Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[CrowCross]

On this forum certain post-trip and one who accepts AMillennialism asked for where the bible speaks of a Pre-tribulation rapture.

Here is my response.

The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation. The bible also doesn't say outright there is a trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, if you connect the dots a Christian can understand the basic principles of the Godhead.

When the dots surround the rapture of the church are connected the pre-trib rapture becomes obvious.

For example I have shown you the bible presents Jesus as returning on a white horse in Rev 19 and another return where Jesus isn't riding a white horse. I've even presented you with depictions of the event. No white horse at the rapture while defections show a white horse at the Rev 19 return. That's one dot.

I've presented you with a social economic picture mentioned by Christ Jesus that speaks of His return and describes it like the days of Noah and not......which don't align with the social economic days of the end of the tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been presented several verses that show Christians....the bride of Christ... are not destined for wrath or the trials of the 7 year tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been shown the 7 year tribulation is a judgement for the people of the earth...and should understand Jesus already paid the price for that Judgement concerning Christians on the cross 2,000 years ago.....another dot to connect.

Another dot to connect would be the many mansions (dwelling places) in heaven that Jesus is currently building and the promise of His return to take us there. This fits in with the Jewish engagement and wedding of the times of Christ.

I have shown you another dot with the 2 Thes 2 mention of the gathering and removal of the restrainer and departure that happens prior to the 7 year tribulation. One more dot to connect.

You have been shown that the Church isn't mentioned by name after after chapter 4 of Revelations (19 times prior to chapter 5) and then not again to chapter 20. ....this is another dot.

There's more dots to connect that are buried deeper in scripture that I won't mention.

Dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot = a pre-trib rapture. All you need to do is connect them.

Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?

 

[ScottA]

John 16:33
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Everyone--everyone in the world, from the beginning unto the end, has tribulation--the "greatest" of which was all that was placed upon Jesus at the cross--our tribulations. There is no greater tribulation. All tribulation placed upon Jesus, is the greatest! As it is written, that is the "great tribulation."

As for the "Rapture" (so called), is there no rapturous rush to come upon all whom the Spirit comes upon, or when the times of this world stop and eternity comes with the shout of an archangel, when we pass through the gates? Are these things not written? Why then imagine that we have lived in this world with no tribulation and are then caught up--caught up from what...if there is no tribulation to be caught up from--if it only comes upon Jesus or the scoundrels of this world? Were you never a filthy, sinful scoundrel--weren't we all--except Jesus?​

​

What many have heard of the so-called "rapture", is merely the teachings of men, many of whom are without understanding.​

 

[CrowCross]

John 16:33
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Everyone--everyone in the world, from the beginning unto the end, has tribulation--the "greatest" of which was all that was placed upon Jesus at the cross--our tribulations. There is no greater tribulation. All tribulation placed upon Jesus, is the greatest! As it is written, that is the "great tribulation."

As for the "Rapture" (so called), is there no rapturous rush to come upon all whom the Spirit comes upon, or when the times of this world stop and eternity comes with the shout of an archangel, when we pass through the gates? Are these things not written? Why then imagine that we have lived in this world with no tribulation and are then caught up--caught up from what...if there is no tribulation to be caught up from--if it only comes upon Jesus or the scoundrels of this world? Were you never a filthy, sinful scoundrel--weren't we all--except Jesus?​

​

What many have heard of the so-called "rapture", is merely the teachings of men, many of whom are without understanding.​

False view. Still you didn't address my post.

 

[PinSeeker]

On this forum certain post-trip and one who accepts AMillennialism asked for where the bible speaks of a Pre-tribulation rapture.

Here is my response.

The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation. The bible also doesn't say outright there is a trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, if you connect the dots a Christian can understand the basic principles of the Godhead.

When the dots surround the rapture of the church are connected the pre-trib rapture becomes obvious.

For example I have shown you the bible presents Jesus as returning on a white horse in Rev 19 and another return where Jesus isn't riding a white horse. I've even presented you with depictions of the event. No white horse at the rapture while defections show a white horse at the Rev 19 return. That's one dot.

I've presented you with a social economic picture mentioned by Christ Jesus that speaks of His return and describes it like the days of Noah and not......which don't align with the social economic days of the end of the tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been presented several verses that show Christians....the bride of Christ... are not destined for wrath or the trials of the 7 year tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been shown the 7 year tribulation is a judgement for the people of the earth...and should understand Jesus already paid the price for that Judgement concerning Christians on the cross 2,000 years ago.....another dot to connect.

Another dot to connect would be the many mansions (dwelling places) in heaven that Jesus is currently building and the promise of His return to take us there. This fits in with the Jewish engagement and wedding of the times of Christ.

I have shown you another dot with the 2 Thes 2 mention of the gathering and removal of the restrainer and departure that happens prior to the 7 year tribulation. One more dot to connect.

You have been shown that the Church isn't mentioned by name after after chapter 4 of Revelations (19 times prior to chapter 5) and then not again to chapter 20. ....this is another dot.

There's more dots to connect that are buried deeper in scripture that I won't mention.

Dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot = a pre-trib rapture. All you need to do is connect them.

Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?

Well, your first two "dots" are the first problem... <smile> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're... understanding Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 to be two separate returns. This is a misreading/misunderstanding of those two chapters, and a misunderstanding of the book of Revelation as a whole. To explain succinctly, I'll start with the latter and then come back to the former:

Revelation as a whole:

Revelation is a series of seven visions which are not sequential but concurrent, but each one progressively more focused on the end, on Christ's return. The vision in Revelation 19, specifically verses 11 through 21, is the sixth vision, and the seventh vision goes from Revelation 20:1 to Revelation 21:8. These two visions are the only ones where we actually "see" Christ's return; in the previous five we are only brought to the threshold of Christ's return.​

Revelation 19 and 20:

The events described in these two chapters are not woodenly sequential... Revelation 20 is not in its entirety to be placed after the events of Revelation 19. Rather, specifically, the events of Revelation 19:11-21 are parallel to ~ the same events described in a different way as ~ Revelation 20:7-10. The imagery used in the two is different in some respects, yes, but they are not two separate events, but one and the same. In other words... <smile>...​

• The final battle in Revelation 20:7-10 is the same as the final battle in Revelation 16:14, 16, Revelation 17:14, and Revelation 19:11-21.
• Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
• The judgment of Satan in Revelation 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
• Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14, Revelation 11:18).
• Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in Revelation 20:3.

Thus, 20:1-6 is to be seen as the first part of a 7th cycle and thus leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles, rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others. So we "see" Christ's one return, the Second Coming, 1.) in Revelation 19:11-12... He is the rider called Faithful and True Who judges and makes war, Whose eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written that no one knows but Himself, and He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is The Word of God, and 2.) in Revelation 20:9, specifically; He is the fire coming down from heaven and consuming the devil. This one event is still yet future, obviously, but the events of Revelation 20:1-3 are past, and we are in the midst of the events described in Revelation 20:4-6... since Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit, people are coming to share in the first resurrection.​

All your other "dots" go the same way as these first two... <smile>

Grace and peace to you,

 

[marks]

When the dots surround the rapture of the church are connected the pre-trib rapture becomes obvious.

Here is another dot:

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged.

They (the gentiles) will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

There's more dots to connect that are buried deeper in scripture that I won't mention.

Amen! Plenty of Rightly Divided Scripture!:

According To Prophecy To Israel:


Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)

According To The "Preaching Of Jesus Christ, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery"
For Today's Body Of Christ!:



---------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't see any evidence that the rapture happens before the tribulation.

This shows the rapture happens after the trib has ended:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This matches the same gathering language used by Paul:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

[ScottA]

False view. Still you didn't address my post.

I gave you the dots.

 

[David in NJ]

On this forum certain post-trip and one who accepts AMillennialism asked for where the bible speaks of a Pre-tribulation rapture.

Here is my response.

The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation. The bible also doesn't say outright there is a trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, if you connect the dots a Christian can understand the basic principles of the Godhead.

When the dots surround the rapture of the church are connected the pre-trib rapture becomes obvious.

For example I have shown you the bible presents Jesus as returning on a white horse in Rev 19 and another return where Jesus isn't riding a white horse. I've even presented you with depictions of the event. No white horse at the rapture while defections show a white horse at the Rev 19 return. That's one dot.

I've presented you with a social economic picture mentioned by Christ Jesus that speaks of His return and describes it like the days of Noah and not......which don't align with the social economic days of the end of the tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been presented several verses that show Christians....the bride of Christ... are not destined for wrath or the trials of the 7 year tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been shown the 7 year tribulation is a judgement for the people of the earth...and should understand Jesus already paid the price for that Judgement concerning Christians on the cross 2,000 years ago.....another dot to connect.

Another dot to connect would be the many mansions (dwelling places) in heaven that Jesus is currently building and the promise of His return to take us there. This fits in with the Jewish engagement and wedding of the times of Christ.

I have shown you another dot with the 2 Thes 2 mention of the gathering and removal of the restrainer and departure that happens prior to the 7 year tribulation. One more dot to connect.

You have been shown that the Church isn't mentioned by name after after chapter 4 of Revelations (19 times prior to chapter 5) and then not again to chapter 20. ....this is another dot.

There's more dots to connect that are buried deeper in scripture that I won't mention.

Dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot = a pre-trib rapture. All you need to do is connect them.

Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?

WRONG AGAIN

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Trinity is EXPRESSED without the word "trinity" beginning in Genesis chapter 1

pre-trib rapture is specifically DENIED by GOD beginning in Genesis chapters 1-6

pre-trib rapture is DENIED by GOD throughout the Scriptures

The LORD Jesus Christ specifically DENIED pre-trib rapture.

PURE GOSPEL TRUTH = pre-trib rapture is a man-made doctrine and all who follow it place themselves under a FALSE prophecy

 

[PeterAndroz]

False view. Still you didn't address my post.

We'll explain it to them on the way up :)

 

[PeterAndroz]

I don't see any evidence that the rapture happens before the tribulation.

This shows the rapture happens after the trib has ended:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This matches the same gathering language used by Paul:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Paul -1 Cor 15:52 The dead then we are raised in a TWINKLE of an eye.
This 'gathering' happens in an INSTANT

Strong's Greek: 4493. ῥιπή (rhipé) -- Flash, twinkling, moment

....
Matt 24:31 gathering by the angels
Does that 'gathering' happen in an INSTANT ?
If so, please list where Matt teaches that to be so.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul -1 Cor 15:52 The dead then we are raised in a TWINKLE of an eye.
This 'gathering' happens in an INSTANT

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The verse speaks of the dead resurrecting in an instant. It doesn't mention the gathering.

View attachment 89770

Strong's Greek: 4493. ῥιπή (rhipé) -- Flash, twinkling, moment

....
Matt 24:31 gathering by the angels
Does that 'gathering' happen in an INSTANT ?
If so, please list where Matt teaches that to be so.

See above.

 

[PeterAndroz]

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The verse speaks of the dead resurrecting in an instant. It doesn't mention the gathering.




See above.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In an instant, in a twinkle :-
- the dead are raised
- we shall be changed
Who do you believe are the 'we' ?

 

[ewq1938]

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In an instant, in a twinkle :-
- the dead are raised
- we shall be changed
Who do you believe are the 'we' ?

The non-dead are changed from mortal to immortal right after the dead are raised in immortal bodies. The gathering is after these changes to immortality.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't see any evidence that the rapture happens before the tribulation.

This shows the rapture happens after the trib has ended:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This matches the same gathering language used by Paul:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

You posted a passage where Jesus sends angels to gather after the trib.
He does not go, as It SAYS in that passage.
He sends angels to gather.
That gathering is IN HEAVEN according to your passage.
You are actually agreeing with a pretrib rapture, as , in that pretrib rapture JESUS GATHERS....FROM EARTH...NOT HEAVEN.

 

[PeterAndroz]

The non-dead are changed from mortal to immortal right after the dead are raised in immortal bodies. The gathering is after these changes to immortality.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In an INSTANT
- the dead & the NON-dead (alive) are raised << GATHERED
- no mention of angels invloved
..
Where does Matt teach his 'gathering by the angels' is done in an INSTANT

 

[David in NJ]

We'll explain it to them on the way up :)

or the way down...............but then , no explanation necessary!

 

[David in NJ]

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In an INSTANT
- the dead & the NON-dead (alive) are raised << GATHERED
- no mention of angels invloved
..
Where does Matt teach his 'gathering by the angels' is done in an INSTANT

Great Scriptures

ZERO pre-trib in it.

OFFICIAL - I will personally give the first person $1,000.00 USD for just one passage of scripture that states:
a.) The LORD Jesus saying HE Comes BEFORE the Tribulation(Antichrist) for His Elect, Saints, Church
b.) The Apostles saying JESUS Comes BEFORE the Tribulation(Antichrist) for His Elect, Saints, Church

 

[David in NJ]

You posted a passage where Jesus sends angels to gather after the trib.
He does not go, as It SAYS in that passage.
He sends angels to gather.
That gathering is IN HEAVEN according to your passage.
You are actually agreeing with a pretrib rapture, as , in that pretrib rapture JESUS GATHERS....FROM EARTH...NOT HEAVEN.

Matt ch24
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man Coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thess 4:13-16
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Douggg]

I hold the Anytime view resurrection/rapture. First, here is chart of the Pre-trib view.



Compared to the Anytime view resurrection/rapture.