Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[ewq1938]

????? I don't see it that way. The condition the world was in before the flood would be NOT BE the tribulation.
Like today the world is full of evil...like with Noah the world was full of evil....BUT.....despite this evil there was a social economic times described by Jesus. After the flood the social economic conditions did NOT exist. After Sodom was destroyed the social economic times Jesus spoke of no longer existed...and neither did Sodom.
Christians like Noah and Lot will be removed at the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection event where Jesus returns in the way He left in....when the social economical conditions will be similar.....OR DO YOU DISAGREE?

Disagree.

What a strange concept...."Pretrib always makes the error of placing the wrath of God in the trib"....then when is the wrath of God?

After the trib.

Point out the pre-trib mistake.

I did. Wrath does not happen at the same time God is allowing evil to do evil things. The wrath comes after as punishment.

You place the wrath of God at the end of the tribulation.

No, it comes AFTER the trib has ended.

That is, according to you, the 7 years are over....then comes the wrath...JUDGEMENT...of God. The wrath begins when the first seal is opened by Jesus and the antichrist comes trotting out on his white horse.

No, that's not the wrath of God. That's the wrath of satan through the AC.

 

[rebuilder 454]

 

[PinSeeker]

I tell you--the Judgement was even before the foundation of the world--before the world began--as was the Lamb slain.

In the sense that God's plan for the fullness of time was in place then, yes. And that God is eternally present. "I tell you..." <chuckles>

I tell you--the Way spoken of in the scriptures, is the way of the Kingdom--in spirit, as God is spirit.

The Bible is true, yes. Agreed. <smile>

There is no "age" to come per se, but rather eternity.

Which is the age to come. <smile>

Which is only "to come" in the sense that those who pass from death to life do so hereafter. Which is only true from the perspective of this world--a perspective of the dead referred to in their own language--which perspective also passes away, leaving only eternity...which always was and shall be.

<sigh>

No. On the contrary, it is given to me to [actually] know, for mine is the finish. Therefore, when I tell you, "I tell you the truth"--it is not from me--not mine, but from God.

Ah, well, most everyone here would say that, Scott.

"Super-spiritual" is accurate, for it is of God. As for "no call for"--that is not true--the call of God is of God, and He calls when and who He please according to His own will and plan, as it is written.

God's Word is His Word, yes, agreed. But that's not what I was saying...

None of which you have to believe, and you can call it what you will.

Thanks, I guess...

But that speaks of you and your will, not me or mine.

What you say speaks volumes about you, Scott. You should try on some humility; it would look good on you. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CrowCross]

Whether you are being sarcastic or envious, remember what Jesus said to Peter when he asked "what about [John]? Jesus replied, "What is that to you?"

So, what--what is that to you if God has bestowed upon me a great calling? How is it that you don't know or don't respect what He has done with many others, as is His way? And why would I not be forthright, when called upon to do so? Why would you be against rather than for such?

It's the way you present yourself.

Maybe I'm wrong but I see a lot of arrogance.

 

[CrowCross]

Disagree.





After the trib.




I did. Wrath does not happen at the same time God is allowing evil to do evil things. The wrath comes after as punishment.




No, it comes AFTER the trib has ended.





No, that's not the wrath of God. That's the wrath of satan through the AC.

With all due respect..you sound like another here who post as if Noah got on the ark after the flood.

 

[PinSeeker]

It's the way you present yourself. Maybe I'm wrong but I see a lot of arrogance.

You're not wrong about that, CrowCross. I might call it something like head-in-the-clouds arrogance... kind of a double-whammy... At any rate very uncalled for... unbecoming, and certainly not Christ-like.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

They seem to fail to realize God removed them from the flood.

He didn't remove them from it, but carried and protected them through it. And in this way, Noah's Ark, CrowCross ~ the boat itself ~ is a shadow, a type of Jesus, our Savior Who carries ~ is carrying ~ us through the flood.

They didn't go through the judgement.

They did, but Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord and so did not subject Noah to it. And we Christians will stand before Christ in the final judgment along with everyone else. But, since we have found favor in the eyes of the Lord, much like Noah did, we will be on Jesus's right in the final judgment, in the congregation of the righteous and will thus stand in the judgment... as opposed to those who will be on Jesus's left, who will not stand in the judgment but go... the way of the wicked... away into eternal punishment, which is the second death.

God shut the door prior to the rain starting.

Sure He did.

Where does the bible suggest the 1,000 years means the fulness of time? Once again I don't see this in the bible.

Scott is right about the number 1,000, CrowCross. Three examples I can think of:

• "He remembers His covenant forever, the word that He commanded, for a thousand generations" (Psalm 105) ...which means not just literally one thousand generations, but ALL generations
• "For every beast of the forest is Mine, the cattle on a thousand hills are the Lord's" (Psalm 50) ...which means ALL cattle and ALL hills... ALL of creation itself
• "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day to the Lord" (Psalm 90, 2 Peter 3) ...which means God is outside of time itself and present in what we might call the "eternal now,"

The number 1,000 is used in different contexts and regarding different things to represent a totality, or all-encompassment, or, yes, a fullness, a completeness. So, yes, the millennium of Revelation 20, the thousand years, is a fullness of time, our time that will continue until all Israel is saved ~ the fullness of the Gentiles and the removal of the partial hardening that is now on Israel ~ as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26.

The christians will be resurrected or raptured prior to the tribulation beginning.

All will be resurrected ~ "...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29) ~ after the tribulation has ended. And there will be no "rapture" in the sense of anyone being taken anywhere; after the final judgment, again, the unrepentant, unbelievers, will depart ~ at Jesus's command ~ into this judgment, into eternal punishment, this "outer darkness." Scott is right about this, too, CrowCross... <chuckles> ...that Christ's return will be a very rapturous event, but not a "rapture" in the sense of being removed or taken anywhere.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CrowCross]

He didn't remove them from it, but carried and protected them through it.

The ark wasn't a submarine. It floated above the judgement.

And in this way, Noah's Ark, CrowCross ~ the boat itself ~ is a shadow, a type of Jesus, our Savior Who carries ~ is carrying ~ us through the flood.

Yes, the ark is a shadow or a type of Christ...a shadow or type that derived them FROM the flood. Carried them above the water....they didn't drown.

They did, but Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord and so did not subject Noah to it. And we Christians will stand before Christ in the final judgment along with everyone else.

I don't see it that way. There are two judgements...The Great White Throne and the Judgement Seat of Christ (Bema).
Christians will not be at the White Throne Judgement.

But, since we have found favor in the eyes of the Lord, much like Noah did, we will be on Jesus's right in the final judgment, in the congregation of the righteous and will thus stand in the judgment... as opposed to those who will be on Jesus's left, who will not stand in the judgment but go... the way of the wicked... away into eternal punishment, which is the second death.

This sounds like the end of the 1000 year reign judgement.

Sure He did.


Scott is right about the number 1,000, CrowCross. Three examples I can think of:

• "He remembers His covenant forever, the word that He commanded, for a thousand generations" (Psalm 105) ...which means not just literally one thousand generations, but ALL generations
• "For every beast of the forest is Mine, the cattle on a thousand hills are the Lord's" (Psalm 50) ...which means ALL cattle and ALL hills... ALL of creation itself
• "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day to the Lord" (Psalm 90, 2 Peter 3) ...which means God is outside of time itself and present in what we might call the "eternal now,"

The number 1,000 is used in different contexts and regarding different things to represent a totality, or all-encompassment, or, yes, a fullness, a completeness. So, yes, the millennium of Revelation 20, the thousand years, is a fullness of time, our time that will continue until all Israel is saved ~ the fullness of the Gentiles and the removal of the partial hardening that is now on Israel ~ as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26.

Would you like a list of verses that show where 1,000 is presented as literal?
For some reason you demand the 1,000 year reign is "symbolic" and in no way can be literal.

We can read chapters such as Rev 8....and look into space and see a potential LITERAL fulfillment of that prophecy happening on April 13th 2029 with Apophis.
We can read Rev 13 and look at the growing beast system CURRENTLY being developed on earth..and how our technology can bring that to fruition.
Now, if you need all of it to be symbolic....go for it.

All will be resurrected ~ "...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29) ~ after the tribulation has ended. And there will be no "rapture" in the sense of anyone being taken anywhere; after the final judgment, again, the unrepentant, unbelievers, will depart ~ at Jesus's command ~ into this judgment, into eternal punishment, this "outer darkness." Scott is right about this, too, CrowCross... <chuckles> ...that Christ's return will be a very rapturous event, but not a "rapture" in the sense of being removed or taken anywhere.

There are two returns....one when the social economics are like what Jesus mentioned and a second at the end of the tribulation when the social economic conditions are not met.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The ark wasn't a submarine. It floated above the judgement.

LOL! Sure. It kept Noah and his family ~ and the animals, of course ~ safe in the midst of the judgment placed upon the world. Yeah, it floated, for sure. LOL!

Yes, the ark is a shadow or a type of Christ...

Good.

a shadow or type that derived them...

"derived"... Do you know what that word means, CrowCross? I mean, coming from or caused by something else... Noah was not caused by the flood. LOL!

FROM the flood.

Carried them. Through the flood.

Carried them above the water....they didn't drown.

Uh, the boat was in the water...<smile> ...which covered the face of the earth <smile> ...floating on the water, and so not under the water.... <chuckles> So, right, they didn't drown, because God provided protection from the water. And, as God said afterward to Noah, "the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh" (Genesis 9:15).

I don't see it that way.

Fair enough.

There are two judgements...

Only one. No need for more than one. Again, as Christ said, "...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29), And as Paul says:

• "(God) will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury" (Romans 2:6-8)
• "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil" (2 Corinthians 5:10)
• Christ Jesus will judge the living and the dead (2 Timothy 4:1).

Christ described the final judgment vividly in Matthew 25:31-46... all are present. So, two outcomes, yes, one good and one... bad <shudder> ...but one final judgment.

The Great White Throne and the Judgement Seat of Christ (Bema).

One and the same.

Christians will not be at the White Throne Judgement.

Yes they will... <smile> We will be on Christ's right...

This sounds like the end of the 1000 year reign judgement.

Well, right. Who is your King, CrowCross? Right now. Who is your King?

Would you like a list of verses that show where 1,000 is presented as literal?

Ah, well, yes, there are times in the Bible where numbers are literal in the way you mean that. No need. There are different contexts that certain words and, yes, numbers, and those contexts determine the degree of literal-ness.

For some reason you demand the 1,000 year reign is "symbolic" and in no way can be literal.

Well, it's both. Jesus is reigning now; this is His millennial reign. It's just not... wooden... not literally one thousand 365-day periods. We've had, to this point, over two thousand of those since His millennial reign began. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God.

We can read chapters such as Rev 8....and look into space and see a potential LITERAL fulfillment of that prophecy happening on April 13th 2029 with Apophis.

Uh-oh, date-setting... <smile> April 13th... I hope that's not a Friday... <chuckles> As I said before regarding Revelation 8, Revelation 8:2 begins the second vision given to John. I alluded to such in posts 200 and 206...

We can read Rev 13 and look at the growing beast system CURRENTLY being developed on earth..and how our technology can bring that to fruition.

As I said in post 200, it is a terrible misreading of Revelation to think everything mentioned is strictly chronologically sequential. What John is given is not just one vision but seven concurrent visions ~ each one spanning the same time period. Specifically, here, the events we "see" with John in Revelation 13 (the third of seven cycles) are concurrent with the events from Revelation 8:2 up through Revelation 11 (the second of seven cycles). Jesus's return and the second resurrection is "led up to," or approached, but stopped short of. In a nutshell... <chuckles> We don't actually "see" Jesus's return until the sixth and seventh cycles, and only in the seventh do we "see" the New Heaven and New Earth.

Now, if you need all of it to be symbolic....go for it.

No need. Again, it's both literal and symbolic, but neither one, really, in the sense in which you mean those two things (literal and symbolic).

There are two returns....

One. No need for a second second return... <chuckles> And no Biblical warrant for believing there will be. Yeah, when Jesus comes back, He'll be here to stay. <smile> And... we will stay with Him, even after the final judgment, as we will have been judged according to His righteousness... in the New Heaven and New Earth.

one when the social economics are like what Jesus mentioned and a second at the end of the tribulation when the social economic conditions are not met.

Ah, back to "social economics"... <chuckles> There will continue to be tribulation in this life... we will continue to have it, just as Jesus said, and there will continue to be those who go about their business as if there is no judgment to come, as if the Lord is not coming... I mean yeah, those are the "social economic conditions"... have been ever since the events of Genesis 3...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He tried to use getting on the boat as some sort of answer to the social economic conditions of the day....which was strange.

In the end it sounded like @jeffweeder was presenting a theology christians are only raptured after the tribulation...which is him saying Noah got on the ark after the flood.

I trust you stand corrected.

You apparently have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever because that's not at all what he was saying and I know what he believes. He would never try to relate the flood to the tribulation that relates to the timing of the rapture. The flood should be compared to the wrath that will occur when Jesus returns, not to things that happen during the days that lead up to His return. The days of Noah should be compared to the time that occurs before Jesus returns and then the flood can be compared to the wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns. I know that is how Jeff sees it as well, so to claim that he was saying that Christians being raptured after the tribulation means he was saying that Noah got on the ark after the flood is completely ludicrous and not at all what he was saying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't see it that way. There are two judgements...The Great White Throne and the Judgement Seat of Christ (Bema).
Christians will not be at the White Throne Judgement.

Those are one and the same judgment. There is only one judgment day (one judgment event) and that's why Jesus often referred to "the day of judgment". The one future day of judgment is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 and all people, saved and lost, will be there and it will occur when Jesus comes with His angels. Jesus made it clear that at that time believers will inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world while unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" for "everlasting punishment". One judgment with all people being divided into two groups with each group entering into different eternal destinies.

There are two returns....one when the social economics are like what Jesus mentioned and a second at the end of the tribulation when the social economic conditions are not met.

You keep saying things like this with no explanation of what you're talking about. How do you interpret this passage...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I forgot you're the ultimate authority on Revelation.

No, but compared to you I might as well be.

Have you ever taken the time to see just how literal Revelation can be? Often the literal is presented in symbolic form.

What does that even mean? The text is not both literal and symbolic at the same time. The symbolic text represents things that are real, but is not to be taken literally itself.

 

[ScottA]

It's the way you present yourself.

Maybe I'm wrong but I see a lot of arrogance.

Humbly forthright.

Maybe you shouldn't be so judgemental.

 

[jeffweeder]

You apparently have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever because that's not at all what he was saying and I know what he believes. He would never try to relate the flood to the tribulation that relates to the timing of the rapture. The flood should be compared to the wrath that will occur when Jesus returns, not to things that happen during the days that lead up to His return. The days of Noah should be compared to the time that occurs before Jesus returns and then the flood can be compared to the wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns. I know that is how Jeff sees it as well, so to claim that he was saying that Christians being raptured after the tribulation means he was saying that Noah got on the ark after the flood is completely ludicrous and not at all what he was saying.

Thanks Eric.
This guy either deliberately misrepresents what I say or totally ignores the questions asked him.

The scriptures he has taken seriously are those in Revelation that he has personally interpreted it seems to me.




Crow,
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


This simply means that life goes on just has it always has, and then the unexpected happens that changes everything.

 

[ScottA]

In the sense that God's plan for the fullness of time was in place then, yes. And that God is eternally present. "I tell you..." <chuckles>

Most look at the plan of God that way...but only because that is "our" "worldly" perspective. But God's plan should be viewed from "His" perspective. Shouldn't you think?

Yes, on the contrary, the plan of God as we experience is not unlike us, and is a mere "image" of what is actually real with and in God and the kingdom of God. Meaning, that just as Jesus is the image of the Father, revealing the Father, we also created in His image, as a mere revealing--making all the world and God's "plan" a revelation by "image" of what is only actually real in God.

Unfortunately, men make their own little created worlds, like movies, cartoons, and animations, never imagining that God done something similar only a thousand, thousands times better.

 

[ScottA]

Which is the age to come. <smile>

You can call that now (as the scriptures also do), but that means not pressing on as the scriptures also say.

So like those born again of the spirit of God are blessed to be a part of the first resurrection, we can also be blessed with the renewing of our minds...or not.

 

[PinSeeker]

Humbly forthright.

Maybe you shouldn't be so judgmental.

Well, forthright... I mean, nobody ~ I don't think, at least ~ questions your directness, honesty, or straightforwardness, Scott. Even with that being the case, though, it is still possible to be... mistaken... <smile>

But to the point, here, the general tenor of at least your most recent posts is... very clear.

And, too, there's a whole lot of judgmental-ness going on here... And maybe a little hypocrisy... <smile>

Most look at the plan of God that way...but only because that is "our" "worldly" perspective. But God's plan should be viewed from "His" perspective.

Well, it can be viewed from both, from ours, which we can do because we are us. <smile> From God's, though, only through what He has told us. "Worldly"... We can say "worldly" in different contexts; that even happens in Scripture. In this life, we are all "worldly" in the sense of being in this world and experiencing events as they occur in this world, and that's really what we've been discussing. And there's no problem with that. The problem is blurring the line between the two and/or conflating the two.

Shouldn't you think?

It should be considered from both perspectives, ours, and to the extent possible, God's.

Yes, on the contrary, the plan of God as we experience is not unlike us, and is a mere "image" of what is actually real with and in God and the kingdom of God. Meaning, that just as Jesus is the image of the Father, revealing the Father, we also created in His image, as a mere revealing--making all the world and God's "plan" a revelation by "image" of what is only actually real in God.

Well now that's a mouthful... <chuckles> But for now, yes, we do see in a mirror dimly. One great day it will be face to face. Now we know in part; then we shall know fully, even as we have been fully known (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Unfortunately, men make their own little created worlds, like movies, cartoons, and animations, never imagining that God done something similar only a thousand, thousands times better.

Hmmmm... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

Ah, well, most everyone here would say that, Scott

You could say that, but what do the scriptures say? Do they say, "I knew 'every' man in Christ, or 'a' man in Christ caught up to the third heaven?"

 

[ScottA]

What you say speaks volumes about you, Scott.

Yes, volumes.

 

[ScottA]

Well, it can be viewed from both, from ours, which we can do because we are us. <smile> From God's, though, only through what He has told us. "Worldly"... We can say "worldly" in different contexts; that even happens in Scripture. In this life, we are all "worldly" in the sense of being in this world and experiencing events as they occur in this world, and that's really what we've been discussing. And there's no problem with that. The problem is blurring the line between the two and/or conflating the two.

Those who at the world as being of the world, are yet of the world.