Two Witnesses - A Biblical Perspective

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TribulationSigns

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Zechariah 4:11-14 below in context tells the reader (These Are The Two Annointed Ones) simple, clear, easy to understand, as you disregard this basic biblical truth

Ah yes—“simple, clear, easy to understand.”

Apparently the rule is: if Zechariah says “two anointed ones,” we shut the Bible, stop comparing Scripture with Scripture, and announce, “Well, obviously that means two literal future men!”

Except Zechariah never says that.

You keep repeating “These are the two anointed ones” as though I disagree with the verse. I DON'T. I fully accept it.

What I reject is your assumption that:

“two anointed ones” = “two literal individual men who will appear in the future.”

Show me where Zechariah 4:14 says that.

It doesn't.

You call your interpretation “simple, clear, easy to understand,” but that is exactly the problem with a carnal, wooden reading of prophetic imagery! It sees two and says, “Two men!” It sees death and says, “Two physical corpses!” It sees fire coming from their mouths and somehow decides that part can be figurative while insisting everything else must be literal.

Meanwhile, Zechariah is showing us olive trees, branches, golden pipes, oil, and a candlestick, and Revelation calls the witnesses olive trees and candlesticks.

Apparently all those symbols are perfectly acceptable—until someone actually interprets them symbolically.

Then suddenly it's “malarkey.”

Interesting.

Revelation itself tells us:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”
— Revelation 1:20

So I am not having difficulty understanding Zechariah 4:14. I understand perfectly well that they are called the two anointed ones.

The question you continually avoid is:

WHAT DO THE TWO ANOINTED ONES REPRESENT?

Repeating their title does not answer that question.

God's people are anointed by the Holy Spirit and commissioned to bear witness to Christ. Christ sent His disciples two by two, consistent with the biblical principle that testimony is established by two witnesses. The Church collectively bears Christ's testimony before the world.

That is why I compare Zechariah 4 with Revelation 1, Revelation 11, Deuteronomy 19:15, Luke 10, Acts 1:8, and the rest of Scripture.

You apparently prefer:

“Two means two men. Simple! Case closed!”

LOL!

Well, if that is where you intend to remain, there really isn't much more for me to explain.

You have already decided that the prophetic symbols must fit the literalistic framework you learned from a Sunday School of premillennial teaching. Until you are willing to question that assumption and allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we will simply go around in circles.

Jesus repeatedly said:

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Understanding prophetic Scripture requires more than seeing the word two and counting to two.

So yes, bud, I read Zechariah 4:14.

Now please read everything around it.
 

TribulationSigns

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(Two Witnesses, A Biblical Perspective)

Two future prophets that will have literal physical bodies that die, and they will have power from God to bring literal plagues upon this literal earth as often as they will, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Jesus Is The Lord

(Future, Literal, Unfulfilled)

Revelation 11:3-18KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Chuckle!

Bud, you are doing exactly what I have been pointing out.

You put your interpretation in bold:

“Two future prophets.”
“Literal physical bodies.”
“Literal plagues.”
“Future, Literal, Unfulfilled.”


Then you quote Revelation 11 as though the passage itself said those words.

But it doesn't.

Where does Revelation 11:3–6 say:

“These are two future individual men with literal physical bodies”?

Please show me the verse.

You cannot, because that sentence comes from your flawed interpretive system, not from the text.

And now you say this is a “complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh.”

Interesting! Because Revelation 11 doesn't say Moses and Aaron either! Hello?

In fact, the imagery combines characteristics associated particularly with Elijah and Moses.

“These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not…”
— Revelation 11:6

That recalls Elijah.

“…and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues…”
— Revelation 11:6

That recalls Moses.

So John is drawing upon Old Testament prophetic imagery. But you immediately turn those allusions into proof that two literal future men must reenact those miracles "physically."

That conclusion does not follow.

Let me use your own “simple, clear, literal” method consistently.

Verse 5 says:

Fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.”

Okay then.

Do you believe two future men will literally open their mouths and shoot physical flames like human flamethrowers?

If you say yes, at least you are being consistent.

But if you say the fire represents the power or judgment of God's Word, congratulations—you have just acknowledged symbolic language in the very passage you insist must be literal.

And Scripture already gives us precedent:

“Behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.”
— Jeremiah 5:14

Did Jeremiah literally breathe fire?

Of course not.

God's Word in the prophet's mouth was described as fire because His Word brought judgment.

So why is symbolic prophetic language suddenly forbidden when we reach Revelation 11?

Then verse 4 says:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

Are these two men literally botanical olive trees?

No.

Are they literally metal lampstands?

No.

So before we even reach verse 6, your claim that this passage demands wooden literalism has already collapsed.

The chapter itself is speaking through prophetic symbols.

And Christ has already told us what candlesticks represent in Revelation:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”
— Revelation 1:20

That isn't my definition.

Christ gave it.

The witnesses also prophesy for 1,260 days, corresponding to the symbolic 42-month period used elsewhere in Revelation. They are clothed in sackcloth. They are olive trees. They are candlesticks. Fire comes from their mouths. A beast rises from the bottomless pit and makes war against them.

Yet your method seems to be:

“Literal! Literal! Literal!”

Except, apparently, when literal becomes inconvenient.

That isn't consistent interpretation.

Revelation is apocalyptic prophecy saturated with Old Testament imagery. The Moses-and-Elijah characteristics tell us about the nature and authority of the witnesses' testimony. They do not automatically prove that two individual men must appear in the future and physically duplicate Moses' and Elijah's miracles.

God's Church bears prophetic witness through the Word of God and by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Christ said:

Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me… unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
— Acts 1:8

There are Christ's witnesses.

Not merely two men standing somewhere in future Jerusalem, but Christ's Spirit-empowered witnesses carrying His testimony throughout the earth.

So respectfully, posting Revelation 11 again does not answer my argument.

I have Revelation 11 too.

The disagreement isn't over whether the passage exists. The disagreement is over how apocalyptic prophecy should be interpreted.

You keep putting “FUTURE, LITERAL, UNFULFILLED” above the passage as though those words were inspired Scripture.

They aren't.

That is your theological interpretation of the passage.

So instead of quoting the same verses again and writing LITERAL in bold letters, demonstrate from Scripture why:

olive trees must represent two men,
candlesticks must represent two men,
fire from their mouths must be physical,
1,260 days must be literal calendar days,
and the witnesses must be two future individuals.


Until then, you haven't disproved my interpretation.

You have merely repeated yours louder.

And repetition is not exegesis.

Selah.
 

TribulationSigns

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And one more thing...bud...

And since you insist that Revelation 11 must be read literally, I'll leave you with one final thought.

Revelation 11:5 says:

“Fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.”

So when you actually see two literal men breathing literal fire out of their literal mouths and literally devouring their enemies with it, let me know.

Then perhaps we can talk about your insistence that everything here must be literal.

Until then, simply repeating “literal, literal, literal” does not make your interpretation biblical. Revelation itself uses symbolic and prophetic imagery, and Scripture must interpret Scripture.

At this point, I am no longer interested in continuing this dialogue with you. I have explained my position repeatedly and provided the Scriptures supporting it. You continue responding by repeating the same assertion rather than actually addressing the biblical argument.

So we can leave it there.

Therefore...when the two literal fire-breathing men show up, feel free to get back to me. Until then, Good bye!
 

Truth7t7

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Ah yes—“simple, clear, easy to understand.”

Apparently the rule is: if Zechariah says “two anointed ones,” we shut the Bible, stop comparing Scripture with Scripture, and announce, “Well, obviously that means two literal future men!”

Except Zechariah never says that.

You keep repeating “These are the two anointed ones” as though I disagree with the verse. I DON'T. I fully accept it.

What I reject is your assumption that:

“two anointed ones” = “two literal individual men who will appear in the future.”

Show me where Zechariah 4:14 says that.

It doesn't.

You call your interpretation “simple, clear, easy to understand,” but that is exactly the problem with a carnal, wooden reading of prophetic imagery! It sees two and says, “Two men!” It sees death and says, “Two physical corpses!” It sees fire coming from their mouths and somehow decides that part can be figurative while insisting everything else must be literal.

Meanwhile, Zechariah is showing us olive trees, branches, golden pipes, oil, and a candlestick, and Revelation calls the witnesses olive trees and candlesticks.

Apparently all those symbols are perfectly acceptable—until someone actually interprets them symbolically.

Then suddenly it's “malarkey.”

Interesting.

Revelation itself tells us:



So I am not having difficulty understanding Zechariah 4:14. I understand perfectly well that they are called the two anointed ones.

The question you continually avoid is:

WHAT DO THE TWO ANOINTED ONES REPRESENT?

Repeating their title does not answer that question.

God's people are anointed by the Holy Spirit and commissioned to bear witness to Christ. Christ sent His disciples two by two, consistent with the biblical principle that testimony is established by two witnesses. The Church collectively bears Christ's testimony before the world.

That is why I compare Zechariah 4 with Revelation 1, Revelation 11, Deuteronomy 19:15, Luke 10, Acts 1:8, and the rest of Scripture.

You apparently prefer:

“Two means two men. Simple! Case closed!”

LOL!

Well, if that is where you intend to remain, there really isn't much more for me to explain.

You have already decided that the prophetic symbols must fit the literalistic framework you learned from a Sunday School of premillennial teaching. Until you are willing to question that assumption and allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we will simply go around in circles.

Jesus repeatedly said:



Understanding prophetic Scripture requires more than seeing the word two and counting to two.

So yes, bud, I read Zechariah 4:14.

Now please read everything around it.
Zechariah 4:14 & Revelation 11:3-4 represent the very same description in parallel teachings, (Two Anointed Ones-Two Witnesses)

Zechariah 4:14KJV
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
 

TribulationSigns

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Zechariah 4:14 & Revelation 11:3-4 represent the very same description in parallel teachings, (Two Anointed Ones-Two Witnesses)

Zechariah 4:14KJV
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Chuckle... Patting on your back and say to you, "see ya when you have two fire-breathing men." :p
 

Truth7t7

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Chuckle... Patting on your back and say to you, "see ya when you have two fire-breathing men." :p
In your previous posting you've tied Zechariah 4:11-14 & Revelation 11:3-4 together as being the same descriptions in parallel teachings, do you "Agree" or "Disagree"?

Zechariah 4:14 & Revelation 11:3-4 represent the very same description in parallel teachings, (Two Anointed Ones-Two Witnesses) Agree or Disagree?

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
 
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TribulationSigns

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In your previous posting you've tied Zechariah 4:11-14 & Revelation 11:3-4 together as being the same descriptions in parallel teachings, do you "Agree" or "Disagree"?

Zechariah 4:14 & Revelation 11:3-4 represent the very same description in parallel teachings, (Two Anointed Ones-Two Witnesses) Agree or Disagree?

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Read my posts again and again until you realized that you did not pay closely attention to what I said. Your position remains refuted.
 

Truth7t7

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Read my posts again and again until you realized that you did not pay closely attention to what I said. Your position remains refuted.
Once Again, Agree or Disagree?

Zechariah 4:11-14 & Revelation 11:3-4 represent the very same description in parallel teachings, (Two Anointed Ones-Two Witnesses) Agree or Disagree?

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
 
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