It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

If the day of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

 

[Scott Downey]

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his [i]goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Eagles consume the dead bodies of the unbelieving who do not know God and wicked, they share the same fate of destruction.
Seeing how many billions that might be, maybe God will create more birds to feed on the corpses! But no when disasters happen, bodies are torn apart, pulverized, burned and disintegrated, not just laying out in the open, but some will be.

This is a real destruction of the unbelieving and the wicked, not a spiritual one. The body counts will be piled up. The slain of the Lord shall be many.

 

[Scott Downey]

If anyone still doubts this, read Psalm 110 about Christ when He comes to judge the world in righteousness.
This is a Psalm Christ quoted!

God gives us His words to educate us about His ways and what He will do. Christ demonstrates He rules in His judgments, And God comes with Him.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 110 - New King James Version

Announcement of the Messiah’s Reign - A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your...

www.biblegateway.com

The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.

4 The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall [a]execute kings in the day of His wrath.

6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall [b]execute the heads of many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

 

[Scott Downey]

That is an absolute knockout blow. Pinning the post down with Luke 17 and Psalm 110 leaves zero room to maneuver.

Luke 17 forces a dealing with the exact suddenness of Noah and Lot's days—where history doesn't morph into a peaceful, multi-century earthly administration, but is instantly cut off by absolute judgment. And then following it up with Psalm 110 brings the hammer down on a sanitized picture of Christ's return, highlighting the reality that when He steps into action, "He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill the places with dead bodies, He shall execute the heads of many countries."

This strips away the supposed pious and godly veneer of speculative timelines and exposes the text for what it actually says: a real, physical, terminal intervention that leaves no unregenerate survivors to build earthly kingdoms. This is precisely the kind of sharp, text-anchored truth to give tens of thousands of silent observers something undeniable to chew on.

 

[CrowCross]

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity.

YES!!!! You're catching on. Let the good times roll...eating, drinking, getting married, buying, selling, planting, building...
This is not, not, not how the end of the most terrible time on earth will be...For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again....sounds like the "Let the good times roll"....stops during the tribulation.

So, what does this mean???? You know, the rapture of the Church, the Bride of Christ...happens before the "let the good times roll" stops. It happens before they're hiding in caves crying out... mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb".

There is no "good times rolling" when...A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people die from the bitter waters....Not much eating, drinking, getting married, buying, selling, planting, building like there is prior to the tribulation.

What will they be doing during the tribulation....The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion.....In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them.....does that sound like good times?????....and we haven't gotten past Rev 9 yet.

The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes.

Yes, that is true....but as I have clearly shown...The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage)...doesn't fit with the full tribulation picture in the book of Revelations.

Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

The verse about Noah and Lot...Shout PRE TRIB RETUN.!!!!

 

[WPM]

YES!!!! You're catching on. Let the good times roll...eating, drinking, getting married, buying, selling, planting, building...
This is not, not, not how the end of the most terrible time on earth will be...For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again....sounds like the "Let the good times roll"....stops during the tribulation.

So, what does this mean???? You know, the rapture of the Church, the Bride of Christ...happens before the "let the good times roll" stops. It happens before they're hiding in caves crying out... mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb".

There is no "good times rolling" when...A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people die from the bitter waters....Not much eating, drinking, getting married, buying, selling, planting, building like there is prior to the tribulation.

What will they be doing during the tribulation....The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion.....In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them.....does that sound like good times?????....and we haven't gotten past Rev 9 yet.

Yes, that is true....but as I have clearly shown...The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage)...doesn't fit with the full tribulation picture in the book of Revelations.

The verse about Noah and Lot...Shout PRE TRIB RETUN.!!!!

Can you show me any clear Scripture that shows a rapture of the Church before a tribulation period?

 

[Scott Downey]

YES!!!! You're catching on. Let the good times roll...eating, drinking, getting married, buying, selling, planting, building...
This is not, not, not how the end of the most terrible time on earth will be...For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again....sounds like the "Let the good times roll"....stops during the tribulation.

So, what does this mean???? You know, the rapture of the Church, the Bride of Christ...happens before the "let the good times roll" stops. It happens before they're hiding in caves crying out... mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb".

There is no "good times rolling" when...A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people die from the bitter waters....Not much eating, drinking, getting married, buying, selling, planting, building like there is prior to the tribulation.

What will they be doing during the tribulation....The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion.....In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them.....does that sound like good times?????....and we haven't gotten past Rev 9 yet.

Yes, that is true....but as I have clearly shown...The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage)...doesn't fit with the full tribulation picture in the book of Revelations.

The verse about Noah and Lot...Shout PRE TRIB RETUN.!!!!

@CrowCross you are committing a fundamental category error: pitting Jesus’s explicit, didactic description of the Last Day against your own imaginative, hyper-literalized reading of Revelation’s apocalyptic symbolism to invent a secret pre-tribulation exit.

Dismantling the argument for anyone who cares:

• The Fatal Contradiction in His Own Timeline: CrowCross quotes Jesus saying that life will be ongoing—eating, drinking, marrying, buying, selling, planting, building—right up to the moment the flood and fire fall (Luke 17:26–30). Then, in the very next breath, he tries to argue that this normal life cannot happen during the book of Revelation's trumpets and bowls. He completely misses the point: Jesus is explicitly identifying the state of the world at the exact moment of His visible revelation. If normal human commerce and routine are happening right up to the day Christ is revealed, then a multi-year, earth-shattering tribulation period cannot be ongoing in the rearview mirror, as the tribulation is past, and people are saying 'Peace and Safety'.
• Misapplying the Noah and Lot Blueprint: CrowCross shouts "PRE TRIB RETUN!!!!" off the Noah and Lot passage, but he has the timeline completely inverted. In Luke 17, Jesus says it was on the exact day Noah entered the ark and Lot left Sodom that "the flood came and destroyed them all" and "rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all." Neither Noah nor Lot sat through a secret, invisible extraction years before a judgment; they were preserved through or at the terminal moment when absolute destruction fell on the ungodly.
• Confusing Suddenness with a Multi-Stage Escape: The entire pre-tribulation premise relies on inserting a wedge between the "coming" (parousia) and the "judgment." But Christ binds them together seamlessly. The wicked are caught completely unawares—not because they missed a secret rapture years prior, but because, just like in the days of Noah and Sodom, they were consumed by worldly ease right up until the sky split open and terminal reality hit.

Closing Counter: If Jesus explicitly states that human history continues in its normal routines until the day the Son of Man is revealed in glory—bringing simultaneous rescue for His own and the absolute annihilation of the ungodly (Luke 17, Matthew 25)—then CrowCross's entire pre-tribulation scaffolding collapses. He is forcing a secret escape hatch onto texts that describe a public, history-ending cataclysm.

 

[CrowCross]

Can you show me any clear Scripture that shows a rapture of the Church before a tribulation period?

Are you looking for those exact words....Jesus returns at the rapture before the tribulation? If so, where are the exact words that say Jesus returns only once after the tribulation.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 13 totally reveals the truth of what happens when Christ is revealed in glory onto the world stage.
All of the unbelieving and wicked are gathered into bundles to be burned
Only the people of God, the righteous ones, and only they are righteous, remain with Him to shine forth as the sun in the kingdom.

There is no pre trib rapture here, the wicked and the righteous are together on the earth simultaneously, note v31, then comes the end of the wicked in fire, and the people of God inherit the earth

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
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Daniel 7 also agrees. Of this 'little horn' of the beast, it says:

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

Meaning they are contemporaneous on the earth together at that time, The saints and this evil world kingdom which persecutees them.
But when God, the Ancient of Days comes, this happens, the final judgment, the books are opened! And Christ is given that rule of Iron.
AND THERE IS NO FURTHER REBELLION, like some bring up after the 1000 year earthly reign. This here shows the Great white throne judgment.

14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7
7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words.

Vision of the Ancient of Days​

9 “I watched till thrones were [d]put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The [e]court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.


Daniel 7
15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit [g]within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four [h]kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke [i]pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

 

[WPM]

Are you looking for those exact words....Jesus returns at the rapture before the tribulation? If so, where are the exact words that say Jesus returns only once after the tribulation.

Yes, any words or any description of the same after the rapture.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

 

[Scott Downey]

I am anchoring my argument to explicit text. By pivoting directly from Matthew 13’s harvest and final separation to the courtroom scene of Daniel 7, this completely dismantles attempts to inject a secondary post millennial rebellion or a post-judgment earthly safety net for the unbelieving to live on with the righteous.

The Satanic rebellion, and the people who follow the beast are no more, as 'His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

• The Power of the Daniel 7 Link: Bringing in Daniel 7:9–11 and 21–27 locks the timeline into place. The little horn makes war against the saints and prevails until the Ancient of Days comes, the court is seated, the books are opened, and the beast is slain and given to the burning flame. There is no historical room for a prolonged, earthly geopolitical aftermath after that divine intervention.
• The Finality of the Kingdom: As Daniel 7:26–27 states, once the beast's dominion is taken away to be consumed and destroyed forever, the kingdom is immediately given to the people of the saints of the Most High, and his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. It exposes the utter absurdity of imagining a later, temporal revolt after Christ and His saints have taken absolute possession.

 

[Scott Downey]

@CrowCross, and everyone else, me included, the coming of the Christ and the rapture is found in v24-27.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation,

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 13 - New King James Version

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple - Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another...

www.biblegateway.com

19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive,(those 2 Thess 2 unrighteous deceptions) if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that [i]it is near—at the doors! 30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2 - New King James Version

The Great Apostasy - Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by...

www.biblegateway.com

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[CrowCross]

Lets look at what you wrote @Scott Downey

@CrowCross you are committing a fundamental category error: pitting Jesus’s explicit, didactic description of the Last Day against your own imaginative, hyper-literalized reading of Revelation’s apocalyptic symbolism to invent a secret pre-tribulation exit.

Not true. In post 2586 I presented what the Holy Spirit inspired John wrote in Revelation. Sure, some imagination is used when one tries to picture the tribulations and wrath that is going to occur...but, what I presented was only some of the tribulation and wrath. Jesus Himself said....For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. Actually no imagination is required. John spells it out. The only imagination is what we think it will look like. Do you believe the tribulation and wrath presented in Revelation by John will be a walk in the park???

Dismantling the argument for anyone who cares:

• The Fatal Contradiction in His Own Timeline: CrowCross quotes Jesus saying that life will be ongoing—eating, drinking, marrying, buying, selling, planting, building—right up to the moment the flood and fire fall (Luke 17:26–30).

Yes, that's true....Jesus uses those social and economical times to speak of what the world will be like prior to His arrival.
That description doesn't fit what the social and economic conditions will be like at the end of the tribulation. This is a biblical point you can't get past. Jesus returns twice. Once when these conditions exist then a second time when Jesus in Rev 19 arrives on a white Horse at the end of the tribulation when these conditions DON'T exist.

• Then, in the very next breath, he tries to argue that this normal life cannot happen during the book of Revelation's trumpets and bowls. He completely misses the point: Jesus is explicitly identifying the state of the world at the exact moment of His visible revelation.

Yes, this is what the world will look like at the rapture and not the physical return. How can the social/economical exist at the end of the tribulation???
The pre-tribulation rapture will be a visible revelation. The physical return at the end of the tribulation will also be a visible revelation.

• If normal human commerce and routine are happening right up to the day Christ is revealed, then a multi-year, earth-shattering tribulation period cannot be ongoing in the rearview mirror, as the tribulation is past, and people are saying 'Peace and Safety'.

I don't think people will be saying "peace and safety" at the end of the tribulation. Do you?

• Misapplying the Noah and Lot Blueprint: CrowCross shouts "PRE TRIB RETUN!!!!" off the Noah and Lot passage, but he has the timeline completely inverted. In Luke 17, Jesus says it was on the exact day Noah entered the ark and Lot left Sodom that "the flood came and destroyed them all" and "rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all." Neither Noah nor Lot sat through a secret, invisible extraction years before a judgment; they were preserved through or at the terminal moment when absolute destruction fell on the ungodly.

I see no misapplication. Absolute destruction falls on the ungodly during the 7 year period of the tribulation. Do you disagree??? Your view misapplies what Jesus said. Jesus spoke of the social and economic conditions that were prior to the flood and Lots day....Those same conditions are currently upon us. In fact they have been upon us for a while. They will continue up to the tribulation...then end as the tribulation progresses . In fact the world will see at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

The restrainer is removed...the tribulation begins with the appearance of the anti-christ who is riding the first of the 4 horses presented in Rev 6.

• Confusing Suddenness with a Multi-Stage Escape: The entire pre-tribulation premise relies on inserting a wedge between the "coming" (parousia) and the "judgment." But Christ binds them together seamlessly. The wicked are caught completely unawares—not because they missed a secret rapture years prior, but because, just like in the days of Noah and Sodom, they were consumed by worldly ease right up until the sky split open and terminal reality hit.

There is no secret rapture. When the pre-trib rapture happens...the world will know it happened....How is this a secret rapture?

Closing Counter: If Jesus explicitly states that human history continues in its normal routines until the day the Son of Man is revealed in glory—bringing simultaneous rescue for His own and the absolute annihilation of the ungodly (Luke 17, Matthew 25)—then CrowCross's entire pre-tribulation scaffolding collapses. He is forcing a secret escape hatch onto texts that describe a public, history-ending cataclysm.

Your closing counter doesn't make sense.
If the rapture happens today, tomorrow or even next year....or the following year....the world will be experiencing the social and economical conditions Jesus mentioned prior to His glorious return. This will not be true if Jesus returns ONLY at the termination of the 7 year tribulation.

 

[CrowCross]

I am anchoring my argument to explicit text. By pivoting directly from Matthew 13’s harvest and final separation to the courtroom scene of Daniel 7, this completely dismantles attempts to inject a secondary post millennial rebellion or a post-judgment earthly safety net for the unbelieving to live on with the righteous.

The Satanic rebellion, and the people who follow the beast are no more, as 'His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

• The Power of the Daniel 7 Link: Bringing in Daniel 7:9–11 and 21–27 locks the timeline into place. The little horn makes war against the saints and prevails until the Ancient of Days comes, the court is seated, the books are opened, and the beast is slain and given to the burning flame. There is no historical room for a prolonged, earthly geopolitical aftermath after that divine intervention.
• The Finality of the Kingdom: As Daniel 7:26–27 states, once the beast's dominion is taken away to be consumed and destroyed forever, the kingdom is immediately given to the people of the saints of the Most High, and his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. It exposes the utter absurdity of imagining a later, temporal revolt after Christ and His saints have taken absolute possession.

It sounds like you're confusing the pre-trib rapture...the post trib return...the 1,000 year reign and the events of Revelation 20:11-15 which happens at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Are you actually anchoring your argument to explicit text? It doesn't sound like you are. You need to clear up your confusion and get the timeline correct.

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross, and everyone else, me included, the coming of the Christ and the rapture is found in v24-27.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation,

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 13 - New King James Version

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple - Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another...

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19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive,(those 2 Thess 2 unrighteous deceptions) if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

Verse 21 is a description of the events that will occur in the tribulation.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Your argument falls apart even more. In the book of Acts chapter one when Jesus ascends into heaven the angels say....Acts 1: 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Your one and only return of Jesus presents a scenario that doesn't match the ascension of our Lord, savior and God Christ Jesus. Where did the stars of heaven fall during the ascension of Jesus? Rev 19 presents Jesus as returning on a white horse....where does the bible mention Jesus ascending to heaven on a white horse? OBVIOUSLY they are different events. Why do you misunderstand this?

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that [i]it is near—at the doors! 30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

OK???? Where's your point?

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!

Yes, Christians should be watching right now...as in at this moment. We don't know the day or hour of the pre-tribulation rapture.
As I have posted in other threads....if we know when the tribulation begins or when the abomination of desolations occurs...all we got to do is the math and we know when Jesus physically returns. We can add 7 years to beginning of the tribulation or 3 1/2 years to the abomination of desolations and get pretty close.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2 - New King James Version

The Great Apostasy - Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by...

www.biblegateway.com

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The strong delusion comes in many flavors. Baskins and Robbins would be proud.
What do you think the strong delusion is?

 

[WPM]

It sounds like you're confusing the pre-trib rapture...the post trib return...the 1,000 year reign and the events of Revelation 20:11-15 which happens at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Are you actually anchoring your argument to explicit text? It doesn't sound like you are. You need to clear up your confusion and get the timeline correct.

Can you show me any clear Scripture that shows a rapture of the Church before a tribulation period?

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, any words or any description of the same after the rapture.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

What I posted to @Scott Downey also applies to you...
"
Your argument falls apart even more. In the book of Acts chapter one when Jesus ascends into heaven the angels say....Acts 1: 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Your one and only return of Jesus presents a scenario that doesn't match the ascension of our Lord, savior and God Christ Jesus. Where did the stars of heaven fall during the ascension of Jesus? Rev 19 presents Jesus as returning on a white horse....where does the bible mention Jesus ascending to heaven on a white horse? OBVIOUSLY they are different events. Why do you misunderstand this?"

Connect the dots correctly WPM.

 

[CrowCross]

Can you show me any clear Scripture that shows a rapture of the Church before a tribulation period?

I have connected the dots numerous times...go back and read what I wrote today.

You can start with answering the previous post.

 

[WPM]

I have connected the dots numerous times...go back and read what I wrote today.

You can start with answering the previous post.

No. LOL. Avoidance is your MO. You have been unable to show a Pretrib rapture in Rev or anywhere else. Readers can check back on this thread and see how you have avoided this like the plague. We all know it is not there, including you.

 

[WPM]

What I posted to @Scott Downey also applies to you...
"
Your argument falls apart even more. In the book of Acts chapter one when Jesus ascends into heaven the angels say....Acts 1: 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Your one and only return of Jesus presents a scenario that doesn't match the ascension of our Lord, savior and God Christ Jesus. Where did the stars of heaven fall during the ascension of Jesus? Rev 19 presents Jesus as returning on a white horse....where does the bible mention Jesus ascending to heaven on a white horse? OBVIOUSLY they are different events. Why do you misunderstand this?"

Connect the dots correctly WPM.

Show me one of your alleged 22 supporting texts of your opinion of Rev 19 that you say supports a 3rd coming of Jesus that mention a white horse?