It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

He doesn't think about how the ridiculous logic he uses to deny that Acts 1:11 refers to the same coming of Christ as Revelation 19:11-21 means that, to be consistent, he can't relate Revelation 19:11-21 to any other verse or passage in scripture. It's just ludicrous reasoning that can't be taken seriously.

Absolutely. Talk about foolish reasoning. They do similar with the supposed non-mention of the word "Church" (singular) between Rev 4 and 19. They hang on their own gallows.

 

[JimKnox]

Give it a rest guys.
This is ridiculous.

 

[WPM]

Give it a rest guys.
This is ridiculous.

What are you scared of?

 

[Taken]

You believe He will descend from heaven for the pre-trib rapture, right?

No.

And then turn around and bring the church with Him back to heaven, right?

No.

So, there's one time you believev He will descend from heaven. And then you believe He will descend from heaven again years later at His return. Right?

No.

So, that's 2 future times that you believe Jesus will descend from heaven. How can that be a lie when that's what you

No.

and all pre-tribs believe?

Have never heard that claim, but from you and gaslighters.

That will not be pre-trib. That is something you suppose, but is not taught in scripture.

Nor is what “I Said”.

So, that's why I call it a supposed pre-trib rapture.

Based on what YOU said…regarding what you think an other believes.

I don't fail to understand that. When did I say otherwise? He is in the third heaven/paradise now and will descend from there to the first or second heaven ("the air") and that's where we will meet Him.

Okay.

You don't believe that when He comes …

Why are you now implying… He is coming to Earth to gather His saved?
He calls His Saved UP TO Him. Where He Is.

for the supposed pre-trib rapture that He will then take His people to the third heaven/paradise and then

Why? Nothing indicates that once the risen saved are in the clouds, they then go to higher Heaven.

He will later descend with them at His return?

Yes..

It’s not complicated, but it is Spiritual.

Heaven…IS layered (so to speak)
1, 2, 3…(4)…that you did not mention, nor does scripture mention (4), by a designated “number”.

All of Heaven;
Gods Throne;
Gods Kingdom.
Also described..Being a World different than Earth.

Heaven 1…
Lowest to Earth. Clouds, Thin Air, covers Mountain tops…—->
Earth (land) mountain tops AND clouds (Heaven)…together…
makes SUCH land mountain tops…—->
holy ground.
Men can “see and travel” (temporarily), in lower clouds of heaven…jets, rockets.

Heaven 2…
Beyond the clouds of Heaven 1…
Men Can see from Earth, but not “travel there”.
The “Estate” of Gods Holy Servants Spirits, called Holy Angels.
They “thousands”, there day and night… and they can travel To Earth…
They recognizable by men on Earth, at night, By their “shining light”, simply called / referenced…”stars”.
(men can, have studied with the aid of high powered telescopes)

Heaven 3…
A place… Prepared…for Departed (out from dead bodies) … Saved souls and Quickened spirits of Faithful men…waiting in peace and comfort For the day their Dead body is Raised Glorified…(so their soul and spirit) can be returned to their body).
(Beyond the Stars..men also study with telescope devices and speculate)

Heaven 4…
The Heaven Above the Heaven(S)
Gods “Estate”… where no part, (body, soul, spirit) of man goes…
Where there is no implication Angels have access…But implication an Angel believing, attempting to Access, would be Doomed, cast down….barred from 2 & 3 heavens.
(men have also “studied”… see…what they can Not see…
Simply called in science…”a black hole”…where nothing is seen inside, seen entering, seen exiting.)

The Lord God has Full Access to Move about His Kingdom… All of Heaven…

His Movement in the Heavens IS NOT Him coming TO, or Returning To Earth!

The Lord….Does not Leave Heaven, TO Gather His Saved IN Christ…
The Lord Summons / Calls the Saved IN Christ, (His Church, His Bride), UP to the Lower Heaven 1)… Clouds… Air… to meet Him… While Wrath…from Heaven IS Being Sent From Heaven TO the face of the Earth… negatively affecting Every inhabitant ON the Earth.

I have Never heard (as you claim)…Any Rapture Believer… or pre-tribber as some say…make such a claim that the Lord comes TO Earth to gather those SAVED IN Christ.


(Earth (man’s Estate) as well has (layers so to speak) and each layer From surface (face), to IN the Earth (like Heaven) has its specific purposes.)

 

[Taken]

So, after the supposed pre-trib rapture occurs, where do you think Jesus and His people go after that?

an adult conversation.

Sure…. By both parties.

You ARE asking me to answer … based on your thoughts…

So…based on my belief Of a pre-trib Rapture ( for ONLY those Saved IN Christ, who Have Been called / summoned UP TO the Lower Heavens / clouds )

Where do the Saved IN Christ Thereafter Go?

Wherever the Lord Goes…

Which is Revealed IN Scripture…

When the Lord Leaves the Lower Heaven…
He goes TO “A singular White Cloud”…

Understanding…
The Saved IN Christ… were Raised Up to the cloud(S) IN their changed … renewed… Glorified Body…
Which Human men ON Earth can Not See.

Understanding…
Also With the Lord … ARE thousands of His Holy Angel Servants…who Are Spirits…
Which Human men ON Earth can Not See.

And When The Lord … descends From the cloud(S) to a singular WHITE Cloud… ( with His unseen Angels and saved Bride )…

He the Lord, is Expressly Seen By all men on Earth…
Because He Sits on such Express White Cloud…IN the Same Likeness…Body… “AS the Son of Man”… men Anciently Saw… when He came to Earth the First time, baring the Name….JESUS… and Title …Lord.

And remember… cloud(S), A Cloud… is Not a Return TO Earth.

So for as long as the Lord JESUS is ON that White Cloud, doing what He Shall Do…
His Saved IN Christ / Bride / Church AND His Holy Angel Servants… ARE With Him.

 

[CrowCross]

Facts are stubborn things. I refer you back.

Let me repeat.....Do the honorable thing and admit you're wrong....Repent of your pride.

 

[CrowCross]

No… Offered Before a mans bodily Death.

Which means once received...you are eternally saved?

Agreed to Receive According to Gods Order and Way.

Literally Given After Agreeing, and After Bodily Death Accounting.

The Dead body can Agree to nothing.

 

[WPM]

Let me repeat.....Do the honorable thing and admit you're wrong....Repent of your pride.

I can always tell when Pretribbers are conceding defeat and are ready to run - this!

 

[WPM]

Have never heard that claim, but from you and gaslighters.

Projection! This perfectly describes yourself and most Pretribbers who engage here.

 

[Taken]

Which means once received...you are eternally saved?

Absolutely.
In brief…

For two Reasonings OF WHY.
1) the gift of Salvation is ONLY given After a body is Account in Gods Records Being Dead.
(A mortally dead body, that died heartfully believing IN God, that Which God searches the heart for a man’s Truth). Their name remains IN Gods Book of Life.

2) the gift of Salvation given a man …
After “confessing his Heartful Belief”
Heart searched, confession verified.
Agrees to ——>
“crucifixion” DEATH of their body…with Jesus’ crucifixion.
Yes, their body is still living…
However… their “crucifixion agreement with Jesus’ body, IS accounted as satisfying Their ONE Death Requirement.

How / Why can THAT man not change his mind, and stop believing?

Because …
1) it was Not the carnal minds thoughts, that made the confession ( if it was, he would not be saved to begin with)…

It’s is the hearts thoughts / belief God accepts….not the mind.

2) the moment a heart confess true Belief…
The Lord Gods Spirit of Power (ie Christ) enters “IN” that man…and it IS BY Gods Power, IN that man, that that man CAN never Again, Not Believe ie. Sin Against God.

3) that man IS account Saved, Once and Forever…called… IN Christ…occupying His Risen Body…and…Christ (Gods Power), IN that man.

4) His Name is Then recorded IN “The Lambs Book of Life”.

They whose names Are never blotted Out of Gods Book of Life… Are Saved and risen up by God…
First Resurrection.

They whose names Are also in the Lambs book of Life… Are saved and Risen up By the Lord and Power Christ…
Rapture.

Christ Jesus…
Arrived, 2,000+ years ago
offered, through an Open Door to Him…
A way to receive Salvation Before mortal death…
Before the wrath and Tribulation from Heaven Begin…
That Door is Closed…
Because… Those Saved, Church, Bride … have left the Earth… and are participating in their Wedding, in the clouds…with their Groom.

On Earth… during the Trib… men coming into Heartful belief, who mortaly / body die… God will save.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WPM]

Pretribbers are incapable of proving what they have been taught. That is why they run for the exits when challenged. That is why they resort to ad hominem when their theory is exposed. The pattern is predictable and normal. Their theology is extra-biblical. Their rhetoric is all noise. Their theology can be found no where in Scripture. Sadly, they know it, but refuse to abandon it. They are therefore in love with what they have been taught, not what the Bible teaches. Here is the proof:

Where is your catching away in the book of Revelation before a tribulation period?

In your ignorance.

Taken said:

There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations as you have repeatedly asked and been told There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations…

So why believe that?

Taken said:

There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations as you have repeatedly asked and been told There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations…

Where is your 7 year trib or any lengthy trib in 1 Thess 4 after the catching away? It is time to cough up or shut up Where is the Son of man three days and three nights in the heart of the earth in 1 Thes 4? In 1 Thess 4 there is no mention of any period of tribulation.

So?

Where is the Son of man three days and three nights in the heart of the earth in 1 Thes 4?

So, why believe that?

There is NO rapture in Revelations!

Where does the Bible teach a 7 year tribulation after the coming of Christ? And, yes, we are currently in the symbolic 1000 year reign of Christ.

CrowCross said:

The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation.

So why believe that?

CrowCross said:

Where is the verse as well as history that shows we are currently beyond Rev 19?

• Where is the rapture of the Church mentioned in Daniel 9?
• Where is a seven-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
• Where is a third coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
• Where is Adams fall mentioned in Daniel 9?

This sums up Pretrib. It is ridiculous and nonsensical.

Show me the rapture of the Church in the rest of Scripture?

Doesn’t exist. Rapture applies to Heartful Converted IN Christ Believers.

Where is the Pretrib 3rd coming in Scripture?

There is no third coming.
Nor have I claimed there was.
So go take your dumb question to whomever made that dumb claim!

So why believe that?

Pretribs are incapable of showing two future comings of Jesus anywhere in God's holy Book with a 7 yr trib (or any trib) in between. This whole theory is a man-made invention that Pretribs are incapable of biblically proving. It should be rejected by all sound Bible students.