Paul being inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote exactly what the Holy Spirit intended and it was done for a reason.
Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?
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Oh. So, the mark of God upon the believers in Revelation (3:12, 7:3, 4 (x2), 5 (x3), 6 (x3), 7 (x3), 8 (x3), 9:4, 14:1, 22:4) is literal?
About what? Stop talking so evasively and vaguely. Are you scared of your doctrine being examined?
Jesus said in John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”
The phase "the beginning" typically refers to the beginning of creation and earth. Just like the regeneration when Jesus comes refers to "the end" of creation and earth as we know it. Every solid theologian I know believes that Satan rebelled and fell before the beginning of creation and earth. He was a leader of the angelic host in. heaven.
When Jesus said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, He was not saying that Satan was a murderer from the moment he was created. He was saying that Satan was a murderer from the beginning of creation. The enemy of our souls had already fallen and rebelled against God before that.
Incorrect. The cloud is not the place where believers will live with him forever.
God didn't "inspire" any man; rather, God inspired his word.
Here we see the problem generated by man's textual "criticism." Many of you believe that God inspired men to write God's words and, therefore, 'we better make certain we have “scholars” and “credentialed” “EXPERTS” doing the writing.'
This is why there is the push for 'bigger and better bibles,' that appear "pleasing to the eyes" and "to make one wise," that come with the highest recommendations of the 'scholars' who offer periodic "updates" of their findings to their yes-men and other subscribers. It also explains why those modern versions of the Holy Bible must be copyrighted -- they are not an inspired work of God but works of men who claim owner$hip of them.
We will speak casually for a moment. Let’s take a look at the relevant passage:
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 3:15-17 AV
Notice that even a child understands the holy scriptures -- no middlemen wanna-be ‘scholars’ required!
Notice that it is God who gives scripture -- not man. Man does not even feature in this passage.
Notice that the purpose of God giving to man, God’s inspired scripture, is so “that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
Notice how God gives scripture -- by inspiration. However, nowhere does it say that God inspired men! “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” God’s Spirit (i.e. inspiration) is the vehicle with which God ‘gives all scripture’ -- God does not give scripture via any man, or by inspiring any man, or by any other means. Thus, God’s scripture has life -- it is alive, it is the living Spirit-filled words of God. Conversely, man does not have life; outside of God, man is dead. Yes, man has breath, but mere breath is not life; God’s Spirit is life. The words of men are mere breaths; whereas God’s word is Life itself. The reality of the inspiration of scripture has no connection with any efforts of man.
This living quality of scripture puzzles those who are not born again. It even puzzles those who are born again but who have had their thought processes impaired by spiritual deception.
If wannabe scholars could shift their burden from God's "inspired," "pure" and "preserved" word to man's intellect, then they could proceed to build their ivory towers. Don’t let them deceive you by their attempts to shift the inspiration of God’s living Spirit-filled words to man’s mere breath. For example, the next time you hear, “only the ‘Hebrew and Greek’ is the inspired text,” you’ll know the truth of the matter.
God's pattern has always been the same: He gives the COMMON man the COMMON bible in the COMMON language of the day, to do one thing -- evangelize the world.
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Taken
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Gods Word, Came forth out of Gods Mouth, in a Body God Prepared, Descended From the Heaven Above the Heavens, And was Sent to Earth, to Mary’s Womb.
The Lord Jesus, Returned to the Heaven Above the Heavens.
Before the Tribulations / Wrath Sent down From Heaven …
The following: IS the Only Event Called;
The Rapture (ie. The Lord Redeeming (His saved, His church)
The Lord Shall (and His Angels) Descend to the Lower Heavens and “command His Arch-Angel” to call up to The Lord…
EXPRESSLY——>
All Whom Christ the Lord Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened….
That “They” Shall meet Him, face to face, See Him as He IS,
AND
Thus forth be With Him Wherever He IS…
AND
From “THERE”, He / His Angels / His Saved and Quickened shall Return To Earth, And He shall claim His Throne and Promised Land/ Kingdom…
AND He Shall…
Rule over His Kingdom, and Mortals kingdoms, For 1,000 years…
THEREAFTER… more events to transpire.
Glory To God,
Taken
Taken
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Correct.
After Judgement.
A new Heaven and new Earth merge…
The Saved / Quickened Shall live On a “new Earth and new Heaven” that is One Place.
Glory to God,
Taken
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That would mean the HS was wrong since Paul did not see the second coming/resurrection/rapture.
The HS taught Paul many things but Paul also wrote his own things in his letters.
TribulationSigns
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Good.
Well, not quite correct. The phrase “we which are alive and remain” does not mean Christians who merely survive something or escape some particular event.
Paul is referring to the remaining living Elect—those Chosen ones who are still physically alive on earth when Christ returns. They are contrasted with the believers who have already died, whom Paul says will be raised first.
So the meaning is essentially: the Elect who are still alive and remain on earth at Christ’s coming will be caught up together with the resurrected saints to meet the Lord in the air.
The word “remain” does not by itself establish the idea of “surviving” some tribulation or catastrophe. The context is about the distinction between the dead in Christ and the living Elect who are still here when the Lord descends from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:13–17).
I agree with one part of your point: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not explicitly say that the saints will “go back to heaven with Christ.” But I would also caution against assuming that the “clouds” are merely literal meteorological clouds.
Throughout Scripture, clouds are repeatedly associated with God’s presence, glory, and divine manifestation. For example:
- Exodus 13:21 — God leads Israel in a pillar of cloud, signifying His presence.
- Exodus 40:34–35 — the cloud covers the tabernacle, and the glory of the LORD fills it.
- Matthew 17:5 — a bright cloud overshadows the disciples at Christ's transfiguration, and the Father speaks from the cloud.
- Acts 1:9 — Christ is taken up, and a cloud receives Him from their sight.
- Revelation 14:14 — Christ is pictured sitting upon a white cloud at His coming.
And notice Paul's conclusion: “and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The ultimate promise is not about the geographic destination of the saints, but that they will be forever with Christ in his Glory (clouds).
So I would say: the text does not teach, “Christ comes down, we meet Him in literal clouds, and then He takes us back to heaven.” That idea has to be imported into the passage. Paul simply says that the dead in Christ who have already been raised and Christ bring them with Him when He comes down to the air. Then the living Elect who are STILL ALIVE AND REMAIN on Earth at His coming will then be caught up together to meet with the Lord and the resurrected Saints in the air. From that point onward, all the Elect will forever be with the Lord.
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LOL. You are completely incapable of supporting any of your beliefs or answering any questions. When you are caught on you run - as you are now. Checkmate!
TribulationSigns
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No, it does not. Please read the passage carefully:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Paul does not say that our destination will be "heaven" if you are thinking about present Heaven. No, He says that the dead in Christ will be raised first, and then the living Elect who remain on earth at Christ’s coming will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord IN THE AIR.
From that point onward, we will forever be with the Lord. We will not return to present heaven, or even come back to sin-cursed Earth, because our final dwelling is not this present Old Earth or Old Heaven, because Scripture teaches that they will pass away. Our ultimate home is the New Heaven and New Earth, where God will dwell with His people forever.
Revelation 21:1–3
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away... Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them.”
So the focus of 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 is not, “We are caught up to the air then come back to heaven and remain there.” The focus is that all the Elect—those resurrected from the dead and those still alive at Christ’s coming—will be gathered together to meet Christ in the air and will forever be with Him, ultimately dwelling with God in the New Heaven and New Earth, after Satan and all the wicked will be cast into Lake of Fire then the present Earth and present Heaven will pass away. Then we will end up in New Heaven and New Earth forever.
TribulationSigns
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Oh, really? That is where your problem begun.
That means your doctrines build upon on what they believe instead of the Word of God. Bad move. That does not sounds like you are studying like a Berean.
I do not care what they believe. I tested their doctrine with Scripture if it is so -- something that you should be doing.
You can certainly show many places in Scripture where 1,000 refers to a literal quantity, but that does not prove that the “1,000 years” in Revelation 20 must therefore be a literal 1,000 calendar years. That is a category error. The meaning of a number must be determined by its context, literary genre, and how the surrounding imagery is used.
Revelation is filled with symbolic imagery. For example:
- Revelation 5:6 — John sees a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes. Are we expecting a literal Lamb in heaven with seven physical eyes and seven horns? No. The imagery communicates spiritual realities.
- Revelation 9:7–10 — John sees locusts with the appearance of horses, crowns, human faces, women's hair, lions' teeth, and tails like scorpions. Are these literal locusts with human faces and women's hair? Obviously not. The imagery is symbolic.
- Revelation 12:3 — a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Again, this is symbolic imagery, not a literal zoological creature.
- Revelation 17:9–10 — the seven heads are explicitly interpreted symbolically as seven mountains and seven kings.
The issue is not whether the number 1,000 can ever be literal. Of course it can. Genesis 20, Numbers 31, Judges 15, and the other passages you listed demonstrate that. But those passages are describing ordinary historical quantities in contexts where a literal number is appropriate.
Revelation 20 is a completely different context. It belongs to a highly symbolic prophetic vision. The question therefore is not, “Can 1,000 ever mean a literal number?” The question is, “What does 1,000 signify in this particular vision?”
Biblically, 1,000 can function as a symbolic expression of fullness, completeness, or a vast/complete quantity. For example:
Psalm 50:10 — “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.”
Does God own the cattle on exactly 1,000 hills but somehow not the cattle on hill 1,001? Of course not. The “thousand hills” expresses the fullness of God's possession.
Psalm 105:8 speaks of God's covenant being commanded “to a thousand generations.” The point is not to establish a mathematical limit after which God's covenant ceases. The number conveys the enduring fullness of God's covenant faithfulness.
Therefore, we should not make the mistake of saying, “1,000 is literal in these nine passages, therefore it must be literal in Revelation 20.” That is no more sound than saying, “The Lamb is literal in one passage, therefore the Lamb with seven eyes and seven horns in Revelation 5 must be a literal seven-eyed animal.”
The context determines the meaning.
And that is precisely why Revelation 20 must be interpreted in harmony with the rest of Revelation and the New Testament. The “thousand years” represents the full, complete period of Christ's present reign, during which Satan is restrained from deceiving the nations in the particular sense described in Revelation 20, while Christ reigns with His saints.
So the real issue is not whether I am willing to take Scripture literally. I am willing to take Scripture exactly as it was given. When Scripture is speaking historically and literally, we understand it literally. When Scripture gives us symbolic visions, we must recognize the symbols and allow Scripture itself to explain them.
Literalism is not the same thing as biblical interpretation. Context, genre, symbolism, and the analogy of Scripture matter.
You have alot to learn to mediate on this with Lord, bud.
The new heaven came when the old heaven — Abraham’s bosom was done away with. The heaven that now is isn’t going away.
Postrib rapture has always placed the setting as a horrible time.
They suggest they are very hearty people and much stronger than pretribs because they, in their minds, see themselves running from cave to cave to escape death.
Jesus, on the other hand, places the rapture in normal life, and everyday life, with commerce and jobs.
See how quickly postrib rapture falls apart.
Postrib rapture is NOT what Jesus taught.
You need more AI to get answers for you. This way you don't have to learn.
How can a thousand years equate to literal time since the souls John sees in heaven are still alive after they have physically been martyred for their faith?
When they were physically alive, they were faithful unto death. John writes "they lived and reigned with Chris a thousand years." They could not have lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years of time while on the earth, because no human beings have lived then died for ONE thousand physical years after the flood of Noah's day.
Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Genesis 6:3 (KJV) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Another problem with believing a/the thousand years physically represents ONE thousand years of time on this earth, is explaining how others who are not numbered with the martyred souls alive "shall reign with Him a thousand years" also. How can others reign with Christ for one thousand years but not be numbered among the souls John sees alive who had already lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years?
Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
We find the answer for this conundrum in vs 5. They "the rest of the dead" will not live again until after the thousand years were finished. Since they won't live again until after the thousand years have ended, we cannot say a/the thousand years literally represent time for living on this earth for ONE thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The other thing that makes no sense is to argue a/the thousand years of time is future and will come when Christ comes again. Because when Christ returns it will be FOREVER. And it will not be on this earth but shall be after this first earth has passed away. That will be in the hour coming when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound that time given this earth wherein man must be saved shall be no longer. That is when "the rest of the dead" shall live again either clothed in immortal/incorruptible flesh or clothed in natural flesh destined to the lake of fire that is the second death.
Re 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
The only way to make sense of Rev 20 comes when we understand a/the thousand years does not equate to ONE thousand physical years of time on this earth. But is symbolically written to represent time when faithful saints began to live and reign with Christ through His cross and this symbolic a/the thousand years shall be ended when the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete.
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