I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
- Thread starter WPM
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Taken
Well-Known Member
JimKnox
Active Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
Not news …
They who are raptured…
ARE Christs Church…
They ARE Raptured Because they are NOT appointed to Be Subject TO the Wrath TO Come..
Not a mystery the Wrath to Come IS After the Rapture!
Not a Secret…Details of the Wrath to Come was … Given…
Rev 1:
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
To John, “the last living Of Jesus’ Original chosen Apostles”.
Zero effect on me that you struggle to Understand Gods Order and Way…
God Presents, Offers and Fulfills His Word.
Taken
Well-Known Member
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The coming of Christ is a destructive day will catch the wicked unexpected and unprepared but the righteous waiting and ready. We are caught up before the wicked are destroyed with "sudden destruction" and 'none escape'. We are going to be rescued just before the wrath of God is poured out and everyone left behind suffers "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape."
The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
So, "they (the wicked) shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that accompanies Christ's return, but we (the redeemed) are "accounted worthy to escape." It will come upon the rebel "unawares." This is describing the same climactic event. It is the end. Men are either ready or caught unexpectedly; they are caught up or caught on. They are either saved or lost. It is now eternal bliss or eternal torment.
Christ is exhorting His listeners here to be ready for His return, and warning that He will pour out His wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued. This is the time when the heavens and the earth shall pass away.
The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.
The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the sudden destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
So?
What do you care what, when, where, how, why, the Lord summons, delivers His Bride unto Himself?
I surely am not going to be thinking about, wondering, gazing at what is happening ON Earth… during my Wed/lock ceremony with my Groom.
The Lord , in the Likeness as the Son of Man… so the UNSAVED CAN see Him.
He Does not Return to Earth…ALONE!
He Returns WITH Power …
He Return WITH Kingship Authority …
He Returns WITH His (unseen) Angels …
He Returns WITH His (unseen) Bride…
Well you are the one promoting…your presence ON Earth, should you still be living…
No one questioned, asked you, if the End days Wrath would be horrific…
The Trib IS the Days … of Wrath and Tribulations from Heaven… a series of 21 Specific Acts and three Woes occurring over a course of Seven Years.
Those Tribulations and Wraths have nothing whatsoever effect or to do with They…. Who are NOT ON the Earth…
Those Saved IN Christ duh… are NOT ON the Earth!
Sheesh…not a mystery…
I address every question. You avoid every question. Every page on this thread reveals that. You will see Pretribbers cannot show what they believe with one single Scripture or refute what they do not believe. Their theory is in pieces.
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According to the inspired text, the destruction is sudden, wholesale, and none escape. You disagree. You reject the sacred text. Your fight is with God not me.
Where is the Pretrib rapture of the Church, followed by your 7 year tribulation, followed by a 3rd coming?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”
We can see from the wording of the text that this passage is describing one unitary event. Paul correlates the rescue of God's people after coming of the Lord, with the pouring out of the wrath of God upon the wicked at the same time. He was talking to Christians here in Thessaloniki and expressing the same comfort for the same overall climatic event. He is assuring God’s people that this day when Christ comes as a thief in the night will not catch them unexpected. They will not be sleeping. They will be awake. He is exhorting them to “watch and be sober.”
Taken
Well-Known Member
And? News to you?
During the Trib, Christ and His Bride are IN the clouds ABOVE the Earth.
During the Trib, God is fulfilling His Promise to Save His People Israel.
During the Trib, Some Gentiles are Confessing Belief…and Become Saved…
Ya think …Christ Leaves His Bride and scurries back to Earth to Save … late believers?
You think God has not the Authority to Save His People Israel?
You think God has not the ability to Save Gentiles who come into belief During the Trib?
Yes…God can handle Saving men during the Trib…
don’t worry about what is going on, on Earth, while the Lord is in the Clouds With His Saved, prepared Bride.
More avoidance. You cannot address the sacred text. You cannot accept it. You cannot therefore embrace it. The only other option you have now is to run. Your ramblings and avoidance are only advancing the Amillennialist case.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”
Read what is highlighted in green. We can see from the wording of the text that this passage is describing one unitary event. Paul correlates the rescue of God's people after coming of the Lord, with the pouring out of the wrath of God upon the wicked at the same time. He was talking to Christians here in Thessaloniki and expressing the same comfort for the same overall climatic event. He is assuring God’s people that this day when Christ comes as a thief in the night will not catch them unexpected. They will not be sleeping. They will be awake. He is exhorting them to “watch and be sober.”
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Taken
Well-Known Member
No I did not Disagree with Scripture.
I disagree with your gaslighting and ignorance.
Gaslighter…
Your entire mantra is Making up Lies…
Claiming it is an others Belief…
Then Demanding the Other Prove your Lies Are a Scriptural Truth…
And THEN pretending you have Accomplished a Victory in civil discourse debate.
You appear to have a competition going with Satan trying to be more cunning than he.
I do not agree with you.
I do not agree with your thinking, speaking, making false claims for and against others.
I do not agree with your obtuse mindset.
I find nothing civil or Godly in your speech.
I have zero need for you to copy and paste random Scriptures.
Taken
Well-Known Member
I am presenting Scripture and you are hurling ad hominem and false accusations.
You have nothing of biblical value to bring to the table! Checkmate!
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Yea, right! Anyone who disagrees with you is divisive and foolish. Seriously?
Why not admit you have swallowed extra-biblical teaching that contradicts God's Book?
What does "sudden" mean? Sudden!!! There is no space for your imaginary future trib after the one and only destructive and climatic coming of Christ. And, according to the text, not the Left Behind novels, no one escapes His return, like Noah's world and the city of Sodom. This demolishes Pretrib.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, after the supposed pre-trib rapture occurs, where do you think Jesus and His people go after that? You do understand that most pre-tribs believe they go to heaven (the third heaven) after that, don't you? So, no need to get upset just because I didn't realize that you don't believe what a vast majority of pre-tribs believe in this sense.
Don't ask stupid questions. I said He is in the third heaven/paradise. Did you know there are multiple heavens? Paul talked about the third heaven/paradise in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.
Hello? I talked about the third heaven, so why would you not think I know there are 3 heavens? I can't continue talking to you. You're out of your depth here and are unable to carry on an adult conversation.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He doesn't think about how the ridiculous logic he uses to deny that Acts 1:11 refers to the same coming of Christ as Revelation 19:11-21 means that, to be consistent, he can't relate Revelation 19:11-21 to any other verse or passage in scripture. It's just ludicrous reasoning that can't be taken seriously.
