Two Witnesses - A Biblical Perspective

[Earburner]

This is not true! After His resurrection, before Pentecost, Christ breathed first on His disciples, imputing the Holy Spirit unto them.

John 20:22 (KJV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Yes, the immediate 12 disciples received the power of the Holy Spirit that would be used through them for the purpose of beginning the early church. People outside of the 12 did not receive the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit until AFTER Jesus Ascended, which was the day of Pentecost.

 

[CrowCross]

The Bible does NOT teach that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are two literal men who suddenly appear at the end of the world or even the first century. Revelation itself identifies them symbolically:

I would say the bible uses symbolism from time to time to explain people and events.

We know Jesus isn't a literal gate hanging on a gate post....

Your problem is when you assign meaning to the proposed symbolism in Revelation...the sky's the limit. You can make it say whatever you want the "symbolism" to say.

Tell me why Rev 8 can't be describing the April 13th 2029 event of Apophis?

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree!
Now, do you agree that it is true about John the Baptist and Jesus, that only they WERE the two witnesses as prophesied in Zech. 3:8-10 and 4:6-7, 10-14?

Please remember that the book of Revelation is about past, present and future events.
It's not all about the future only.

Concerning biblical prophecy, unfortunately two notable Theologins of the 1800s have steered church-ianity far off course, and MANY Christians have followed their blatant and cloaked LIES. Namely: Darby and Schofield

No I Disagree

Rev Chapter 11 shows the "Future" (Two Witnesses) in physical living bodies that die "Literally" upon this earth

Jesus Is immortal and eternal sitting at the right hand of the Father presently, Jesus will never be in a physical body upon this earth again, let alone die a physical death

"No" you're not going to take the future, physical, literal (Two Witnesses) and use symbolic allegory in changing scripture

Jesus Is Lord

 

[TribulationSigns]

You have the same problem as the Pharisees had with Jesus, they wanted proof of who He was. You want proof from me of why I believe that John the Baptist and Jesus are the fulfillment of Rev. 11.
As Jesus did provide scripture to the Pharisees of who he was, so also have provided the scriptures that support my belief. It's not my fault that you cannot hear the voice of the Holy Spirit for you in that regard. It is apparent to me that you have an alternative belief that is deep rooted, and therefore you are defending.

You seem obsessed with calling me a Pharisee every time I ask you to prove your interpretation from Scripture. Calling me a Pharisee is not an answer. It is becoming a convenient way for you to avoid the question for all to see!

And your comparison is backwards. The problem with the Pharisees was not that they asked questions or examined claims. Jesus Himself appealed to the Scriptures as testimony concerning Him (John 5:39, 46). Paul reasoned from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2), and the Bereans were praised for searching the Scriptures daily to test what Paul taught (Acts 17:11).

So testing your teaching against Scripture is not “Pharisaism.” It is biblical discernment. Hello?

You say you have provided Scriptures supporting your belief. No—you have provided Scriptures showing that John was important, Spirit-filled, came in the spirit and power of Elijah, and testified concerning Christ. I have never disputed any of that.

What you have not demonstrated is the conclusion you keep attaching to those verses:

Therefore Jesus Christ and John the Baptist are the two olive trees, two candlesticks, and Two Witnesses of Revelation 11.

That's the missing link.

And saying, “It's not my fault you cannot hear the voice of the Holy Spirit,” only makes your reasoning more circular: “My interpretation is from the Holy Spirit; if you disagree with my interpretation, you cannot hear the Holy Spirit.” That makes your interpretation conveniently impossible to challenge.

No. The Holy Spirit inspired the Word, and teachings are tested by that Word.

So please stop hiding behind the Pharisee accusation. I'm not asking you to prove who Jesus is. I'm asking you to prove your interpretation of Revelation 11.

After all these posts, you still haven't done that. Calling me spiritually deaf does not fill the enormous exegetical hole in your argument.

Grow up. After all these exchanges, you STILL HAVE NOT provided the biblical proof you were repeatedly asked to provide. Your position remains refuted, and repeatedly calling me a Pharisee does nothing to rescue it.

— Zipped. — No more conversation with you here. Go bother someone else with the endless detours while you continue digging yourself deeper into interpretive error. I have no interest in going around the same circle with you again.

 

[Earburner]

This is not true! After His resurrection, before Pentecost, Christ breathed first on His disciples, imputing the Holy Spirit unto them.

John 20:22 (KJV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I already agreed with you.
In my thoughts, I was speaking torwards the whole of mankind, that the Holy Spirit ("rain") is now available to all who repent towards God and believe in Jesus.

 

[Earburner]

You seem obsessed with calling me a Pharisee every time I ask you to prove your interpretation from Scripture. Calling me a Pharisee is not an answer. It is becoming a convenient way for you to avoid the question for all to see!

And your comparison is backwards. The problem with the Pharisees was not that they asked questions or examined claims. Jesus Himself appealed to the Scriptures as testimony concerning Him (John 5:39, 46). Paul reasoned from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2), and the Bereans were praised for searching the Scriptures daily to test what Paul taught (Acts 17:11).

So testing your teaching against Scripture is not “Pharisaism.” It is biblical discernment. Hello?

You say you have provided Scriptures supporting your belief. No—you have provided Scriptures showing that John was important, Spirit-filled, came in the spirit and power of Elijah, and testified concerning Christ. I have never disputed any of that.

What you have not demonstrated is the conclusion you keep attaching to those verses:

Therefore Jesus Christ and John the Baptist are the two olive trees, two candlesticks, and Two Witnesses of Revelation 11.

That's the missing link.

And saying, “It's not my fault you cannot hear the voice of the Holy Spirit,” only makes your reasoning more circular: “My interpretation is from the Holy Spirit; if you disagree with my interpretation, you cannot hear the Holy Spirit.” That makes your interpretation conveniently impossible to challenge.

No. The Holy Spirit inspired the Word, and teachings are tested by that Word.

So please stop hiding behind the Pharisee accusation. I'm not asking you to prove who Jesus is. I'm asking you to prove your interpretation of Revelation 11.

After all these posts, you still haven't done that. Calling me spiritually deaf does not fill the enormous exegetical hole in your argument.

Grow up. After all these exchanges, you STILL HAVE NOT provided the biblical proof you were repeatedly asked to provide. Your position remains refuted, and repeatedly calling me a Pharisee does nothing to rescue it.

— Zipped. — No more conversation with you here. Go bother someone else with the endless detours while you continue digging yourself deeper into interpretive error. I have no interest in going around the same circle with you again.

You still need more proof, after the many scriptures that I have already provided??
Okay then, here is more scripture in my sharing of His Truth of how John the Baptist was the ONLY witness of who Jesus was, and Jesus was the ONLY witness of who God the Father is.

I didn't know that it "bothered" you to know that God foretold of that time, about his two anointed ones: "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the Lord of the whole earth." Zech. 4:14.

So then, did you happen to see and understand Zech. 3:8-10?
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9 For behold the "stone" that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You still need more proof, after the many scriptures that I have already provided??
Okay then, here is more scripture in my sharing of His Truth of how John the Baptist was the ONLY witness of who Jesus was, and Jesus was the ONLY witness of who God the Father is.

I didn't know that it "bothered" you to know that God foretold of that time, about his two anointed ones: "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the Lord of the whole earth." Zech. 4:14.

So then, did you happen to see and understand Zech. 3:8-10?
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9 For behold the "stone" that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Oh brother!

None of that proves Jesus and John are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11—you've simply piled more unrelated assertions onto the same unproven conclusion. You still haven't established the identification from Scripture, so I'm zipping this discussion for good.

Now go take this circus somewhere else. I'm zipping this discussion for good.

 

[gpresdo]

Enoch and Elijah.
It is appointed unto to man...once to die. They have not died.

 

[Earburner]

When

You seem obsessed with calling me a Pharisee every time I ask you to prove your interpretation from Scripture. Calling me a Pharisee is not an answer. It is becoming a convenient way for you to avoid the question for all to see!

And your comparison is backwards. The problem with the Pharisees was not that they asked questions or examined claims. Jesus Himself appealed to the Scriptures as testimony concerning Him (John 5:39, 46). Paul reasoned from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2), and the Bereans were praised for searching the Scriptures daily to test what Paul taught (Acts 17:11).

So testing your teaching against Scripture is not “Pharisaism.” It is biblical discernment. Hello?

You say you have provided Scriptures supporting your belief. No—you have provided Scriptures showing that John was important, Spirit-filled, came in the spirit and power of Elijah, and testified concerning Christ. I have never disputed any of that.

What you have not demonstrated is the conclusion you keep attaching to those verses:

Therefore Jesus Christ and John the Baptist are the two olive trees, two candlesticks, and Two Witnesses of Revelation 11.

That's the missing link.

And saying, “It's not my fault you cannot hear the voice of the Holy Spirit,” only makes your reasoning more circular: “My interpretation is from the Holy Spirit; if you disagree with my interpretation, you cannot hear the Holy Spirit.” That makes your interpretation conveniently impossible to challenge.

No. The Holy Spirit inspired the Word, and teachings are tested by that Word.

So please stop hiding behind the Pharisee accusation. I'm not asking you to prove who Jesus is. I'm asking you to prove your interpretation of Revelation 11.

After all these posts, you still haven't done that. Calling me spiritually deaf does not fill the enormous exegetical hole in your argument.

Grow up. After all these exchanges, you STILL HAVE NOT provided the biblical proof you were repeatedly asked to provide. Your position remains refuted, and repeatedly calling me a Pharisee does nothing to rescue it.

— Zipped. — No more conversation with you here. Go bother someone else with the endless detours while you continue digging yourself deeper into interpretive error. I have no interest in going around the same circle with you again.

When you show respect for what I understand is that which the Holy Spirit is teaching me, then I will have respect for what you believe the Holy Spirit is teaching you! Along the way, if we are humble and mature enough to recant from that which is spiritual error, we should be able to maintain peace in the Lord.

 

[JimKnox]

Why Does Scripture Mention Their “Feet”?​

This detail is important!

Throughout Scripture, feet are associated with being sent forth with the Gospel:



And:



Therefore, when the Spirit causes the Two Witnesses to stand upon their feet, the picture is one of God's people becoming mobilized again. They rise from the silence imposed upon their testimony. They will not prophesy about salvation anymore but JUDGMENT against the abominations around them, warn that judgment is coming, and ultimately separate themselves from the apostate city.

“And Great Fear Fell Upon Them Which Saw Them”​

Their enemies thought they had won.

They thought the troublesome testimony had finally been silenced.

But suddenly the faithful stand again.

Those believers who had been pushed aside, ignored and accused of being unloving, judgmental, heartless, legalistic, hateful, homophobic, sexist, and treated as spiritually “dead” are now openly speaking. This time with warning and separating themselves from the apostate congregation as their enemies behold them.

That does not mean the world watches two corpses physically climb onto their feet. Rather, those who opposed the faithful see their renewed spiritual activity, warning of judgment and departure from apostate church.
And they fear.

Why?

Because their apparent victory over God's witnesses was temporary. The people they thought had been silenced are standing again by the power of God. Their departure also exposes the spiritual condition of the city they are leaving behind.

The witnesses stand, warn, and come out; those remaining behind recognize that something serious is happening. Their fear may manifest itself through anger, hatred, accusations and reviling against the saints.

So Revelation 11 is not primarily predicting two supernatural men performing miracles in Jerusalem.

It is revealing the history and final trial of Christ's witnessing Church:

The Two Witnesses = God's faithful Elect Church.

The 1,260 days = the symbolic New Covenant period of Gospel testimony.

Their power = the Holy Spirit working through God's Word.

Their testimony = the Gospel going into the world to gather God's Elect.

Their death = the silencing of faithful Gospel testimony as the beast overcomes their witness in the apostate external Church.

The world's rejoicing = relief that the Word which exposed their sin and warned of judgment has been silenced.

The 3½ days = a short symbolic period of silence and apparent defeat.

The Spirit of life entering them = God reviving their active testimony.

Standing upon their feet = God's witnesses becoming spiritually mobilized again to speak, warn, and come out of the apostate city.

Their enemies beholding them = those who opposed the truth witnessing this revival and separation with fear.

The Two Witnesses therefore cannot finally be defeated. Satan may be permitted to kill their testimony for a 3-1/2 days/half an hour, but he cannot destroy the eternal life God has placed within His Elect.

The Gospel accomplishes exactly what God sent it to accomplish. The witnesses finish their testimony. The Elect are gathered. The beast is permitted to rule in God's Church for a little season. The faithful stand again by the Spirit of God.

And then the end comes.

Therefore, the traditional Church teaching that the Two Witnesses are two literal men who will someday be physically killed by a literal beast or whatever is a false interpretation of Revelation 11. The passage is symbolic: the Two Witnesses represent the faithful Church, and their “death” represents the silencing of their truthful testimony within the apostate external congregation.

Selah!

Whole bunch of AL baloney for Nada.

 

[Earburner]

Enoch and Elijah.
It is appointed unto to man...once to die. They have not died.

Do you not believe Jesus about every person who is born of flesh?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah were transported by the Spirit of God to new locations, dwelling places ON EARTH.
"It is appointed unto man....once to die" is an unchangeable Judgment from God. Enoch and Elijah DID NOT miss "their appointment".

 

[Earburner]

Oh brother!

None of that proves Jesus and John are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11—you've simply piled more unrelated assertions onto the same unproven conclusion. You still haven't established the identification from Scripture, so I'm zipping this discussion for good.

Now go take this circus somewhere else. I'm zipping this discussion for good.

So what's next? Are you going to set me up for an appointment with the Sanhedron and the high priest?
You have done nothing here except to get yourself frustrated because I don't play by the rules of church-ianity. But I do play by the rules of 1 Cor. ch. 2.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Whole bunch of AL baloney for Nada.

Calling it “baloney” is not a refutation. I laid out my position from Scripture and explained why I understand Revelation 11 symbolically. If you believe it is wrong, then address the Scriptures and the arguments I presented and demonstrate where the interpretation fails. Denial and Mockery is easy; biblical refutation requires substance.

Do better.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So what's next? Are you going to set me up for an appointment with the Sanhedron and the high priest?
You have done nothing here except to get yourself frustrated because I don't play by the rules of church-ianity. But I do play by the rules of 1 Cor. ch. 2.

Nah, there is a far more serious appointment than anything involving the Sanhedrin: God Himself will judge every false doctrine and every teacher who claims something comes from His Word when it does not.

And no, I'm not frustrated at all. You were given a very simple challenge: show from Scripture where Jesus Christ and John the Baptist are identified as the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. After all these lengthy replies, you STILL have not done it. I cannot help you with your spiritual blindness when you continually refuse to answer the question. That is a fact!

And please spare me the claim that you “play by the rules of 1 Corinthians 2.” There is no special set of “rules” in 1 Corinthians 2 that gives anyone permission to invent an interpretation and then call it spiritual wisdom. LOL! In fact, have you already forgot that Paul says, “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual” (1 Corinthians 2:13).

Exactly. Compare Scripture with Scripture.

So simply quote the Scripture that actually identifies the Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist. You can't, because it isn't there. Hello!

That identification is not coming out of God's Word. It is being read into God's Word through your own imagination and false interpretation.

You can keep calling that “spiritual,” but attaching a spiritual label to an unsupported doctrine does not make it biblical.

As I already said, I'm done with your circus.