Once saved always saved
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Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things doth YHVH hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
These six things doth YHVH hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
27 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Unless you as an individual are for some reason not included in the “all” that the Father is greater than...that being said...not even you can snatch yourself out of His hand.
I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition. I watched my mother rededicate her life to Christ probably half a dozen times. What I never saw was my mother truly walking with Christ. Was she a believer? Probably, that's not my call. If she was, she bore little fruit and was quickly pruned. She died at the early age of 41.
I'm not sure why I mentioned this, except that it seems to me that OSAS doctrine can be a doubled edged sword.
For those who understand it correctly, it is the blessed hope that causes us to endure.
For those who do not it will either lead to licentiousness, self condemnation, or self righteous judgment of others.
To open a thread for the sole purpose of instigating (as the history of former threads would indicate) a debate for which there will be no resolution, and will certainly lead to much bitter disagreement between brethren, IMHO is the precise definition of what was being warned against in the passage I quoted above.
But of course, everyone is free to carry on in whatever way they so desire.
As for me, I've offered my two cents and will now quietly show myself to the door.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
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Hasn‘t this been done to death? Anything new to add to the literal 100’s of pages of discussion and debate?
Moonwood
New Member
The New Testament never treats salvation as a one‑time transaction guaranteeing automatic entrance into Heaven; it presents a dynamic life of grace that must be faithfully lived to the end. Jesus Himself locates final salvation in future perseverance — “he who perseveres to the end will be saved” — which rules out the idea of claiming the final reward prematurely. Paul reinforces this distinction by teaching a real, present salvation (grace, forgiveness, the sealing of the Spirit) while also insisting that final salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith. Colossians 1:22-23 states plainly that Christ will present believers holy if they remain steadfast, and 1 Corinthians 15:2 warns that the Gospel saves only if one holds fast to it. Even 2 Timothy 2:12 ties reigning with Christ — the destiny of the saved — to endurance, contrasting it with being denied by Him. Far from supporting “once saved always saved,” Paul’s theology binds final salvation to persevering fidelity, empowered by grace but never detached from the believer’s ongoing cooperation with that grace. Therefore, no one can declare their own final salvation — or anyone else’s — while their earthly life is still unfolding. Scripture locates the moment of final salvation not in a past decision but in the consummation of one’s life, when perseverance has been completed and immortality has begun.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Reader,
Instead of discussing the OSAS nonsense, (kicking the dead horse)..... lets just look at what is needful to know.
Which is.... "Eternal Security". and Salvation are both : Jesus on The Cross.
That's not a work you can do for yourself, Reader.
Do you not understand that when you are trying to keep from losing salvation, or you want to try to falsely prove you can lose it, you are denying Jesus Himself as Eternal Salvation?
Do you really want to face eternity having done that on Forums for years, because you are literally so theologically ignorant and so carnal that you think its so oh so funny to constantly stir up this ignorant argument pot with your Devil stick?
Reader, .. GOD wants your trust, = your faith......and that means you trust in CHRIST to KEEP YOU SAVED........not just start your Salvation.
And when you don't trust Jesuis to keep you saved, its not because God has an issue, its because you are the problem.
= YOU.
You BELIEVE WRONG.= Your FAITH is BROKEN.
Listen,
when a person has become "Saved", this means that they are become Joined Spiritually (Born again)......to God Himself.
You are saved instantly and only ONCE..... and This is taught in different ways in the NT......including becoming "born again" and "IN Christ"., and "ONE with God". and "Sealed unto the day of redemption" which is referring to the Holy Spirit doing the "sealing".
Salvation is also taught correctly as receiving "The Gift of Righteousness".
Christians have to come to the correct understanding that they are bought (redeemed) with the Blood of Jesus.
Christians are "blood bought". "bought with a Price".....and they are under new ownership, and under a new covenant, and God who is now the Owner of the born again Spirit, has become so forever.
Salvation is Eternal Life and Eternal Life is not Temporary.
You can't stop being born again.
"well, Behold, what if i walk away from my faith".
OK, well, Faith didnt save you....= Jesus Did.......... and He's inside you, and He's not going anywhere if you are truly born again.
Now if you are just some water baptized religious person, then im not talking to you.
Im talking to a REAL Christian who is confused, and you need to get OUT of your Hebrews 6:1 Carnal Baby DIAPERS....and stay out.
Reader,
Carnal Christians (baby Christians) have this wrong thinking, wrong believing.........in that they feel that they are in control of their Salvation . But the fact is, the only thing a Chritian is in control of, is what Theology they LEARN and what Theology they PURSUE, and if they learn wrong, and pursue wrong, then this is why they dont Trust in Christ to keep them saved.
Moonwood
New Member
Your entire argument rests on a premise the New Testament never teaches: that salvation is a one‑time transaction guaranteeing automatic entrance into Heaven. Scripture consistently rejects that idea.
1. Jesus Himself teaches future, conditional salvation
You call perseverance “carnal baby thinking,” but Jesus makes perseverance the condition for final salvation:
That is not a description of a past event.
It is a requirement tied to the end of one’s earthly life.
Jesus also warns that believers who are truly “in Him” can be cut off:
A branch “in Him” is not a fake Christian.
It is a real believer.
And Jesus says such a believer can be cut off.
Your system simply denies His words.
2. Paul distinguishes present salvation from final salvation
You collapse everything into one moment. Paul does not.
Paul teaches a real, present salvation — forgiveness, justification, the Spirit’s sealing — but he never equates this with guaranteed final salvation. He repeatedly conditions the final outcome on perseverance:
- Colossians 1:22-23 Christ will present you holy if you continue in the faith.
- 1 Corinthians 15:2 The Gospel saves you if you hold fast to it.
- 2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we will reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will deny us.
They are apostolic doctrine.
3. The “seal of the Spirit” is not a guarantee of final salvation
You treat “sealed unto the day of redemption” as if it means “cannot fall away.”
Paul never says that.
Paul does say:
A warning only makes sense if the danger is real.
If the seal guaranteed final salvation, the warning would be pointless.
4. Union with Christ is real — and can be severed
You insist, “You can’t stop being born again.”
Paul says the opposite:
Paul is speaking to believers who already “stand by faith.”
He warns them that they can be cut off.
Your theology simply refuses to accept Paul’s words.
5. Hebrews 6 is not “baby diapers” — it is mature doctrine
You dismiss Hebrews 6 as “carnal thinking,” but the passage describes people who genuinely experienced God:
- enlightened
- tasted the heavenly gift
- became partakers of the Holy Spirit
- tasted the powers of the age to come
They are people who truly received grace.
But Hebrews teaches that after receiving these gifts, they fell away — not because grace failed, but because they chose to abandon the God who had enlightened them.
The text does not say they were “Spirit‑filled while falling away.” It says they were Spirit‑touched, Spirit‑enlightened, Spirit‑empowered — and then turned their back on what they had received.
The author warns that such a choice is possible — and catastrophic.
Mocking this warning is not spiritual maturity.
6. Trusting Christ includes obeying His warnings
You claim that believing perseverance matters is “broken faith.”
Scripture says vigilance is part of trusting Christ:
- Philippians 2:12 — “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
- 1 Peter 5:8 — “Be sober and vigilant.”
- Matthew 26:41 — “Watch and pray.”
They treat it as normal Christian life.
A theology that denies Christ’s warnings is not “trusting Christ.”
It is refusing to listen to Him.
Your argument reduces salvation to a single past moment and treats all biblical warnings as irrelevant. The New Testament does the opposite:
- Salvation begins in the past.
- It is lived in the present.
- It is consummated in the future.
- And it is inseparable from persevering fidelity.
No one can declare their own final salvation while their earthly life is still unfolding.
Scripture locates final salvation not at conversion but at the completion of perseverance.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
First of all, i made no argument, as these types of Threads, written by Religious Cult members, are not supportive of an actual argument.
So, you might want to think about that before you post again, and fail again.
What i did was simply provide The Gospel = for a real bible student, and not a cult member such as yourself @Moonwood , = that Jesus is Salvation.
Therefore, when a person does not understand the Gospel, and they are a religious pretender who is teaching "man made" "perserverance of the saint" doctrine, that is false, then, of course they are going to post their cult leader's demonic version of Salvation.
So, you and your little cheerleader @Kayla McCanny , will be doing that a lot more while you're still here.
@Moonwood........ here is something you'll now learn.
Christian's Lead people to CHRIST
And religious pretenders, lead people to Calvinism (TULIP).
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Lets look AGAIN. = at what is needful to know.
Which is.... "Eternal Security". and Salvation are both : Jesus on The Cross.
That's not a work you can do for yourself, Reader.
So....Do you not understand that when you are trying to keep from losing salvation, or you want to try to falsely prove you can lose it, you are denying Jesus Himself as Eternal Salvation?
Do you really want to face eternity having done that on Forums for years, because you are literally so theologically ignorant and so carnal that you think its so oh so funny to constantly stir up this ignorant argument pot with your Devil stick?
Reader, .. GOD wants your trust, = your faith......and that means you TRUST in CHRIST to KEEP YOU SAVED........not just start your Salvation.
And when you don't trust Jesuis to keep you saved, its not because God has an issue, its because you are the problem.
= YOU.
You BELIEVE WRONG.= Your FAITH is BROKEN.
Listen,
when a person has become "Saved", this means that they are become Joined Spiritually (Born again)......to God Himself.
You are saved instantly and only ONCE..... and This is taught in different ways in the NT......including becoming "born again" and "IN Christ"., and "ONE with God". and "Sealed unto the day of redemption" which is referring to the Holy Spirit doing the "sealing".
Salvation is also taught correctly as receiving "The Gift of Righteousness".
Christians have to come to the correct understanding that they are bought (redeemed) with the Blood of Jesus.
Christians are "blood bought". "bought with a Price".....and they are under new ETERNAL ownership, and under a new covenant, and God who is now the Owner of the born again Spirit, has become so forever.
Salvation is Eternal Life and Eternal Life is not Temporary.
You can't stop being born again.
"well, Behold, what if i walk away from my faith".
OK, well, Faith didnt save you....= Jesus Did.......... and He's inside you, and He's not going anywhere if you are truly born again.
Now if you are just some water baptized religious person, then im not talking to you.
Im talking to a REAL Christian who is confused, and you need to get OUT of your Hebrews 6:1 Carnal Baby DIAPERS....and stay out.
Reader,
Carnal Christians (baby Christians) have this wrong thinking, wrong believing.........in that they feel that they are in control of their Salvation .
But the fact is, the only thing a Chritian is in control of, is what Theology they LEARN and what Theology they PURSUE, and if they learn wrong, and pursue wrong, then this is why they dont Trust in Christ to keep them saved and it also explain why their discipleship is a FAILURE.
Dont be that one....
Which is.... "Eternal Security". and Salvation are both : Jesus on The Cross.
That's not a work you can do for yourself, Reader.
So....Do you not understand that when you are trying to keep from losing salvation, or you want to try to falsely prove you can lose it, you are denying Jesus Himself as Eternal Salvation?
Do you really want to face eternity having done that on Forums for years, because you are literally so theologically ignorant and so carnal that you think its so oh so funny to constantly stir up this ignorant argument pot with your Devil stick?
Reader, .. GOD wants your trust, = your faith......and that means you TRUST in CHRIST to KEEP YOU SAVED........not just start your Salvation.
And when you don't trust Jesuis to keep you saved, its not because God has an issue, its because you are the problem.
= YOU.
You BELIEVE WRONG.= Your FAITH is BROKEN.
Listen,
when a person has become "Saved", this means that they are become Joined Spiritually (Born again)......to God Himself.
You are saved instantly and only ONCE..... and This is taught in different ways in the NT......including becoming "born again" and "IN Christ"., and "ONE with God". and "Sealed unto the day of redemption" which is referring to the Holy Spirit doing the "sealing".
Salvation is also taught correctly as receiving "The Gift of Righteousness".
Christians have to come to the correct understanding that they are bought (redeemed) with the Blood of Jesus.
Christians are "blood bought". "bought with a Price".....and they are under new ETERNAL ownership, and under a new covenant, and God who is now the Owner of the born again Spirit, has become so forever.
Salvation is Eternal Life and Eternal Life is not Temporary.
You can't stop being born again.
"well, Behold, what if i walk away from my faith".
OK, well, Faith didnt save you....= Jesus Did.......... and He's inside you, and He's not going anywhere if you are truly born again.
Now if you are just some water baptized religious person, then im not talking to you.
Im talking to a REAL Christian who is confused, and you need to get OUT of your Hebrews 6:1 Carnal Baby DIAPERS....and stay out.
Reader,
Carnal Christians (baby Christians) have this wrong thinking, wrong believing.........in that they feel that they are in control of their Salvation .
But the fact is, the only thing a Chritian is in control of, is what Theology they LEARN and what Theology they PURSUE, and if they learn wrong, and pursue wrong, then this is why they dont Trust in Christ to keep them saved and it also explain why their discipleship is a FAILURE.
Dont be that one....
I don't mean for people to get snappy at eachother I just really want to know both sides so I can decide on my own. Thanks
Why? There are already a few dozen of these OSAS threads
Behold
Well-Known Member
Listen little one.......once you started posting "LIKES", that take a SIDE..........which you've now done........then you are definitely not just here to Learn.
So, we real Christians on the forum would appreicate it, if you can try to be more honest about what you are actually doing here.
Moonwood
New Member
You did make arguments — several of them. You asserted that salvation is a one‑time irreversible event, that perseverance is man‑made, that real believers cannot fall away, that biblical warnings do not apply to Christians, and that opposing your view is "cult doctrine." Those are theological claims, not neutral observations. I responded to the claims you made, not to a straw man.
You then repeat those same claims: that perseverance is a “man‑made doctrine,” that real Christians cannot fall away, and that pointing people to Christ means denying every biblical warning about remaining faithful. Those are theological claims, not neutral observations, and they contradict the explicit teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Saying “Jesus is Salvation” does not eliminate the conditions Jesus Himself attaches to final salvation. Christ teaches that perseverance is required: “He who perseveres to the end will be saved.” He also warns that real believers — branches truly “in Him” — can be cut off if they cease bearing fruit. Calling these teachings “cult doctrine” does not make them disappear; it simply refuses to accept Christ’s own words.
The apostles teach perseverance because Christ does. Paul ties final salvation to continued fidelity, saying Christ will present believers holy if they continue in the faith, that the Gospel saves if they hold fast to it, and that those who deny Christ will be denied by Him. These are not Calvinist verses; they are apostolic warnings. Your system requires treating all of them as irrelevant. Even the “seal of the Spirit,” which you treat as a guarantee of automatic final salvation, is accompanied by a warning not to grieve the Spirit. A warning is meaningless if the danger is impossible. Likewise, Paul explicitly teaches that union with Christ can be severed: believers who “stand by faith” must continue in God’s kindness, otherwise they too will be cut off. Your theology demands that Paul be wrong.
Hebrews 6 is not “baby diapers.” It describes people who were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, became partakers of the Holy Spirit, and experienced the powers of the age to come — and then fell away. These are not “water‑baptized pretenders.” They are people who truly received grace and then rejected it. The author warns that such a choice is possible and catastrophic. Mocking the warning does not erase it. Trusting Christ includes obeying Christ’s warnings. Scripture treats vigilance as part of faith, not as unbelief: believers are told to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, to be sober and vigilant, and to watch and pray. The apostles do not treat vigilance as “broken faith.” They treat it as obedience.
Your position reduces salvation to a single past moment and treats all biblical warnings as irrelevant. Scripture presents salvation as initiated by grace, lived through fidelity, and completed at the end of life. Grace empowers perseverance, but grace does not eliminate it. Denying perseverance is not “leading people to Christ.” It is refusing to listen to Christ.
Behold
Well-Known Member
I posted Hebrews 6:1.
Read more carefully.
Listen Cult Member @Moonwood .
You are teaching a doctrine of devils........ (as found in Heb 13:9:). (KJV) .
You are teaching the God forsaken <> Satan Inspired Theological VOMIT that is known as TULIP......which is Hyper-Calvinism.
This Theology is a CANCER on the Body of Christ, and needs to be REMOVED forever.
So. This is what you are teaching, as Calvin's DUPE.
The """"perseverance of the saints""" is a core doctrine of demonic Calvinism (Hyper), forming the final "P" in the TULIP acronym.
Trust us when we tell you that your Calvinism is NOT invited to a Chrisitan Forum by the Holy Spirit, but that wont keep you from spewing it out from end to end, here.
Fella, Your Calvinsim is NOT Related to Jesus's Salvation or Paul's Gospel, or NT Truth.
You are just one more deceived Hyper Calvinist DUPE....and unfortunatley for you, that is perhaps the strongest Demomic Theological Stronghold you could have stepped in, a while back, when you were looking around for something to believe.
And Satan saw you lookking and He gave you a PRIZE.
Its one of the Devil's finest Theologies.
And now when you open a bible, all you can see in it is "elect" and "Predestined" as that is how Calvinism rots your brain.
So, now you are so very blinded within that Demonic madness, and fella, its very difficult to find your way out of that particular and specific demonic Darkness.
It woudl have been better for you to have become a deceived Mary Cult member, or a Mormon.........as those are often reachable with NT Truth.....but a Calvinist.......they generally can't ever be reached as the demonic stronghold in their MIND is too ROOTED.
I recall some years ago, i was dealing with an Actor, in California.
He is the Boy in the '80's movie....>"The Boy Who Could Fly"............ i realy like this movie, and i found out that he's up to his theological eyebrows with John Calvin's Theological DUNG, and i tried to bring him back to the Light.
He was one of the first people i ever tried to reach out and drag away from Demonic Calvinism........and that was many years ago.
Ive now learned over time that a Calvinist <> Hyper Calvinist, is pretty much a goner..........They can't hear.....They can't See.......They can't read......and they can't discern.
All they can do is try to lead weak believers or unbelievers into Calvin's Hellish Theology, that is also evolved as Hyper-Calvinism, and no doubt you are absolutely one of those.... @Moonwood
I'm trying to see this maybe as a onee would that has a healthy relationship with their child since we are God's children. I'm trying to view it
2 Peter 2:19-22
King James Version
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
King James Version
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Moonwood
New Member
You keep calling me a Calvinist, but I haven’t argued a single point of Calvinism. I’ve quoted Jesus, Paul, and Hebrews. Perseverance is not “TULIP”; it’s the teaching of Scripture and the historic Christian Church. Labeling me a Calvinist doesn’t answer the passages I cited, and it doesn’t make your claims biblical. If you want to discuss the text, then address the text instead of assigning me to a category I never claimed.
You also quoted only the sentence “Hebrews 6 is not ‘baby diapers,’” but you didn’t address a single word of the passage itself. Hebrews 6 describes people who were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, became partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the powers of the age to come — and then fell away. Instead of responding to those phrases, you shifted into personal attacks, accusations, and name‑calling. None of that answers Hebrews 6. None of it explains why the author describes people who genuinely experienced the Holy Spirit and then fell away. None of it engages the warnings Jesus and the apostles give about perseverance.
If your position is biblical, then deal with the biblical text. Show how Hebrews 6 describes “pretenders.” Show how Jesus’ warning that branches in Him can be cut off is “demonic.” Show how Paul’s conditional statements — “if you continue,” “if you hold fast,” “if we endure” — fit your claim that real believers cannot fall away. If you want to discuss Scripture, then address Scripture. Personal insults are not exegesis, and they don’t make the warnings disappear.
Taken
Well-Known Member
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