]

i have the Promises from Genesis

About what? Stop talking so evasively and vaguely. Are you scared of your doctrine being examined?

 

[WPM]

It's the only time frame left.
If Satan walked in the Garden in an un-fallen state then it must have been after God planted the garden.
I think its would be safe to assume Satan had fallen before He tempted Eve and Adam ate the fruit.

How long was it between when the garden was made and Adam fell....we don't know.

Jesus said in John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

The phase "the beginning" typically refers to the beginning of creation and earth. Just like the regeneration when Jesus comes refers to "the end" of creation and earth as we know it. Every solid theologian I know believes that Satan rebelled and fell before the beginning of creation and earth. He was a leader of the angelic host in. heaven.

When Jesus said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, He was not saying that Satan was a murderer from the moment he was created. He was saying that Satan was a murderer from the beginning of creation. The enemy of our souls had already fallen and rebelled against God before that.

 

[doctrox]

Yes it does mean going to heaven to be with the Lord.

Incorrect. The cloud is not the place where believers will live with him forever.

This is easy; take a look at all 22 verses that contain "cloud".

Paul being inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote exactly what the Holy Spirit intended and it was done for a reason.

God didn't "inspire" any man; rather, God inspired his word.

Here we see the problem generated by man's textual "criticism." Many of you believe that God inspired men to write God's words and, therefore, 'we better make certain we have “scholars” and “credentialed” “EXPERTS” doing the writing.'

This is why there is the push for 'bigger and better bibles,' that appear "pleasing to the eyes" and "to make one wise," that come with the highest recommendations of the 'scholars' who offer periodic "updates" of their findings to their yes-men and other subscribers. It also explains why those modern versions of the Holy Bible must be copyrighted -- they are not an inspired work of God but works of men who claim owner$hip of them.

We will speak casually for a moment. Let’s take a look at the relevant passage:

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 3:15-17 AV

Notice that even a child understands the holy scriptures -- no middlemen wanna-be ‘scholars’ required!

Notice that it is God who gives scripture -- not man. Man does not even feature in this passage.

Notice that the purpose of God giving to man, God’s inspired scripture, is so “that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

Notice how God gives scripture -- by inspiration. However, nowhere does it say that God inspired men! “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” God’s Spirit (i.e. inspiration) is the vehicle with which God ‘gives all scripture’ -- God does not give scripture via any man, or by inspiring any man, or by any other means. Thus, God’s scripture has life -- it is alive, it is the living Spirit-filled words of God. Conversely, man does not have life; outside of God, man is dead. Yes, man has breath, but mere breath is not life; God’s Spirit is life. The words of men are mere breaths; whereas God’s word is Life itself. The reality of the inspiration of scripture has no connection with any efforts of man.

This living quality of scripture puzzles those who are not born again. It even puzzles those who are born again but who have had their thought processes impaired by spiritual deception.

If wannabe scholars could shift their burden from God's "inspired," "pure" and "preserved" word to man's intellect, then they could proceed to build their ivory towers. Don’t let them deceive you by their attempts to shift the inspiration of God’s living Spirit-filled words to man’s mere breath. For example, the next time you hear, “only the ‘Hebrew and Greek’ is the inspired text,” you’ll know the truth of the matter.

God's pattern has always been the same: He gives the COMMON man the COMMON bible in the COMMON language of the day, to do one thing -- evangelize the world.

 

[Taken]

Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

Is it all of Christ bride....just the worthy of Christ bride....just those that are looking for Jesus coming?

Currently I'm of the opinion all christians are raptured.

Thoughts?????

Gods Word, Came forth out of Gods Mouth, in a Body God Prepared, Descended From the Heaven Above the Heavens, And was Sent to Earth, to Mary’s Womb.

The Lord Jesus, Returned to the Heaven Above the Heavens.

Before the Tribulations / Wrath Sent down From Heaven …

The following: IS the Only Event Called;
The Rapture (ie. The Lord Redeeming (His saved, His church)

The Lord Shall (and His Angels) Descend to the Lower Heavens and “command His Arch-Angel” to call up to The Lord…
EXPRESSLY——>
All Whom Christ the Lord Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened….

That “They” Shall meet Him, face to face, See Him as He IS,
AND
Thus forth be With Him Wherever He IS…

AND
From “THERE”, He / His Angels / His Saved and Quickened shall Return To Earth, And He shall claim His Throne and Promised Land/ Kingdom…

AND He Shall…
Rule over His Kingdom, and Mortals kingdoms, For 1,000 years…

THEREAFTER… more events to transpire.

Glory To God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Incorrect. The cloud is not the place where believers will live with him forever.

Correct.
After Judgement.
A new Heaven and new Earth merge…
The Saved / Quickened Shall live On a “new Earth and new Heaven” that is One Place.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ewq1938]

Paul being inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote exactly what the Holy Spirit intended and it was done for a reason.

That would mean the HS was wrong since Paul did not see the second coming/resurrection/rapture.

The HS taught Paul many things but Paul also wrote his own things in his letters.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Are there spirit beings on earth that we cannot see with our physical eyes?

YES

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus said in John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

The phase "the beginning" typically refers to the beginning of creation and earth. Just like the regeneration when Jesus comes refers to "the end" of creation and earth as we know it. Every solid theologian I know believes that Satan rebelled and fell before the beginning of creation and earth. He was a leader of the angelic host in. heaven.

When Jesus said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, He was not saying that Satan was a murderer from the moment he was created. He was saying that Satan was a murderer from the beginning of creation. The enemy of our souls had already fallen and rebelled against God before that.

With all due respect....YOU LOST THE DEBATE.

NEXT

 

[TribulationSigns]

There is no "pre-tribulation rapture."

Good.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 The. 4:7)

BTW, remain = survive

Well, not quite correct. The phrase “we which are alive and remain” does not mean Christians who merely survive something or escape some particular event.

Paul is referring to the remaining living Elect—those Chosen ones who are still physically alive on earth when Christ returns. They are contrasted with the believers who have already died, whom Paul says will be raised first.

So the meaning is essentially: the Elect who are still alive and remain on earth at Christ’s coming will be caught up together with the resurrected saints to meet the Lord in the air.

The word “remain” does not by itself establish the idea of “surviving” some tribulation or catastrophe. The context is about the distinction between the dead in Christ and the living Elect who are still here when the Lord descends from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:13–17).

However, the big takeaway is that "clouds" does NOT mean heaven. Being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord does NOT mean going to heaven with the Lord.

I agree with one part of your point: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not explicitly say that the saints will “go back to heaven with Christ.” But I would also caution against assuming that the “clouds” are merely literal meteorological clouds.

Throughout Scripture, clouds are repeatedly associated with God’s presence, glory, and divine manifestation. For example:

• Exodus 13:21 — God leads Israel in a pillar of cloud, signifying His presence.
• Exodus 40:34–35 — the cloud covers the tabernacle, and the glory of the LORD fills it.
• Matthew 17:5 — a bright cloud overshadows the disciples at Christ's transfiguration, and the Father speaks from the cloud.
• Acts 1:9 — Christ is taken up, and a cloud receives Him from their sight.
• Revelation 14:14 — Christ is pictured sitting upon a white cloud at His coming.

Therefore, when Paul says the living Elect will be “caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), the emphasis is not on taking a trip to a particular location called “heaven.” The imagery points to meeting Christ in His glorious divine presence at His coming.

And notice Paul's conclusion: “and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The ultimate promise is not about the geographic destination of the saints, but that they will be forever with Christ in his Glory (clouds).

So I would say: the text does not teach, “Christ comes down, we meet Him in literal clouds, and then He takes us back to heaven.” That idea has to be imported into the passage. Paul simply says that the dead in Christ who have already been raised and the the Lord when they dead before us, and when Christ comes, they will come down with Him. The living Elect who are STILL ALIVE AND REMAIN on Earth at His coming will then be caught up together to meet with the Lord and the resurrected Saints in the air. From that point onward, all the Elect will forever be with the Lord.

 

[WPM]

With all due respect....YOU LOST THE DEBATE.

NEXT

LOL. You are completely incapable of supporting any of your beliefs or answering any questions. When you are caught on you run - as you are now. Checkmate!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes it does mean going to heaven to be with the Lord.

No, it does not. Please read the passage carefully:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul does not say that our destination will be "heaven" if you are thinking about present Heaven. No, He says that the dead in Christ will be raised first, and then the living Elect who remain on earth at Christ’s coming will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord IN THE AIR.

From that point onward, we will forever be with the Lord. We will not return to present heaven, or even come back to sin-cursed Earth, because our final dwelling is not this present Old Earth or Old Heaven, because Scripture teaches that they will pass away. Our ultimate home is the New Heaven and New Earth, where God will dwell with His people forever.

Revelation 21:1–3
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away... Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them.”

So the focus of 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 is not, “We are caught up to the air then come back to heaven and remain there.” The focus is that all the Elect—those resurrected from the dead and those still alive at Christ’s coming—will be gathered together to meet Christ in the air and will forever be with Him, ultimately dwelling with God in the New Heaven and New Earth, after Satan and all the wicked will be cast into Lake of Fire then the present Earth and present Heaven will pass away. Then we will end up in New Heaven and New Earth forever.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL all you want....You see...it doesn't matter if the epistle of Barnabas is part of scripture.

Oh, really? That is where your problem begun.

IT'S WHAT THEY BELIEVED.

That means your doctrines build upon on what they believe instead of the Word of God. Bad move. That does not sounds like you are studying like a Berean.

They believed in a literal 1,000 years!!!

I do not care what they believe. I tested their doctrine with Scripture if it is so -- something that you should be doing.

You can start here....
1 Genesis 20:16: Abimelech gives Abraham a literal thousand pieces of silver to compensate Sarah.

2 Numbers 31:4-5: Moses commands that one thousand men from each of the twelve tribes of Israel be sent to war, making a literal total of 12,000 armed soldiers.

3 Judges 15:15: Samson uses the jawbone of a donkey to strike down exactly 1,000 Philistine men.

4 Judges 16:5: The Philistine rulers each offer Delilah 1,000 pieces of silver (plus an extra 100) to betray Samson.

5 Song of Solomon 8:11: Vineyard renters pay a strict economic rent of 1,000 pieces of silver for its fruit.

6 Isaiah 7:23: A historical economic measure describing a place where there used to be "1,000 vines worth 1,000 silver shekels."

7 Song of Solomon 8:11: Vineyard renters pay a strict economic rent of 1,000 pieces of silver for its fruit.

8 2 Samuel 18:12: A soldier refuses to harm Absalom even if someone handed him 1,000 pieces of silver right into his hands.

9 1 Kings 3:5: King Solomon travels to Gibeon and offers a massive, literal sacrifice of 1,000 burnt offerings on the altar.

10 Revelation 20:2-7: The thousand-year reign of Christ.

You can certainly show many places in Scripture where 1,000 refers to a literal quantity, but that does not prove that the “1,000 years” in Revelation 20 must therefore be a literal 1,000 calendar years. That is a category error. The meaning of a number must be determined by its context, literary genre, and how the surrounding imagery is used.

Revelation is filled with symbolic imagery. For example:

• Revelation 5:6 — John sees a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes. Are we expecting a literal Lamb in heaven with seven physical eyes and seven horns? No. The imagery communicates spiritual realities.
• Revelation 9:7–10 — John sees locusts with the appearance of horses, crowns, human faces, women's hair, lions' teeth, and tails like scorpions. Are these literal locusts with human faces and women's hair? Obviously not. The imagery is symbolic.
• Revelation 12:3 — a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Again, this is symbolic imagery, not a literal zoological creature.
• Revelation 17:9–10 — the seven heads are explicitly interpreted symbolically as seven mountains and seven kings.

So why should we suddenly abandon the symbolic nature of Revelation when we arrive at the “thousand years” in Revelation 20?

The issue is not whether the number 1,000 can ever be literal. Of course it can. Genesis 20, Numbers 31, Judges 15, and the other passages you listed demonstrate that. But those passages are describing ordinary historical quantities in contexts where a literal number is appropriate.

Revelation 20 is a completely different context. It belongs to a highly symbolic prophetic vision. The question therefore is not, “Can 1,000 ever mean a literal number?” The question is, “What does 1,000 signify in this particular vision?”

Biblically, 1,000 can function as a symbolic expression of fullness, completeness, or a vast/complete quantity. For example:

Psalm 50:10 — “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.”

Does God own the cattle on exactly 1,000 hills but somehow not the cattle on hill 1,001? Of course not. The “thousand hills” expresses the fullness of God's possession.

Psalm 105:8 speaks of God's covenant being commanded “to a thousand generations.” The point is not to establish a mathematical limit after which God's covenant ceases. The number conveys the enduring fullness of God's covenant faithfulness.

Therefore, we should not make the mistake of saying, “1,000 is literal in these nine passages, therefore it must be literal in Revelation 20.” That is no more sound than saying, “The Lamb is literal in one passage, therefore the Lamb with seven eyes and seven horns in Revelation 5 must be a literal seven-eyed animal.”

The context determines the meaning.

And that is precisely why Revelation 20 must be interpreted in harmony with the rest of Revelation and the New Testament. The “thousand years” represents the full, complete period of Christ's present reign, during which Satan is restrained from deceiving the nations in the particular sense described in Revelation 20, while Christ reigns with His saints.

So the real issue is not whether I am willing to take Scripture literally. I am willing to take Scripture exactly as it was given. When Scripture is speaking historically and literally, we understand it literally. When Scripture gives us symbolic visions, we must recognize the symbols and allow Scripture itself to explain them.

Literalism is not the same thing as biblical interpretation. Context, genre, symbolism, and the analogy of Scripture matter.

You have alot to learn to mediate on this with Lord, bud.