Pretrib fallacies

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Spiritual Israelite

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What is mentioned in the Bible is what reveals what we now call the Trinity.
What is mentioned in the Bible is what reveals what we call the Rapture.
Right. And what is mentioned in the book of Revelation in the Bible chapters 4 through 19 reveals what we call the church.

Words became needed to be developed to indicate concepts that the Bible prescribes in what it contains.
Exactly. So, tell me who else but those in the church are called saints and have the testimony of Jesus and obey and follow Him?

That is why Paul said...

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight. Philippians 1:9​

Insight, with its understanding into how things work, has led to the need for the invention of new words!

The problem is...

If the Bible spelled out everything in black and white as you demand it to be, t
LOL! You are completely missing the point. 100%. Why? Are you even trying to see it? I'm not saying everything has to be spelled out at all. I'm showing you that is not the case. You are the one acting as if that has to be the case by pointing out that the word "church" is not mentioned in Revelation 4 to 19, as if that proves anything. The church is referenced in Revelation 4 to 19 very clearly, but just not with the word "church". You act as if you understand that concept, but then try to tell me that I'm the one who needs things spelled out? LOL!
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Not when it is rhetorical.

You need to get off your high horse.
There was no point at all to the question. Don't try to tell me what to do. I'm not on a high horse just because I'm pointing out that someone is playing games. He clearly is. He doesn't want to have an adult discussion, so he just keeps asking pointless questions.
 
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GeneZ

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There was no point at all to the question. Don't try to tell me what to do. I'm not on a high horse just because I'm pointing out that someone is playing games. He clearly is. He doesn't want to have an adult discussion, so he just keeps asking pointless questions.
Well... now you told him.
Now he knows.
 

GeneZ

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Exactly. So, tell me who else but those in the church are called saints and have the testimony of Jesus and obey and follow Him?

To be called a saint means to be set apart for a holy purpose.

To be a Christian means something different, though we too have been called to be set apart.
So Christians can also be called saints.
 

WPM

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The rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:24-16, where Jesus descends to a cloud and takes up believers.

The purpose is to remove believers from the coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21). See also

New heavens and earth are after the millenium (Revelation chapters 21, 22).

You do realize that you did not address any of the texts that I presented that show a climatic return of Jesus Christ?

It is clear (by their constant avoidance) that Pretribbers cannot show their teaching anywhere in Scripture. But that is not it, they cannot address and rebut the Posttrib position in any way. That is why they dodge the Posttrib arguments. I will repost some important Scriptures that forbid Pretrib.

The fact is: every believer is caught up at Christ's return - all. All the wicked are destroyed. Hello! Any alternative to that is unscriptural.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. God's people are rescued. The wicked are destroyed. There are no survivors here. We are now into eternity.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib or some imaginary future millennium.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching? There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer.

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.
 

William Barton

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The rapture is indicated in the following places:​
o. John 14:2-3​
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53​
o. 1Thessalinuans 4:15-17​
o. Revelation 11:12​
o. Revelation 14:16​
o The purpose is to spare believers from the great tribulation.​
o The great tribulation begins at the seventh trump (Revelation 11:15).​
o The seventh trump is at the midpoint of the tribulation (Daniel 7:25).​
 
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William Barton

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You do realize that you did not address any of the texts that I presented that show a climatic return of Jesus Christ?

It is clear (by their constant avoidance) that Pretribbers cannot show their teaching anywhere in Scripture. But that is not it, they cannot address and rebut the Posttrib position in any way. That is why they dodge the Posttrib arguments. I will repost some important Scriptures that forbid Pretrib.

The fact is: every believer is caught up at Christ's return - all. All the wicked are destroyed. Hello! Any alternative to that is unscriptural.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. God's people are rescued. The wicked are destroyed. There are no survivors here. We are now into eternity.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib or some imaginary future millennium.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching? There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer.

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.
I liked the expression "stark contrast," very dramatic.
"Parousia" is an English rendering of Greek παρουσια = "presence/arrival."
 
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William Barton

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o. "Heaven and earth shall pass away" is noted in Revelation chapters 21,22.

o. Sin corrupts the sinner and everything associated with him, hence this current creation has to go, after the millennium (Revelation, chapters 21,22).

o. Jesus himself returns first to the sky to "rapture" believers from the Middle East (Revelation 14:14-16).

o. It is not noisy, it occurs in an instant (1 Thessalonians 15:52).

o. It's in the Book.
 
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WPM

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"Heaven and earth shall pass away" is noted in Revelation chapters 21,22.

Sin corrupts the sinner and everything associated with him, hence this current creation has to go

Exactly.

But if you let the rest of Scripture locate Revelation 20, 21 and 22, you will see that it locates it at the one final future coming of Christ. That is the moment the heavens and earth pass away. Can you address that? This proves Amil and Postmil. Also, 2 Peter 3:10-13 proves this occurs when He comes again.
 
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WPM

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The rapture is indicated in the following places:​
o. John 14:2-3​
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53​
o. 1Thessalinuans 4:15-17​
o. Revelation 11:12​
o. Revelation 14:16​
The purpose is to spare believers from the great tribulation.​
The great tribulation begins at the seventh trump (Revelation 11:15).​
The seventh trump is at the midpoint of the tribulation (Daniel 7:25).​
Where does it teach anywhere that the purpose of the rapture "is to spare believers from the great tribulation"?
 

GeneZ

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The rapture is indicated in the following places:​
o. John 14:2-3​
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53​
o. 1Thessalinuans 4:15-17​
o. Revelation 11:12​
o. Revelation 14:16​
The purpose is to spare believers from the great tribulation.​
The great tribulation begins at the seventh trump (Revelation 11:15).​
The seventh trump is at the midpoint of the tribulation (Daniel 7:25).​

Hello...

There is a wee bit of confusion here about what the Rapture is.

Revelation 11:12 and 14:16 are not about the Rapture.
Yes... Like the Rapture, they do involve believers being removed from the earth to be taken above.
But the Rapture is something specific involving only the entire Church at the time of its taking place.

Way long before the Rapture, God even had the same thing occur with Enoch.

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death:
“He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was
taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. Hebrews 11:5​

We can't call everything that involved God removing some believer from the earth as the Rapture.
The Rapture speaks of a specific special event taking place only designated for the Bride of Christ - the Church.

Hope that helped to clarify.


grace and peace ..........
 

WPM

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Hello...

There is a wee bit of confusion here about what the Rapture is.

Revelation 11:12 and 14:16 are not about the Rapture.
Yes... Like the Rapture, they do involve believers being removed from the earth to be taken above.
But the Rapture is something specific involving only the entire Church at the time of its taking place.

Way long before the Rapture, God even had the same thing occur with Enoch.

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death:
“He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was
taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. Hebrews 11:5​

We can't call everything that involved God removing some believer from the earth as the Rapture.
The Rapture speaks of a specific special event taking place only designated for the Bride of Christ - the Church.

Hope that helped to clarify.


grace and peace ..........
  • So, where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
  • Where is your 3rd coming corroboration for your opinion of Revelation 19?
 
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JimKnox

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Sir?
Called what?
It is called "discernment".

It is not an argument from silence.
It is an argument that was constructed because of an unexpected and sudden silence.

Go ahead if you wish...

Defend what you have been told and accepted without question.
Protect yourself from the shame of finding out that what you were proud about believing is wrong.

Such moments must happen to all of us if we are truly growing.
That is why God says it takes humility to mature in Christ.
For we all have made errors at some point in our walk.

Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me. Matthew 16:24​
Taking up one's cross was the worst form of public humiliation.
It was designed to degrade the individual in front of onlookers, emphasizing the loss of honor.

As for me?

When my stupid mistakes were exposed?
I had a few...
If I remained proud and refused what is needed for my correction?
I would not have received transformation into becoming more Christ-like in my life.
For He is the Word.
Yeah, that's what I said.
It's an argument from silence.
 

GeneZ

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Right. And what is mentioned in the book of Revelation in the Bible chapters 4 through 19 reveals what we call the church.


Exactly. So, tell me who else but those in the church are called saints and have the testimony of Jesus and obey and follow Him?


LOL! You are completely missing the point. 100%. Why? Are you even trying to see it? I'm not saying everything has to be spelled out at all. I'm showing you that is not the case. You are the one acting as if that has to be the case by pointing out that the word "church" is not mentioned in Revelation 4 to 19, as if that proves anything. The church is referenced in Revelation 4 to 19 very clearly, but just not with the word "church". You act as if you understand that concept, but then try to tell me that I'm the one who needs things spelled out? LOL!

Are all believers the church? No.
But the church and all others who believe in the Lord are believers.

Are all believers throughout history the Bride of Christ? No.
Who then could the Lord and His Bride reign over if that were the case?

We need to rightly handle the Word of God.
 

William Barton

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But if you let the rest of Scripture locate Revelation 20, 21 and 22, you will see that it locates it at the one final future coming of Christ. That is the moment the heavens and earth pass away. Can you address that? This proves Amil and Postmil. Also, 2 Peter 3:10-13 proves this occurs when He comes again.

Rev 20:1-3 Millennium, Satan and angels in pit for 1000 years.
Rev 20:4. resurrection of past/present believers, spiritual bodies
Rev 20:7-9 Satan and angels released, attack Jerusalem
Rev 20:10 Satan and angels back in pit
Rev 20:11-15 Judgement Day
Rev 21, 22. New heavens and earth

2Peter 3:10 says the Lord will return and the universe will be done away, and that order is reflected in Revelation. Peter does not mention the 1000 years between the two, Revelation does mention the 1000 years.
 
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WPM

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Rev 20:1-3 Millennium, Satan and angels in pit for 1000 years.
Rev 20:4. resurrection of past/present believers, spiritual bodies
Rev 20:7-9 Satan and angels released, attack Jerusalem
Rev 20:10 Satan and angels back in pit
Rev 20:11-15 Judgement Day
Rev 21, 22. New heavens and earth
This proves we have been in the millennium since the binding of Satan 2000 years ago. This is a symbolic number representing a long period of time. Revelation is full of symbols.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. When Satan fell from heaven, so, did all his demons. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm has been restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

When Satan was banished from heaven, so was the whole demonic realm (1/3 of the angels went with him).

Through his defeat, Satan fell from heaven (John 12:31 & Revelation 12:7-9) and is now present in the abyss (Revelation 9:1-11 & Revelation 20:3). The abyss is not a physical geographical place. After all, physical metal chains cannot hold spirits. It is a spiritual state of restraint for spirits now. Near the end, the beast will be released from his restraints and the “deadly wound” to his head will be “healed” (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14). This tells us that he too was bruised like Satan’s head through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so too was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again. There will be a suppression of the Gospel in the last of the last days. This will result in deep persecution. But the darkest days in history have always been the brightest days in history.

When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so are the beast, and Satan's minions. Satan is promised a freedom from restraint before the second coming, as is antichrist, and every demon. Scripture shows the abyss being opened near the end whereupon Satan and his demons are released from their spiritual restraint (Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:7). This parallels with the beast also rising from the abyss (Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8). This corresponds with the restraint being taken off the mystery of iniquity in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 before Christ’s return.

Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10). Daniel 7:9-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and Revelation 19:19-20 show this to be the same time when the beast is obliterated.
 

WPM

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Are all believers the church? No.
But the church and all others who believe in the Lord are believers.

Are all believers throughout history the Bride of Christ? No.
Who then could the Lord and His Bride reign over if that were the case?

We need to rightly handle the Word of God.
Yes they are!!! All mankind from the beginning is either found to be in one of two camps – saved or lost. There is no other company. There has never been any other salvation apart from that found “in Christ.” The elect “in Christ" in the Old Testament looked forward to Messiah by faith, the elect “in Christ" in the New Testament look back to Messiah by faith. Those that reject Him are found "in Adam."

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there are only two types of people on planet earth – saved and lost. There are not three types of people in this world – saved, lost and then Israel, as Dispensationalists argue. For that to be true. There will have to be three federal heads. But Scripture makes it clear that there are only two – those “in Adam” and those “in Christ.” Nowhere does it say that there are three, namely, all those “in Adam,” all those “in Moses” and then all those “in Christ” as dispensationalists would have us believe.
 

WPM

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The rapture is indicated in the following places:​
o. John 14:2-3​
o. 1Corinthians 15:51-53​
o. 1Thessalinuans 4:15-17​
o. Revelation 11:12​
o. Revelation 14:16​
The purpose is to spare believers from the great tribulation.​
The great tribulation begins at the seventh trump (Revelation 11:15).​
The seventh trump is at the midpoint of the tribulation (Daniel 7:25).​
Where does it teach anywhere that the purpose of the rapture "is to spare believers from the great tribulation"?
 
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Marty fox

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Where does it teach anywhere that the purpose of the rapture "is to spare believers from the great tribulation"?
I guess were more special than past martyred saints!

This has always been an issue for me, it's such an arrogant view, the saints in the first century saw it as an honor and a privilege to suffer for Christ.
 
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William Barton

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I suppose that Satan can read the Bible as well as any of us, and therefore he would get agitated as the time for Jesus's return draws bear. (Revelation 12:12).