Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

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Spiritual Israelite

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Yea! Why would he? His position is nonsensical.
Exactly. But, he thinks we're the bad guys just because we expose the flaws in his false beliefs. The problem is not us. The problem is his extreme pride and stubbornness that is reflected in his unwillingness to acknowledge that he is mistaken and needs to adjust his beliefs accordingly.
 
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WPM

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Op Note

One thing you note with the promoters of error is that they cannot biblically justify their position and that they end up avoiding the obvious, hurling ad hominem and then running.

On this thread there are multiple clear biblical arguments that have been avoided. The Op stands unrefuted.

I put it to you: that is because it is biblical.
 
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Truth7t7

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The teaching above promoted by a couple of posters on this board is more in line with modern Liberal atheistic psychology thinking today or established Christadelphianism than biblical Christianity.

The modern psychological model

The modern psychological model views the symptoms described in biblical narratives—such as speaking in multiple voices, exhibiting different personalities, and displaying extreme behavioral changes—as consistent with dissociative identity disorder rather than literal demonic possession.

Christadelphians

Christadelphians do not believe in a supernatural, personal devil, but rather view the "devil" and "Satan" as personifications of sin, evil human nature, and temptation. They interpret these terms to represent the sinful inclinations within individuals, or sometimes a group of people or a political power acting as an opponent. According to this belief, sin originates from within a person's own desires, and the "devil" is not an external being with magical powers, but a metaphorical representation of the struggle against God's will.

The truth!

Do you realize, Satan is not a physical being? He is an angel. He is an invisible spirit. He is a real demonic angelic entity. He is not merely an abstract influence. Even though Satan is an angel of darkness, 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Demons are fallen angels. They operate in the invisible realm. Their allegiance is to Satan. When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels. For example, Jesus describes them in Matthew 25:41 as the devil and his angels. Revelation 12:7 describes them as the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.”

Job 1:6-7: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

We can see how the demonic host operates as a collective whole.

Demons are fallen angels

Jud 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates: God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Gr. tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This is talking about angels that sinned at the beginning and therefore fell. Adam and Eve were not angels. They are not held in "everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” God redeemed them. He made an atoning sacrifice for them in the Garden and gave them a righteous covering. Who else is this speaking about than Satan and his demons?

Revelation 12:1-4 shows Satan and his devils being eternally evicted from heaven. Interestingly the demonic angels are depicted as “stars.” It reads: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon ... And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”

In Revelation 12:4, 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan in his rebellion. They sided with him when he fell, and are part of the kingdom of darkness.

Job 38:4-7 tells us, speaking about the beginning of time, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

Revelation 9:1 says: I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abyss.”

It seems correct to view the flying star in view here as an elect angel. Remember, the key or authority no longer belongs to Satan. He was defeated. Christ and His angels exercise that now within the invisible realm. We exercise it upon the earth.

It is clear that stars are used by John in Revelation as symbols of angels. A falling star is a common easily-recognized natural symbol that is used in a spiritual way here to describe an elect angel descending from heaven before the end of time to open the pit to release Satan and his demons from their restraint in order to restrict the great commission.
Absolutely 100% Two Thumbs Way Up, Good Work!!!

Sad to see RWB is following the heresy
 

WPM

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No, they are not the so-called angels.

1st John 4:1
  • "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
And speaking of ministering spirits, we are also warned to beware of what type spirits that come because all are not sent by God. Some are sent by Satan and are merely masquerading as messengers (not angels) who are ministers of light.

2nd Corinthians 11:14-15
  • "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
  • Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
The false messenger who appears as a minister righteousness, a messenger of light, in order to deceive. These are false ministering spirits appearing as true ministering spirits, of which God warns us not to believe every spirit. Try or prove them, and the way to do that is by the word of God! The way not to be deceived is to pay close attention to their authority. Is it the word of God or the words, traditions, and speculations of men?

...but I digress. The messengers who are true ministering spirits are those who are truly sent of God to evangelize. Not your fantasy of celestial created beings.

As for the rest of your post, I won't deal with it because I already covered it. You were just repeating yourself with wrong interpretation.
  1. How can Satan send anything to anyone when you do not attribute personality to him? He is abstract evil in your opinion.
  2. Are Christians possessed by angels?
  3. Are all the wicked demon possessed?
  4. Are evil angels - real spiritual entities distinct to man, is it evil or
 
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Bladerunner

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  1. How can Satan send anything to anyone when you do not attribute personality to him? He is abstract evil in your opinion.
No, He was an angel of the highest order and fell like Adam did. He has around him his fallen angels and millions of demons. Since you and I have been given the sin nature from Adam, we cannot please GOD unless He changes us.
  1. Are Christians possessed by angels?
No, they are not possessed but simply fallen from the sons of GOD to something not associated with that and are awaiting their judgments as well.
  1. Are all the wicked demon possessed?
That depends of the level of wickedness one is at. There are many who have let a demon come into their body and it does not go well.. You see demons need a body or they are simply spirits of this earth roaming until the final judgement.
  1. Are evil angels - real spiritual entities distinct to man, is it evil or
God made the angels and they are like sands of the sea. No they are not distinct to man but like many they will also receive GOD's wrath.
 

WPM

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No, He was an angel of the highest order and fell like Adam did. He has around him his fallen angels and millions of demons. Since you and I have been given the sin nature from Adam, we cannot please GOD unless He changes us.

No, they are not possessed but simply fallen from the sons of GOD to something not associated with that and are awaiting their judgments as well.

That depends of the level of wickedness one is at. There are many who have let a demon come into their body and it does not go well.. You see demons need a body or they are simply spirits of this earth roaming until the final judgement.

God made the angels and they are like sands of the sea. No they are not distinct to man but like many they will also receive GOD's wrath.
Thank you for answering these. You are spot on.

The reason TS and rwb avoid them is because it exposes their heresy.
 

WPM

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Once again, I have never said demons/devils/Satan as well as angels of God are not real! What I have said all along is that they exist by working and doing through physical hosts. Yes, I agree this is ridiculous!
Once again, I have never said demons/devils/Satan as well as angels of God are not real! What I have said all along is that they exist by working and doing through physical hosts. Yes, I agree this is ridiculous!

LOL!!!

No, it is YOU who is being deceived by your own false doctrine.

It is YOU who are forcing church tradition and human imagination into the Word of God instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Just because Job 38 speaks about creation does not automatically mean “morning stars” are angelic beings before Adam. That pathetic assumption comes from Sunday school theology, not from the clear testimony of God’s Word. Here is your biblical lesson:

I was reading this today:

Act 1:6 When they (the disciples) therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Who were these two messengers “in white apparel” that suddenly turned up on the scene at the Lord's ascension to reassure the disciples? Where these some unknown and unnamed hermit prophets?
 
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WPM

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Once again, I have never said demons/devils/Satan as well as angels of God are not real! What I have said all along is that they exist by working and doing through physical hosts. Yes, I agree this is ridiculous!
Once again, I have never said demons/devils/Satan as well as angels of God are not real! What I have said all along is that they exist by working and doing through physical hosts. Yes, I agree this is ridiculous!

LOL!!!

No, it is YOU who is being deceived by your own false doctrine.

It is YOU who are forcing church tradition and human imagination into the Word of God instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Just because Job 38 speaks about creation does not automatically mean “morning stars” are angelic beings before Adam. That pathetic assumption comes from Sunday school theology, not from the clear testimony of God’s Word. Here is your biblical lesson:
Look at the apparel of the angels in Revelation 15:6:

“And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues,
clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.”

Are these seven angels seven prophets of God that are going to pour out the wrath of God on the wicked at the end? Can you see how ridiculous your beliefs are?
 

WPM

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Nowhere does Scripture speak of Satan being created before the beginning when God created all things in heaven and earth in six literal days. Nor does Scripture tell us Satan fell. He is depicted as the serpent created more cunning and crafty than any other beast of the field that God created. From the New Testament we find serpent is a metaphor for Satan CREATED "more subtil" [cunning & crafty in a bad sense] than any beast of the field. The prophet Isaiah writes that God formed the light and created darkness, and He created evil. It is my belief that God created the serpent representing Satan to test human kind.

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I m ake peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God did not make evil or evil angels, they chose that by rebelling against the voice of Good. It was the same with man.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Everything God created was very good, including Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve did good before God or they could not have been in a right relationship with Him.

You are now claiming there is no such thing as "natural darkness" or "spiritual darkness" in the Bible. Wow! Natural darkness is not evil. It is simply the absence of natural light. Spiritual darkness is different. It is wicked. It is evil. It comes through rebelling against the voice of God.

Hello! He made angels and man with the ability to do evil. He in no way is the author of that. Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Both Isaiah and Ezekiel describe the casting down of Satan and his banishment from the heavenly realm. So, does Revelation.

Isaiah 14 12-17 states, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Ezekiel 28:12-19: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And
his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
 
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Pierac

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Isaiah 14: Reading the Text in Its Own Context

The Controlling Context: A Taunt Against Babylon

Isaiah 14:4 (KJV) Thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.

Verse 4 introduces the passage as a taunt against the king of Babylon, and that context governs everything that follows. The narrative describing the fall of the heylel is taunt-poetry, the kind of thing a prophet says over a fallen tyrant. The imagery climbs to heaven, but the fall it describes is political. The poem concerns the death and disgrace of a human king, including the denial of honorable burial, rather than explicitly narrating an angel’s expulsion from heaven.

Isaiah 14:12-15 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

These verses contain the traditional interpretation, and it’s important to take a moment to consider them, as no passage has contributed more to the traditional account of Satan’s origin than these four verses. Notice what they actually contain: five boasts, each introduced the same way. I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will sit upon the mount of the congregation. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will be like the most High.

That is the vocabulary of ancient kingship, and something older lies behind it. Mesopotamian rulers styled themselves king of the universe and king of the four quarters, claiming dominion over the whole earth and the gods' favor. The boasts in these verses reach further still. The mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north, is Zaphon, the mountain where the gods of Canaan were said to assemble, and the ascent this king imagines finds its closest parallels in Canaanite myth rather than in any surviving royal inscription.

That background deserves to be named plainly, because it cuts in two directions at once: the imagery is borrowed from stories told about gods, and the figure it targets is still a man. Isaiah takes the king’s own advertising and turns it back on him, and the passage answers the five boasts with a single destination: yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

The Hebrew is Sheol, and the pit here is not merely a burial place but the underworld itself, the lowest point in the cosmos set against the highest. That reversal is the taunt's foundation. And the company waiting there is human. Sheol rouses the departed kings of the nations to meet him, and they tell him he has become weak as they are (vv. 9, 10). By verse 19, the imagery has narrowed to an actual grave, and a corpse denied it. [1]

Then the passage identifies its subject.

Isaiah 14:16 (KJV) Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?

The Hebrew term is ish, the ordinary word for a man. The word by itself does not settle the question, since Scripture can use it for a heavenly figure who appears in human form, as when Daniel speaks of the man Gabriel (Daniel 9:21). What settles it here is everything surrounding the word. The one addressed has a grave, a corpse, and a burial denied him. Viewing this text as an angelic rebellion prior to human history adds a layer beyond the identification the text provides. [2]

Isaiah 14:11 (KJV) the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

A few verses later, the passage describes what has become of his body.

Isaiah 14:19-20 (KJV) But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch... Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people.

Worms, a grave, and a corpse denied burial are not the struggles of a fallen angel. They are the humiliations of a dead king, and the passage reflects on them.

Isaiah is not telling the story of a rebellion in heaven. He is mocking a dead king who once talked like one.



[1] On Zaphon and the Canaanite background of these verses, and on Sheol and the pit in verses 9 through 15, see John Day, Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, and John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah: Chapters 1–39.
[2] Wilhelm Gesenius, Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures, trans. Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, entry ‘ish’. For the word used of a heavenly figure in human form, see Daniel 9:21, where Gabriel is called ha-ish. On Isaiah 14 as an oracle against the king of Babylon, see John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah: Chapters 1–39, and John D.W. Watts, Isaiah 1–33.
 

Pierac

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What the Text Is Not: The Absence of Satanic Biography

Our Scriptures depict a dark and adversarial force at work within creation, but interpreting this force’s origins in Isaiah 14 is subjective. Evidence from the New Testament suggests an alternative perspective that does not align with the traditional narrative about Satan's origin. Just look at these 2 verses.

John 8:44 (NASB) He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

1 John 3:8 (ESV) The devil has been sinning from the beginning.

From the beginning, the adversary is a murderer and a liar. The phrase need not fix the first moment of his existence; it may mark the beginning of the human story, or of deception itself. [1] What they describe is a settled character, not a fall from grace. There is no former glory here, no dramatic descent, no holiness lost. That whole story is drawn from Isaiah 14, where it belongs to the level of synthesis rather than explicit statement. [2]

Whether Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 carry any secondary resonance beyond their immediate historical referents is a question this post leaves unresolved. Typological and intertextual readings have a legitimate place in biblical interpretation. The argument presented here is more focused: these texts, when examined on their own terms, do not explicitly support the cosmic biography tradition derived from them. Traditionally, this inference has often been viewed as the primary interpretation. This post aims to clarify the sequence.

Why Later Texts Do Not Override Immediate Context

The strongest counterargument should be stated before it is answered. Even if Isaiah 14 was originally addressed to the king of Babylon, the New Testament writers may have perceived a deeper typological dimension in the passage, a resonance pointing beyond the historical referent to the spiritual adversary behind earthly powers.

If the New Testament connects Isaiah 14 to Satan, that connection carries interpretive authority regardless of what the eighth-century prophet intended. Serious interpreters hold this coherent position. The question is whether the texts cited in its support establish what they are claimed to establish.

Luke 10:18, where Jesus says “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven,” is the passage most often cited as confirmation. Three observations bear on that use. First, Luke 10 does not quote or cite Isaiah 14. The verbal connection is assumed, not demonstrated.

Second, the statement has a specific immediate narrative context: the disciples have just returned reporting that demons submitted to them in Jesus’s name. Jesus is affirming their present spiritual authority. Third, Jesus describes something He saw, using a verb of continued watching, without telling us where, if anywhere in Scripture, that vision is recorded.[3]

Some interpreters read Jesus’s words as the report of a witnessed cosmic event: a sudden, total fall “like lightning” that grounds and authorizes the disciples’ earthly authority. This is a coherent reading and cannot be set aside on grammatical grounds alone.[4] What it does not establish, however, is the claim this post is contesting: that Isaiah 14 describes that event. Even if Luke 10:18 refers to a real cosmic fall, the connection to Isaiah 14 remains an inference; nothing in Luke’s text signals it.

The fall this reading envisions, from prior glory into defeat, may be difficult to reconcile with John 8:44, where Jesus states that Satan “has not stood in the truth” and “was a murderer from the beginning”.

The same caution applies to Revelation, which draws on cosmic imagery from many Old Testament sources but offers no systematic interpretation. Revelation is in fact the clearest case of all, since it formally quotes nothing and still echoes the prophets on nearly every page. Allusion, not citation, is the ordinary way the New Testament handles Scripture, and it carries real weight. What it does not carry is precision of reference. An echo can show that a writer had a passage in mind. It cannot show which figure he understood that passage to describe, and that is the question at issue here. An echo is not a citation.[5]

The connection between Luke 10:18 and Isaiah 14 rests on inference, and that distinction matters for how confidently the tradition should be held.



[1]The phrase ap’ archēs is classified by some lexicons under its widest sense, the beginning of all things, grouping John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 with creation texts such as Matthew 19:4 and 19:8. See Spiros Zodhiates, ed., The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament, s.v. archē (G746). Even on that widest reading, the beginning in view is the beginning of the created order; on any reading, these texts describe a persistent condition rather than a fall from prior holiness; that final judgment is the argument of this chapter, not a ruling of the lexicon.
[2]For the broader historical point that the New Testament nowhere narrates a primordial angelic rebellion, treating the adversary’s opposition to God as characteristic from the outset, see Neil Forsyth, The Old Enemy: Satan and the Combat Myth. The application of that observation to John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 is the argument of this chapter. For the exegetical context of Isaiah 14 and the “king of Babylon” reading that underlies the traditional Satan-biography, see John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah: Chapters 1–39. The identification of Isaiah 14 as the source of the traditional Satan-biography is traced in Elaine Pagels, The Origin of Satan.
[3] The verb in Luke 10:18 is imperfect, etheōroun, “I was watching.” See I. Howard Marshall, The Gospel of Luke: A Commentary on the Greek Text.
[4]The visionary reading of Luke 10:18, in which Jesus reports a witnessed heavenly event, is one of several interpretations debated in the scholarly literature; the options are surveyed in Julian V. Hills, ‘Luke 10.18: Who Saw Satan Fall?,’ in the Journal for the Study of the New Testament. For the divine-identity Christology drawn on later in this book, see Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the God of Israel.
[5] On Revelation’s use of the Old Testament without formal citation, see G.K. Beale, The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, and G.K. Beale and D.A. Carson, eds., Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament. On allusion and echo more generally, see Richard B. Hays, Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul.
 
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Pierac

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Ezekiel 28: Another Human King

Another passage used to construct the story of Lucifer is Ezekiel 28. To see this clearly, first read what God says at the beginning:

Ezekiel 28:2 (KJV) Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God... yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God.

The passage states that the subject of Ezekiel 28 is the king of Tyre, another ancient ruler whose city commanded a maritime trading network on the Mediterranean coast. As his wealth and power grew, the King of Tyre began to call himself God. Ezekiel was sent to tell him exactly how far short of God he fell.

One feature of the chapter should be named before going further, because the traditional reading leans on it. Ezekiel 28 contains two oracles. The first, verses 1 through 10, addresses the prince of Tyre, Hebrew nagid, and it is there that God says, “thou art a man, and not God.” The second, verses 11 through 19, is a lament over the king of Tyre, Hebrew melek, and it is there that the Eden imagery, the precious stones, the anointed cherub, and the closing “never shalt thou be any more” all appear.

Interpreters who read the second oracle as the biography of Satan often rest their case on exactly that division, arguing that the prince is the man and the king is the power standing behind him. The division is real and should be granted. What does not follow from it is that the two oracles have different subjects. They stand together in one chapter, spoken against one city, and the lament ends in a death that the first oracle has already announced.[1]

The passage then uses rich poetic language to describe the king’s glory and his fall. He was in Eden, the garden of God. He was covered with precious stones, and he was the anointed cherub. He was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.

How can language about Eden and an anointed cherub be applied to a human king? Consider Ezekiel 31. That oracle is addressed to Pharaoh of Egypt, and it describes a towering cedar that the trees of Eden, in the garden of God, envied. The cedar itself stands for Assyria, and at the close of the chapter the prophet turns the comparison directly onto Pharaoh: “To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden?” Eden language is applied there to a Gentile ruler whom the tradition has never placed in the garden.[2]

Here, the Eden language is prophetic poetry describing a ruler given extraordinary, God-given favor who was then corrupted by pride. At its immediate level, it is an account of human pride and humiliation. Whether the imagery also carries a secondary resonance is a separate question.

The Verse That Seems Most Difficult

A difficult verse to apply to a human king is Ezekiel 28:14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth. Many conclude the subject must be an angel. Yet the text has already declared: “Thou art a man.” That declaration stands in the preceding oracle rather than in the lament itself, so it does not close the question on its own.[3]

A man can be described in royal, even celestial, terms in prophetic poetry, especially one who had been given an extraordinary, God-given position as king of Tyre. The poetic language expresses the magnitude of what was lost.

Moreover, apart from the disputed reading of Ezekiel 28 itself, Scripture nowhere associates Satan with the cherubim. The cherubim guard holy things, such as the entrance to Eden and the mercy seat. They are associated with God's holiness and presence. Jesus said that Satan has been a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth (John 8:44). Whatever the precise reach of “from the beginning,” nothing in that portrait suggests an anointed guardian of holy space.

Never Shalt Thou Be Any More

Ezekiel 28:19 says of this figure, “thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Yet the traditional interpretation holds that Satan continues to exist. Revelation portrays him as active until his final judgment in the lake of fire.

The finality of “never... any more” is difficult to reconcile with an immortal being who continues to exist for ages afterward. Applied to the man the passage actually addresses, a king who died and did not return, the language fits without strain.

What the Bible Says About Satan

If Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 do not clearly identify a satanic figure, what does the New Testament say about the adversary without referencing those passages? The depiction is more limited and consistent than tradition suggests.

The only verse that describes Satan in terms of light is 2 Corinthians 11:14, which says Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. The Greek verb describes a change of outward appearance, which is why published versions render it “transformed,” “disguises,” or “masquerades.” The weight falls on Satan presenting himself under the appearance of light, not on his ever having possessed it. So what is Satan’s origin?

The honest answer is that Scripture never narrates it. The Bible names the adversary as tempter, liar, murderer, and accuser, but it does not supply the biography tradition offers in its place, and that silence matters. What Scripture insists is that nothing exists outside the Creator’s hand.

Genesis 3:1 tells us that the serpent, whatever its ultimate identity, was one of the beasts of the field that the LORD God had made. Later biblical writers associate the ancient serpent with the devil, but Genesis itself does not narrate how that adversarial role began. And Isaiah 54:16 is perhaps the most striking statement of all:

Isaiah 54:16 (KJV) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

God created the waster. Isaiah does not identify the waster as Satan, so the verse supplies no biography for the adversary. What it does reinforce is that destructive powers do not operate beyond God’s reach, and that raises precisely the question the text leaves open: the relationship between divine sovereignty and moral evil.



[1] On the two oracles of Ezekiel 28 and the relationship between them, see Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel: Chapters 25–48.
[2] Block, The Book of Ezekiel: Chapters 25–48.
[3] The Hebrew of verse 14 reads “thou art the anointed cherub,” while the Septuagint takes the same consonants as a preposition and reads “with the cherub I placed thee.” See Septuaginta, ed. Alfred Ras, at Ezekiel 28:14, and Block, The Book of Ezekiel: Chapters 25–48.
 
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amigo de christo

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God did not make evil or evil angels, they chose that by rebelling against the voice of Good. It was the same with man.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Everything God created was very good, including Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve did good before God or they could not have been in a right relationship with Him.

You are now claiming there is no such thing as "natural darkness" or "spiritual darkness" in the Bible. Wow! Natural darkness is not evil. It is simply the absence of natural light. Spiritual darkness is different. It is wicked. It is evil. It comes through rebelling against the voice of God.

Hello! He made angels and man with the ability to do evil. He in no way is the author of that. Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Both Isaiah and Ezekiel describe the casting down of Satan and his banishment from the heavenly realm. So, does Revelation.

Isaiah 14 12-17 states, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Ezekiel 28:12-19: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And
his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
That is what more and more now do not know or never knew .
THAT GOD INDEED DID create all things GOOD .
IT was they that corrupted themselves .
And now a word .
IT is NOT wrong or evil FOR GOD the creator of all that is to DESIRE TO BE PUT FIRST above all
and to have the HONOR and GLORY above all and to have all worship HIM .
But it darn sure is for the created to do so .
GOD gave them free will my friend . And lucifer , rather than walking in THE LIGHT
Became Enamored with the gifts and wisdom GOD had given HIM . HE became enamored with HIS OWN SELF .
GOD created all things GOOD . GOD had even created man perfect and upright .
But humanity chose WRONG the day eve chose to BELEIVE the serpent and nOT GOD and did eat of the tree
and gave unto her husband and he did eat .
Take notice that ADAM made a serious fatal mistake and chose HIS WIFE before GOD and did eat of her hand .
Tis years later why we would SEE JESUS remind them
HE WHO PUTS MOTHER , FATHER , SON or daughter before ME is not worthy OF ME .
GOD did not create SIN . HE simply created man in his own image
and man chose to do as the lucifer chose to do . for the serpent did tempt
and the woman did heed it and the woman gave to her husband and he did put her first and ate of her hand .
Sin and destruction have hence came upon all , death came upon all . BY MAN , NOT BY GOD .
 
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amigo de christo

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God did not make evil or evil angels, they chose that by rebelling against the voice of Good. It was the same with man.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Everything God created was very good, including Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve did good before God or they could not have been in a right relationship with Him.

You are now claiming there is no such thing as "natural darkness" or "spiritual darkness" in the Bible. Wow! Natural darkness is not evil. It is simply the absence of natural light. Spiritual darkness is different. It is wicked. It is evil. It comes through rebelling against the voice of God.

Hello! He made angels and man with the ability to do evil. He in no way is the author of that. Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Both Isaiah and Ezekiel describe the casting down of Satan and his banishment from the heavenly realm. So, does Revelation.

Isaiah 14 12-17 states, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Ezekiel 28:12-19: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And
his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
death came upon m an , BUT NOT BY GOD , but by man .
BY GOD ETERNAL LIFE and FREEDOM FROM SIN and DEATH has come IN JESUS CHRIST .
Yet many choose the inclusive god who has made the path very braod , sin accepting and even UNBELIEF accepting .
That god cannot save . yet many are in the time of love , OF a HARLOTS LOVE that is .
they love the love of a harlot who seekth power ov er all the nations and has poured a cup
by which to gain such power over the false religioins as well as much of christendom .
REBELLION is in her cup . And the sheep do not sit at her table or sip of her cup of eat of her ecumeincal dainties .
 

WPM

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Ezekiel 28: Another Human King

Another passage used to construct the story of Lucifer is Ezekiel 28. To see this clearly, first read what God says at the beginning:

Ezekiel 28:2 (KJV) Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God... yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God.

The passage states that the subject of Ezekiel 28 is the king of Tyre, another ancient ruler whose city commanded a maritime trading network on the Mediterranean coast. As his wealth and power grew, the King of Tyre began to call himself God. Ezekiel was sent to tell him exactly how far short of God he fell.

One feature of the chapter should be named before going further, because the traditional reading leans on it. Ezekiel 28 contains two oracles. The first, verses 1 through 10, addresses the prince of Tyre, Hebrew nagid, and it is there that God says, “thou art a man, and not God.” The second, verses 11 through 19, is a lament over the king of Tyre, Hebrew melek, and it is there that the Eden imagery, the precious stones, the anointed cherub, and the closing “never shalt thou be any more” all appear.

Interpreters who read the second oracle as the biography of Satan often rest their case on exactly that division, arguing that the prince is the man and the king is the power standing behind him. The division is real and should be granted. What does not follow from it is that the two oracles have different subjects. They stand together in one chapter, spoken against one city, and the lament ends in a death that the first oracle has already announced.[1]

The passage then uses rich poetic language to describe the king’s glory and his fall. He was in Eden, the garden of God. He was covered with precious stones, and he was the anointed cherub. He was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.

How can language about Eden and an anointed cherub be applied to a human king? Consider Ezekiel 31. That oracle is addressed to Pharaoh of Egypt, and it describes a towering cedar that the trees of Eden, in the garden of God, envied. The cedar itself stands for Assyria, and at the close of the chapter the prophet turns the comparison directly onto Pharaoh: “To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden?” Eden language is applied there to a Gentile ruler whom the tradition has never placed in the garden.[2]

Here, the Eden language is prophetic poetry describing a ruler given extraordinary, God-given favor who was then corrupted by pride. At its immediate level, it is an account of human pride and humiliation. Whether the imagery also carries a secondary resonance is a separate question.

The Verse That Seems Most Difficult

A difficult verse to apply to a human king is Ezekiel 28:14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth. Many conclude the subject must be an angel. Yet the text has already declared: “Thou art a man.” That declaration stands in the preceding oracle rather than in the lament itself, so it does not close the question on its own.[3]

A man can be described in royal, even celestial, terms in prophetic poetry, especially one who had been given an extraordinary, God-given position as king of Tyre. The poetic language expresses the magnitude of what was lost.

Moreover, apart from the disputed reading of Ezekiel 28 itself, Scripture nowhere associates Satan with the cherubim. The cherubim guard holy things, such as the entrance to Eden and the mercy seat. They are associated with God's holiness and presence. Jesus said that Satan has been a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth (John 8:44). Whatever the precise reach of “from the beginning,” nothing in that portrait suggests an anointed guardian of holy space.

Never Shalt Thou Be Any More

Ezekiel 28:19 says of this figure, “thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Yet the traditional interpretation holds that Satan continues to exist. Revelation portrays him as active until his final judgment in the lake of fire.

The finality of “never... any more” is difficult to reconcile with an immortal being who continues to exist for ages afterward. Applied to the man the passage actually addresses, a king who died and did not return, the language fits without strain.

What the Bible Says About Satan

If Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 do not clearly identify a satanic figure, what does the New Testament say about the adversary without referencing those passages? The depiction is more limited and consistent than tradition suggests.
Ezekiel was not just speaking to the king of Tyrus but to the spiritual power that controlled him and worked through him – Satan. The king of Tyrus was simply a wicked instrument that the devil used. By addressing the human king and his spiritual ruler simultaneously, Ezekiel shows how Satan's pride and fall are mirrored in the king's actions and ultimate destruction.
  • First of all, the king of Tyrus was still alive here when this was being spoken.
  • Second, the king of Tyrus was definitely not in the Garden of Eden. That would have made him thousands of years old, which is ridiculous.
  • Thirdly, the king of Tyrus was not an anointed guardian cherub. He was a human being. Cherubs are angelic creatures.
  • Fourthly, the king of Tyrus was not born blameless or sinless. He was born with original sin. He was born depraved.
  • Fifthly, the king of Tyrus was not in the mountain of God, a reference to the direct presence of God in heaven, neither was he on Mount Horeb, the earthly mountain of God with Moses.
  • Sixthly, there is nowhere the king of Tyrus corrupted the wisdom he had been given by God in the splendour of God’s presence. He was always an out and out heathen king.
  • Seventhly, the king of Tyrus was not cast out of God’s holy mount to the ground.
We all know: Satan works through the wicked to accomplish his purposes. These 2 kings were simply surrogates who Satan used. They were his evil ambassadors. Satan worked through them. He spoke through them. He is still doing the same today.

While Scripture speaks of wicked leaders and wicked kingdoms, they are ultimately controlled by, and representative of, Satan and the kingdom of darkness. They are Satan’s ambassadors. For example, Satan is shown to operate through "the king of Babylon" in Isaiah 14:3-11 and the “King of Tyre” in Ezekiel 28. The human kings were simply ungodly hosts by which Satan implemented his designs and manifested his evil. He has been doing this from the beginning. They were conduits by which he perpetrated his evil. Both prophecies start off talking about wicked rulers and morph into exposures of the ultimate power behind these tyrants.

When did the king of Babylon fall from heaven?

The king of Babylon never fell from heaven. No human did. To argue that is ridiculous. He was also not called Lucifer, the shining one, the morning star, or son of the dawn. This can only refer to an angel. What is more, it can obviously only be a fallen angel. After all, this angel has: "fallen from heaven." He is rebuked for his pride and rebellion at the beginning. Elect angels are not fallen angels.

The reality is, this is speaking about Satan. Lucifer was spiritually created a light bearer or a morning star.
  • Pride brought the overthrow of Satan.
  • Satan lost his exalted place in heaven when he rebelled.
  • This talks about a future day when we will see the devil for who he really is. That is the day that we will know even as we are known. It is when we are perfected. Satan will be exposed for the fool he is.
  • We also see here, Satan will not willingly let his followers go. He keeps them imprisoned.
 
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rwb

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How about this:
o. "I bring good and I bring disaster" (Isaiah 45:7)
o. "For who resists his will" (Romans 9:19)

God created this whole universe. The idea that our decisions are strictly our own IMO does not jive with that.

The KJV says it in a way that omits the confusion. The question becomes why? Why did God create darkness and evil? IMO God created this evil at the beginning called darkness and the serpent to try/test the hearts of mankind. God knowing mankind would disobey Him would sin and bring death through sin into His creation. So, God created darkness and evil because mankind had to experience these things before they could understand God's mercy and grace to all who would be saved.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 

WPM

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The KJV says it in a way that omits the confusion. The question becomes why? Why did God create darkness and evil? IMO God created this evil at the beginning called darkness and the serpent to try/test the hearts of mankind. God knowing mankind would disobey Him would sin and bring death through sin into His creation. So, God created darkness and evil because mankind had to experience these things before they could understand God's mercy and grace to all who would be saved.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
He made angels and man with the ability to do evil. He in no way is the author of that. Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
 

rwb

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He made angels and man with the ability to do evil. He in no way is the author of that. Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

This passage from James says nothing about angels of God being created with the ability to do evil. James is appealing to man, that they might not accuse God of tempting them with evil, for God does not tempt man to evil. Because man, from the abundance of our own heart are tempted and drawn away of their own lust that brings forth sin, and sin brings forth death.

James 1:14-15 (KJV) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.