It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

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Taken

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So you do believe in the catching away of the Saints? LOL. Why are you so sheepish about this? Are you ashamed of it?

Where is your Scripture to show a tribulation period following this anywhere in God's Book?
You said…
“Ok. So, do you not believe in the catching away of the saints when Jesus comes?”

Not at all am I ashamed of what I believe…
I clarify precisely… not by your words, that I have seen no evidence you understanding the meaning of words.

Jesus receives His Bride unto Him… Before He RETURNS to Earth.
 

Taken

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LOL. So, you're trying to get me to prove something that is not in the Bible and is fictional?
I asked you about your Salvation.
You had no answer.

I asked you for a Scripture that Reveals What the saved would be Doing on Earth during the Trib.
You had no answer.

I had zero expectation of an answer, and certainly did not think you able to Prove anything.
How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

Scriptural Time varies, beginning with darkness and then according to sun up, sun down…
 

Taken

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Daniel 9:20-27 speaks of the seven year tribulation.
Perhaps you tend to read it differently and do the math differently than most people.

Daniel speaks in Weeks.
Rev speaks in Months.
Rev also speaks in Days.
Gen speaks of 7 days.

Quite simply, imv…
The Big Picture IS the number “7” … be it days, weeks, months, years, centuries….
A Beginning…1
A Catastrophic series of Events…3.5
Wrapping up the End /the Old fulfilled…7
A New Beginning…8


Glory to God,
Taken
 

WPM

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Pretrib can't stand without preconceived assumptions.
Posttrib can't stand without preconceived assumptions.

After receiving my Divinity degree from an IFB Bible College, I set about to strengthen my pretrib training and convictions.

I landed squarely on MIDTRIB PREMIL eschatology. It's the only thing that stands.

You landed on a doctrine that carries no proof-text and zero corroboration. You went with what you were taught - 2 futures comings of Christ. This is a Jesuit lie. The burden of proof is with you to show this great "doctrine" of yours is in God's Book. I wait with bated breath.
 

WPM

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Scriptural Time varies, beginning with darkness and then according to sun up, sun down…

LOL. More avoidance Mr Avoidance. You cannot address anything. This is classic Pretrib.

Readers: check any page and you will see multiple evidence of this.

Are you a literalist?

How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
 

Taken

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LOL. More avoidance Mr Avoidance. You cannot address anything. This is classic Pretrib.
You are NOT equipped to have a conversation regarding Spiritual things.
Readers: check any page and you will see multiple evidence of this.

Are you a literalist?

How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
Already answered, however since you lack understanding regarding spiritual things…

A suitable Carnal answer for you…is probably you should check your Timex when the Beast begins his reign.
 

WPM

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You are NOT equipped to have a conversation regarding Spiritual things.

Already answered, however since you lack understanding regarding spiritual things…

A suitable Carnal answer for you…is probably you should check your Timex when the Beast begins his reign.
What do you mean "Scriptural Time varies, beginning with darkness and then according to sun up, sun down"? Explain.
 

WPM

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A suitable Carnal answer for you…is probably you should check your Timex when the Beast begins his reign.

Ok. So, you have now moved to the second Pretrib stage of ad hominen. The next stage is run.
  • Pretrib stage 1: avoidance.
  • Pretrib stage 2: ad hominem.
  • Pretrib stage 3: run.
 

WPM

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I asked you for a Scripture that Reveals What the saved would be Doing on Earth during the Trib.
You had no answer.

I had zero expectation of an answer, and certainly did not think you able to Prove anything.
Once again, no addressing of the issues.

The Church is found throughout the tribulation period.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.
 

WPM

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Pretrib can't stand without preconceived assumptions.
Posttrib can't stand without preconceived assumptions.

After receiving my Divinity degree from an IFB Bible College, I set about to strengthen my pretrib training and convictions.

I landed squarely on MIDTRIB PREMIL eschatology. It's the only thing that stands.
Let us start with Daniel 9.
  1. Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church?
  2. Where does it mentioned a rapture?
  3. Where does it mention a 7 years tribulation period?
  4. Where does it mention a 3rd coming?
 

JimKnox

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You landed on a doctrine that carries no proof-text and zero corroboration. You went with what you were taught - 2 futures comings of Christ. This is a Jesuit lie. The burden of proof is with you to show this great "doctrine" of yours is in God's Book. I wait with bated breath.
Your reply resembles that of someone who probably flunked Reading Comprehension class in 3rd grade my friend.
It is obvious to even a casual reader that I did not land on Midtrib by accident nor by magic. Obviously if it was the result of Biblical study it is not a Jesuit lie .
Also obvious is that I blocked you ages ago and will continue such a wise course of action after posting this.
My recent comment was NOT a Dear WPM letter.
 

WPM

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Your reply resembles that of someone who probably flunked Reading Comprehension class in 3rd grade my friend.
It is obvious to even a casual reader that I did not land on Midtrib by accident nor by magic. Obviously if it was the result of Biblical study it is not a Jesuit lie .
Also obvious is that I blocked you ages ago and will continue such a wise course of action after posting this.
My recent comment was NOT a Dear WPM letter.
LOL. You have nothing. If you had it you would give it. You are reinforcing my thesis. All you have is wild claims, avoidance and ad hominem.

Everyone I see boasting of their so-called academic credentials have a pride issue and an insecurity complex. They cannot simply engage in normal discussion. They have to puff themselves up and run.

Check #2,869
 

Taken

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What do you mean "Scriptural Time varies, beginning with darkness and then according to sun up, sun down"? Explain.
In brief.
Lunar calendar…
New moon cycles vary.
Length of night and daylight varies.
Thus Length of days vary.

Gen 1:
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Time, “lengths” are assigned “numbers” to represent an amount….and “named” for reference.

If you have an interest in how Time is calculated and by whom, you should research and learn.
 

Taken

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Ok. So, you have now moved to the second Pretrib stage of ad hominen. The next stage is run.
  • Pretrib stage 1: avoidance.
  • Pretrib stage 2: ad hominem.
  • Pretrib stage 3: run.
Your Attempt to Sum up what you don’t believe is a Fail.

Escape / From…………..………Wrath
Redemption / Claimed By….Savior
Deliverance / To………………..Where Savior IS
 

Taken

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Once again, no addressing of the issues.

The Church is found throughout the tribulation period.
No.

The Church…is Christ Jesus.

Matt 16:
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Rev 1-5 are Preaching of Knowledge / Warnings TO Christs Church.

Rev 16:22 is Stated …Jesus Warned (through Jesus’ Servants) the Churches, BEFORE the Trib.

The Door to Enter IN to Christs Salvation is Closed, Before the Trib Begins.

The Lord Jesus Has Claimed / Redeemed / Taken His Church / Bride to Where He IS.

Rev 6 - the Trib from Heaven Begins.

Throughout the Tribs from Heaven…
* Men who BECOME SAVED…during the Trib…
* They Must Believe Before their body Dies.
* They ARE Soul Saved (BY God) AFTER their Mortal Body Dies.
* Their dead Body Remains ON Earth.
* Their Soul IS Raised TO Heaven.
* In Heaven Their Soul waits in comfort for their Body to be Raised On Earth, Their Soul Returned to their body And Judgement.


Are you unaware …
Both God AND Jesus Saves?

God Saved from the Beginning.

Jesus Saved During a Brief Time then Stopped (door open / door closed).

God Saves at / to the Ending…of all mortal Life…

They who RECEIVE Jesus’ Salvation ARE Christs CHURCH, ARE Christs Bride.

The Father IS the Father of His People….
Hebrews / Tribes / Jews

Christ Jesus’ Father Becomes the Legal Father of Jesus’ Bride. ( Gentiles / Jews (having left their Father), kings).

In the End Of Mortal life…God shall Save WHOM He Pleases.

He WHOM Pleases God, IS He WHOM mortally Dies, Heartfully believing IN Him and His Lord.
 

Taken

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Pretrib can't stand without preconceived assumptions.
Posttrib can't stand without preconceived assumptions.

After receiving my Divinity degree from an IFB Bible College, I set about to strengthen my pretrib training and convictions.

I landed squarely on MIDTRIB PREMIL eschatology. It's the only thing that stands.
You Landed on what others Taught you.

There IS Saving of souls… daily.
You can assume that or Trust to Believe Gods Word. Period.

God has saved souls from the Beginning and Shall Continue TO the Ending of mortal life.

Christ Jesus Had a Door opened unto Him… Giving Him Authority to Save Souls.

Either… God or Jesus…Become THE “Resurrector” of the Souls They Save.

Jesus Salvation Given… falls within a specific time period…
Door Opened… Entry An Option.
Door Closed….. Entry Option Ceases.

God Resurrects… Raises all / any Remaining, After Mortal living men Cease to Exist.

Christ the Lord Resurrects…Raises all / any He Saved …
After
the Door IS Closed…
Before …
Tribulations From Heaven Begin.

Christ the Lord CLAIMING they He Saved…
Is called the Rapture.

God Claiming they He Saved…
Is called the First Resurrection.

Same Concept… Body Raising…
Different Timing…
One claimed by God…
One Claimed by Lord…

Beginning 8th Day… New World, Heaven ON Earth…ALL Saved Gathered together, One Lord God Almighty their God….
And They…His People.
 

WPM

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In brief.
Lunar calendar…
New moon cycles vary.
Length of night and daylight varies.
Thus Length of days vary.

Gen 1:
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Time, “lengths” are assigned “numbers” to represent an amount….and “named” for reference.

If you have an interest in how Time is calculated and by whom, you should research and learn.
What has that to do with not answering my question: if the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is literally sixty minutes? It is not a difficult question!
 
Last edited:

WPM

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No.

The Church…is Christ Jesus.

Matt 16:
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Rev 1-5 are Preaching of Knowledge / Warnings TO Christs Church.

Rev 16:22 is Stated …Jesus Warned (through Jesus’ Servants) the Churches, BEFORE the Trib.

The Door to Enter IN to Christs Salvation is Closed, Before the Trib Begins.

The Lord Jesus Has Claimed / Redeemed / Taken His Church / Bride to Where He IS.

Rev 6 - the Trib from Heaven Begins.

Throughout the Tribs from Heaven…
* Men who BECOME SAVED…during the Trib…
* They Must Believe Before their body Dies.
* They ARE Soul Saved (BY God) AFTER their Mortal Body Dies.
* Their dead Body Remains ON Earth.
* Their Soul IS Raised TO Heaven.
* In Heaven Their Soul waits in comfort for their Body to be Raised On Earth, Their Soul Returned to their body And Judgement.


Are you unaware …
Both God AND Jesus Saves?

God Saved from the Beginning.

Jesus Saved During a Brief Time then Stopped (door open / door closed).

God Saves at / to the Ending…of all mortal Life…

They who RECEIVE Jesus’ Salvation ARE Christs CHURCH, ARE Christs Bride.

The Father IS the Father of His People….
Hebrews / Tribes / Jews

Christ Jesus’ Father Becomes the Legal Father of Jesus’ Bride. ( Gentiles / Jews (having left their Father), kings).

In the End Of Mortal life…God shall Save WHOM He Pleases.

He WHOM Pleases God, IS He WHOM mortally Dies, Heartfully believing IN Him and His Lord.
  1. Are these believers who are saved in the tribulation "in Christ"?
  2. Are they redeemed by the blood of Christ?
  3. Are they one family/fold with the Jewish believers in Israel who get saved?