Jesus comes during the tribulation, before the great tribulation begins
There has always been tribulation in the world.
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Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ
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There has always been tribulation in the world.
The Light
Well-Known Member
This happens at the 6th seal. These are Jews being raptured.
No trumpets in 1 Thes 4:15-17. That is the trump of God or voice of God. I think you mean 1 Corinthian 15. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets by a man.
The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. The Church is gathered from heaven, and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude in Rev 7. The great multitude remains in heaven during the one year wrath of God. At the end of a year the armies of heaven follow Jesus to Armageddon.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Jesus comes before the great tribulation for the Church.
He comes at the 6th seal for the 12 tribes immediately after the great tribulation.
The 7th seal is opened and the one year wrath of God begins.
"Olive trees, lampstands" compares the two witnesses to Zerubbabel (governor) and Jeshua (high priest), who led rebuilding of the OId Testament temple (Ezra 5:2). It was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D., because of Jewish rebellion.
This comparison suggests the two witnesses similarly lead the rebuilding of the Jewish temple.
Davy
Well-Known Member
If you're trying to suggest that God's "two witnesses" of Revelation 11 was Old Testament history involving the building of the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, then that does not work. If you are suggesting that as a 'type'... for the "two witnesses" of Rev.11 at the end of this world, then that might be plausible.
Lord Jesus Christ is "THE BRANCH" of Zechariah 6 that will build the future Millennial temple of the Book of Ezekiel when He returns. And only He will be both High Priest and King at the same time upon His throne in Jerusalem. Zerubbabel never was KING in Jerusalem. No man has ever been both High Priest and King upon David's throne in Jerusalem.
Yes. His elect are His chosen, all whom Christ came to save.Jesus Institutes the Lord’s Supper
Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, [c]blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the [d]new covenant, which is shed for many for the [e]remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
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Not everyone believes the message of God, but the ELECT will believe and obtain salvation, while the rest remain blinded.
Romans 11
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
Isaiah 53:11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
v12 And He bore the sin of many,
He bears the iniquities of the elect of God, only they are forgiven, the wrath of God remains on the unbelieving, their sins remain on them.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
God does not condemn His elect
Romans 4
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 53 - New King James Version
The Sin-Bearing Messiah - Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is...www.biblegateway.com
The Sin-Bearing Messiah
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no [a]form or [b]comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no [c]beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and [d]rejected by men,
A Man of [e]sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our [g]griefs
And carried our [h]sorrows;
Yet we [i]esteemed Him stricken,
[j]Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded[k] for our transgressions,
He was [l]bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[m] we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord [n]has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from [o]prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And [p]they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 [r]He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the [s]spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
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I'm going to call this Schrödinger's trumpet. There are no trumpets AND a trumpet at the same time.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Will this help?
There are no trumpets blown by an angel in 1 Thes 4:15-17. That is the trump of God or voice of God in 1 Thes 4:15-17.
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All the trumps in Rev and the endtimes are trumps of God. Paul is just speaking of the last one and God does not blow any of the trumpets. They all are done by angels. It even mentions the voice of the archangel:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The voice of the angel is the sound of the trumpet. Same here:
Exo_19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Rev_8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
the voice of the archangel is that archangel blowing the trump and from Exodus we also see that a trumpet can have a voice from being blown.
Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
These verses speak of the same exact event.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
All three things are also the same thing.
The Light
Well-Known Member
It appears you do not understand what the trump of God Is. It is the voice of God.
Revelation 4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Here is 1 Thes 4:16. There is not a single word about a last trump. 1 Thes 4 is about the trump of God or Voice of God that sounds when Jesus comes for His bride, the Church.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
You missed something........ AND with the trump of God.
I have to think you know what the word AND means.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Did you stop reading???????????????????????????????????????????????
The trumpet is not an angel, it is God.
Exodus 19
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
You are missing some absolutely critical information.
and with the trump of God
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Not in the other passages. Those are angels sounding trumpets called the voice of the angels.
Nothing was missed, the angels that sound the trumpets also have the trumpets and they are God's trumpets.
Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
These verses speak of the same exact event at the last of the 7 trumps.
IMO:
o. One future rapture of believers (Revelation 14:14-16).
o. One future coming to earth of Jesus (Revelation 19:11-21).
o. Then 1000-year reign of Jesus (Revelation 20:6).
o Then new heavens and earth (Revelation 21:122:21).
o Then no more tears (Revelation 7:17, 21:4).
o. One future rapture of believers (Revelation 14:14-16).
o. One future coming to earth of Jesus (Revelation 19:11-21).
o. Then 1000-year reign of Jesus (Revelation 20:6).
o Then new heavens and earth (Revelation 21:122:21).
o Then no more tears (Revelation 7:17, 21:4).
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"Earth" in the New Testament is Greek γη = "land." There was no concept of planet earth in Biblical times
The bible is written by the Holy Spirit.
So no, you can not honestly say what you are presenting.
Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth
Jesus was ignorant of "earth" bring the "planet earth"?
He created it.
Jesus is God, no telling what he did and did not know during his incarnation, when he *emptied* himself (Philippians 2:7)
In any case, I was referring specifically to the *people* at that time. There are people today who do not believe the earth is spherical.
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Rebuilder454 noted:
<The Bible was written by men (2Peter 1:21), not by Jesus.>
They wrote "as they we carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2Peter 1:21).
<Jesus was ignorant of it?>
I have no idea what Jesus knew and did not know, other than what is indicated in the Bible.
<The Bible was written by men (2Peter 1:21), not by Jesus.>
They wrote "as they we carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2Peter 1:21).
<Jesus was ignorant of it?>
I have no idea what Jesus knew and did not know, other than what is indicated in the Bible.
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"Trumpet of God does not mean God is blowing the trumpet, rather it means God commands that it be blown:
Revelation 8:7 = first trump ("the first angel blew his trumpet")
Revelation 11:15 = seventh/last trump
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