Grow up and address the question: How is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 not the same day Jesus returns on His white horse in Revelation 19?
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
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The day of the Lord lasts for eternity. It has segments to it which different events happen. See my chart below.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is that the resurrection/rapture event takes places before the day of the Lord begins.
2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 is that Jesus will return in power and great glory.
2 Peter 3:10-13 is about the destruction of this present earth and its heaven. To take place right before the Great White Throne Judgment.
So you are FAILING BIG TIME when it comes to Matt 25:44-46
At least you are honest
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Your chart is messed up. Scripture overrides and exposes it. The destruction when Jesus comes is sudden and wholesale and no wicked escape it. You say many escape. I go with God.
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Address the Op and stop derailing.So you are FAILING BIG TIME when it comes to Matt 25:44-46
At least you are honest
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The overlooking of , which has led to the acceptance of , sins and errors within the churchSo you are FAILING BIG TIME when it comes to Matt 25:44-46
At least you are honest
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
is hate and not the love of GOD .
And now a word .
Ye shall not hate . Yet you all thinks it lovey doing folks to God to allow them to remain in sin
and error and always casting stones at the few who come in to correct and to expose the sin and error .
Ye shall NOT HATE your neighbor in your heart but you SHALL correct him and NOT ALLOW sin upon him ,
has become DONT JUDGE your neighbor . someone been lying to this church age .
seeker friendly was truly , and i do say truly , A DISASTER .
And all it did was open the door wide and broad to sin and now even to UNBELIEF in Christ JESUS
as the door has got so broad it says all religoins be coming to God in differing ways .
Someone been lying to this church age and worse many within it seem to love to have it so .
but what will they do in the end thereof ................................wailing will be heard from their lips on the DAY of JESUS CHRIST .
Again, you are refusing to address the Scriptures before you and just diverting off on tangents.
What do mean by "wholesale" ? Also, you claim I said many escape. Many who ? Also, I did not mention the word escape in my post. You also stated that Scripture overrides and exposes my chart. But you don't say what scripture or how that scripture overrides and exposes my chart. Please try to communicate better.
It is the same coming "for" and "with" His saints. There is only one coming. You do not grasp the apocalyptic nature of Revelation. It is written in a highly figurative and visionary manner. Check the rest of Scripture. It is not the symbol that matters it is the meaning of the symbol that matters. We are coming back in victory.
Your charts indicate and you have said many times that many wicked survive the Lord's coming. But the Bible shows none escape. So, your fight is with Scripture. Like most Pretribs you cannot address and exegete and embrace Scripture. You fight the wording in every text.
The reality is, when Jesus comes, He rescues all the elect and destroys all the wicked, before He pours out is final and wholesale wrath. That is the pattern of history. That is what Scripture teaches. There are no survivors.
I will put your beliefs to the test again with Holy Writ (one at a time):
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 proves Amil and forbids Pretrib and Premil. It says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
A very basic study of the passage will show that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 carries no support for the Pretrib paradigm, quite the opposite. It forbids it. There is no teaching on (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ in the passage. It must be forced into the sacred text.
The coming of the Lord is shown throughout Scripture to be both sudden and noisy. This text proves that Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and activate the rescue of the elect of God from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies it. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly and unprepared in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that we are told none escape ("they shall not escape"). This couldn't be clearer. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of survivors or a subsequent 7yrs trib.
Importantly, Paul is speaking here to Christians. He is exhorting the Thessalonian church to be attentive as this final day approaches. He urges them to be ready, watch and prepare. In doing so, he demolishes the Pretrib notion of two separate future comings of the Lord separated by seven years. Clearly, the Church can’t have been raptured seven-years previous to this final event (as Pretribs argue) as it expressly witnesses the arrival of the day of the Lord. The Pretrib theory renders this day meaningless to the Church of Jesus Christ who they believe are safely in heaven 7-years prior. However, Paul plainly requires the Church to watch and be ready for its appearing.
The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”
The catching away is the second coming. Read the text. This is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming.
This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.
There is a catching away ("rapture") here, but no tribulation period following. That is because it is ongoing since the early Church. If Pretrib was true, this is where you would find it, but no, It is not here. Neither can you add it to the inspired text. That is forbidden. What follows Christ's climactic appearing then? Total destruction!
I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.
You cannot deviate off your soundbites like the politicians. LOL.
Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ‘one shall be taken’, and ‘the other shall be left’. Two women shall be grinding together; the ‘one shall be taken’, and ‘the other left’. Two men shall be in the field; the ‘one shall be taken’, and ‘the other left’. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”
- How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
- How many wicked survived in Sodom?
Jesus said, in Luke 17:29-30, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” This agrees with Revelation 19, 2 Peter 3 and countless other similar texts that show this fiery end to the tribulation period.
There's no space for your seven year tribulation. There's no space for your 3rd coming.
The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.
Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).
Q. Why must we “remember Lot's wife”? What befell her?
She got caught in the escape out of Sodom because her heart was still there. Despite being fully aware of the impending destruction, Lot's wife’s heart was located in Sodom and towards the awful iniquity; this was despite the fact that she also desired to be with the people of God. Notwithstanding, Genesis 19:26 says of Lot, “his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.” Her foolish refusal to once-and-for-all turn her back on Sodom caused her to be instantly and completely destroyed. Through her un-preparedness, she was immediately cast into a lost hell – damned and doomed for all eternity – without hope and without Christ.
Give me some of your clear references to your 3rd coming then - if they exist.
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