Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[GRACE ambassador]

The pre-trib rapture theory is just nothing but a collection of random thoughts that come from people's imaginations.

Getting quite wearisome from these kind of accusations [ Wait! Isn't that against CB forum rules? ], but,
as in the wise words of precious friend 70-year-old Charlie24:

"Well, it's not easily explained, it covers much Scripture, many things to understand.":

It is God's Sound Doctrine from a comprehensive study of All Of God's Related Scriptures, Rightly
Divided, and "Profitable For Doctrine", according to:

A) Bible study Rules, and:

B) [ prayerful / Careful 18-month study ] Outline:

(1) am I using The Right Bible?
(2) am I obeying God's Excellent "study" Rules!?*

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...*
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided = God's Timelines?
(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) Great Tribulation? Or tribulations/Greate GRACE Departure!
(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?
(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, for "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"
(10) "Day Of CHRIST!"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)​

- "The Day Of The LORD"?​

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Return "Without Warning!"?

(13)The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of GRACE!!"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!!* vs U-turn (theology?)

- Back To earth?​

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?
(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

C) Conclusion (Part 17): God's Great GRACE Departure!

Q: One verse makes a Sound doctrine?:

Some Opponents have not been very interested in discussing these Important things, usually
only blasting out their one favorite cherry-picked "post-trib" verse in Matthew, eh?

However, if one can "prayerfully / Carefully" 'debunk' All Of These Related Scriptures "Decently and
In Order", Only Then can pre-trib Grace believers change our humble minds over to agree with
our opponents, ok?

Amen.

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Just [ imagine? ], or Better Yet: prayerfully / Carefully study All Scripture, Rightly Divided?:

​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wow. Exactly my point. The trump of God is the voice of God. We find the trump of God in 1 Thes 4 which is about the rapture of the Church.

The trump of God has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the last trump.

All you do is make baseless claims. There is no reason whatsoever for you to come to that conclusion. There is only one trumpet that will sound after Christ descends for the one and only time in the future and it's referred to in various ways. The trump of God. The last trumpet. The seventh trumpet. It's all the same trumpet.

The last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets and is found in 1 Corinthians 15. The last trump also has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

Another baseless claim. That's all you have. I can't take you seriously even a tiny bit.

It is blown at the 6th seal and is the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the wrath of God which occurs immediately after the great tribulation.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


It appears that you do not know the difference between the trump of God which is the voice of God and the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

It appears that you just make things up. The trump of God is also referred to as the voice of the archangel. You conveniently left that out.

No. Of course not. The Church is raptured to heaven at the trump of God, 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Those raptured in 1 Corinthians 15 are raptured at the 6th seal prior to the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. This is talking about the people of Daniel who go through the great tribulation.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.




The Church is already in heaven before the great tribulation. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel will have its blindness removed. God turns His attention to the people of Daniel.

No evidence. LOL. The Church is in heaven as kings and priests before the seals are opened. Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There's lots of evidence.

You lack understanding. There are two folds that become one fold which is the great multitude. The first fold is the Church and second fold is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman.

You have literally zero discernment about end times doctrine. Not a little bit. Zero. And that results in things like believing in two raptures and in not recognizing that the two folds Jesus talked about were the first Jewish fold of believers that He had at the time He talked about that and then the other fold of Gentile believers that would be joined together with the first fold as one flock, which is exactly what happened. The two folds represent Jew and Gentile believers joined together as one flock under Christ. Paul also referred to us as "one new man" and "one body". For any Christian to not understand things like this is rather disturbing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Getting quite wearisome from these kind of accusations [ Wait! Isn't that against CB forum rules? ],

It's against the rules to make comments about a doctrine? I don't think so. I didn't say anything personal about any person.

but,
as in the wise words of precious friend 70-year-old Charlie24:

"Well, it's not easily explained, it covers much Scripture, many things to understand.":

It is God's Sound Doctrine from a comprehensive study of All Of God's Related Scriptures, Rightly
Divided, and "Profitable For Doctrine", according to:

A) Bible study Rules, and:

B) [ prayerful / Careful 18-month study ] Outline:

(1) am I using The Right Bible?
(2) am I obeying God's Excellent "study" Rules!?*

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...*
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided = God's Timelines?
(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) Great Tribulation? Or tribulations/Greate GRACE Departure!
(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For HIS Body!?
(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, for "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"
(10) "Day Of CHRIST!"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)

- "The Day Of The LORD"?​

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Return "Without Warning!"?

(13)The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of GRACE!!"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!!* vs U-turn (theology?)

- Back To earth?​

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?
(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

C) Conclusion (Part 17): God's Great GRACE Departure!

Q: One verse makes a Sound doctrine?:

Some Opponents have not been very interested in discussing these Important things, usually
only blasting out their one favorite cherry-picked "post-trib" verse in Matthew, eh?

However, if one can "prayerfully / Carefully" 'debunk' All Of These Related Scriptures "Decently and
In Order", Only Then can pre-trib Grace believers change our humble minds over to agree with
our opponents, ok?

Amen.

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Just [ imagine? ], or Better Yet: prayerfully / Carefully study All Scripture, Rightly Divided?:

View attachment 90503

You appear to be unable to present your view in a clear way. That's all as clear as mud as far as I'm concerned. It does not appear that you know how to exegete scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

Actually... <chuckles> This is not necessarily meant specifically for you, Scott, but...

Thanks for the clarification!

But since you also commented, to finish the complete messaged as returning to "Jerusalem"-- What is the original meaning of "Jerusalem", and what would your translation look like with the meaning of Jerusalem included in your explanation?

Yes, Jesus says, in Luke 17:20, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed"... and we can understand at least two things in that:

• It is very closely related, intimately, really, to what He says to Nicodemus in John 3..."...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
• And He is saying there in Luke 17:20 ~ yet again, because by that point He had said as much several times ~ and again in the same breath, in the very next verse, Luke 17:21, "...for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you." That word 'for' is important... it's equivalent to 'because' or 'therefore,' so it further clarifies what has just been said previously. So, it can't be observed for the first time... as if at any time going forward it was not there already. Even then, Jesus was saying God's Kingdom was already there. This is the now-and-not-yet... in this case concerning the Kingdom of God... now here, so already inaugurated/begun... but not yet consummated, or brought to completion, so not yet complete. And this is still true... but not for much longer... <smile> Jesus will return. Soon. <smile> Well, so does 'soon' mean tomorrow, or in the next few weeks or years? Um, maybe... <smile> ...but God's time is not our time. To God, a thousand years is as a day, and a day a thousand years... <smile> But no matter how much of our time elapses, God does not tarry. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[The Light]

All you do is make baseless claims. There is no reason whatsoever for you to come to that conclusion. There is only one trumpet that will sound after Christ descends for the one and only time in the future and it's referred to in various ways. The trump of God. The last trumpet. The seventh trumpet. It's all the same trumpet.

It seems you unable to understand the difference between the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels. Two different events.

Another baseless claim. That's all you have. I can't take you seriously even a tiny bit.

You seem unable to understand the difference between the trump of God, which is the voice of God and the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Ask a rabi what the last trump is...........any rabbi.

It appears that you just make things up. The trump of God is also referred to as the voice of the archangel. You conveniently left that out.

It appears that you think that the voice of an archangel is the same as the voice of God.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You have literally zero discernment about end times doctrine. Not a little bit. Zero. And that results in things like believing in two raptures and in not recognizing that the two folds Jesus talked about were the first Jewish fold of believers that He had at the time He talked about that and then the other fold of Gentile believers that would be joined together with the first fold as one flock, which is exactly what happened. The two folds represent Jew and Gentile believers joined together as one flock under Christ. Paul also referred to us as "one new man" and "one body". For any Christian to not understand things like this is rather disturbing.

The two flocks that become one flock are made up of the Gentiles, the first flock, and the Jews, the second flock. We can easily prove that.

Proof 1

The Gentiles are the first fold because we know Jesus and Jesus knows us. The Jews do not know Jesus

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Jews reject Jesus and will be the second fold.

Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Proof 2

The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. However, they served Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the first harvest as the Jews are found as grapes in the wilderness........wild grapes.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in with the rapture of the Church before the great tribulation, there are 144,000 first fruits. The fathers of Israel were no longer seen as 1st fruits, so the 144,000 become first fruits of the second harvest or second time of the fig tree.

The fig tree has two harvests, there will be two raptures. If you don't understand these things, I can't help that.

 

[ScottA]

Actually... <chuckles> This is not necessarily meant specifically for you, Scott, but...


Yes, Jesus says, in Luke 17:20, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed"... and we can understand at least two things in that:

• It is very closely related, intimately, really, to what He says to Nicodemus in John 3..."...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
• And He is saying there in Luke 17:20 ~ yet again, because by that point He had said as much several times ~ and again in the same breath, in the very next verse, Luke 17:21, "...for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you." That word 'for' is important... it's equivalent to 'because' or 'therefore,' so it further clarifies what has just been said previously. So, it can't be observed for the first time... as if at any time going forward it was not there already. Even then, Jesus was saying God's Kingdom was already there. This is the now-and-not-yet... in this case concerning the Kingdom of God... now here, so already inaugurated/begun... but not yet consummated, or brought to completion, so not yet complete. And this is still true... but not for much longer... <smile> Jesus will return. Soon. <smile> Well, so does 'soon' mean tomorrow, or in the next few weeks or years? Um, maybe... <smile> ...but God's time is not our time. To God, a thousand years is as a day, and a day a thousand years... <smile> But no matter how much of our time elapses, God does not tarry. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

That is not what was being discussed. William first stated the first quote below, and then asked to include "Jerusalem" in his translation he gave the meaning of Jerusalem...which then is a good translation of the passage and topic:

Luke 17:20 says:
ουκ ερχεται η βασιλεια του θεου μετα παρατηρησεως
not comes the kingdom that of God with signs to be observed

The return of Jesus will be sudden and unexpected (Revelation 19:11-21).
The return is to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem
יךושלים
ירו yerou = city
שלים shalom = peace
City of Peace

"At that time Jerusalem will be known as the throne of the Lord" (Jeremiah 3:17)

So the full translation of Luke 17:20 would be:

not comes the kingdom that of God with signs to be observed in the place where peace is come (in this world).

 

[ScottA]

Actually... <chuckles> This is not necessarily meant specifically for you, Scott, but...


Yes, Jesus says, in Luke 17:20, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed"... and we can understand at least two things in that:

• It is very closely related, intimately, really, to what He says to Nicodemus in John 3..."...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
• And He is saying there in Luke 17:20 ~ yet again, because by that point He had said as much several times ~ and again in the same breath, in the very next verse, Luke 17:21, "...for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you." That word 'for' is important... it's equivalent to 'because' or 'therefore,' so it further clarifies what has just been said previously. So, it can't be observed for the first time... as if at any time going forward it was not there already. Even then, Jesus was saying God's Kingdom was already there. This is the now-and-not-yet... in this case concerning the Kingdom of God... now here, so already inaugurated/begun... but not yet consummated, or brought to completion, so not yet complete. And this is still true... but not for much longer... <smile> Jesus will return. Soon. <smile> Well, so does 'soon' mean tomorrow, or in the next few weeks or years? Um, maybe... <smile> ...but God's time is not our time. To God, a thousand years is as a day, and a day a thousand years... <smile> But no matter how much of our time elapses, God does not tarry. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

Your understanding above contradicts Jesus saying, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Indeed, the kingdom of God had come upon them--Jesus said that.

But regarding His return, He spoke of those of whom He was firstfruits as not being visible like the wind...which then applies to His return, because when He first came He was the Son of Man (not yet the firstfruits) and visible. Which then is confirmed in "there you may be also", as opposed to here in the world.

 

[The Light]

Also, in Rev 1 when Jesus spoke it sounded like a trumpet.

I try to save this one for when they insist that the trump of God is not the voice of God. However, it can be clear in the scripture, and they won't believe it because it goes against learned doctrine.

 

[Davy]

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. There is a harvest, seen here.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here we go again...

The 2nd part of the 6th SEAL of Rev.6 does show the event of Christ's 2nd and only coming. The 7th Seal is shown later as a 'selah' (rest or pause point). Jesus' coming is also shown on the 7th Trumpet, and on the 7th Vial. Thus 777 represents the order of Jesus' future coming. 666 represents the order of Antichrist's coming prior to Jesus' coming.

The events in Revelation 14:1-5 is a future-forward view after Christ's future return.

The events in Revelation 14:6-13 is a view of during the "great tribulation" up to the time of end time Babylon's fall, and God's wrath upon those who took the mark of the beast.

The events of Revelation 14:14-20 is a view of Christ's future 2nd coming on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial.

Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to rightly divide The Word of God. So reading Revelation like some novel with thinking all the events happen in chronological order, is a mistake. We must understand the TYPE of events being described, and compare them with each other, and the Books of God's Old Testament prophets must also be included in the interpretation (i.e., the "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" phrase comes from Isaiah 21 about the fall of historical Babylon).

This is the gathering from heaven and earth (Church gathered from heaven as we are raptured before the great tribulation and 12 twelve are gathered from the earth at the 6th seal before the wrath of God) which becomes the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. We are at the marriage supper in Revelation 19.

You interjected all the above paragraph into the Bible; that is not written.

1. Jesus showed in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that He gathers His Church AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it.

2. Per Paul in 1 Thess.4:13-17, he showed Jesus brings His asleep resurrected saints with Him when He descends to EARTH, as Paul said they must first be resurrected. And the future resurrection only happens on the LAST DAY of this world, which means AFTER the tribulation. And then the saints still alive on earth are "caught up" to Jesus and His resurrected saints on the way to the Mount of Olives ON EARTH, per Zechariah 14. THAT... IS WHAT IS WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD.

 

[The Light]

Here we go again...

The 2nd part of the 6th SEAL of Rev.6 does show the event of Christ's 2nd and only coming.

I think you have missed the part where He came for the Church before the great tribulation. See Revelation 3,4,5.

I think you missed the part where Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. After Jesus comes at the 6th seal, which is the second coming, ALL RETURN TO HEAVEN for the marriage supper of the lamb. This why there is a great multitude in Revelation 7, some of who come out of great tribulation. That is why the great multitude is at the marriage supper in Revelation 19.

I think you missed the part where Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and Armageddon occurs. Then Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives which is the second advent.

Of course, you also missed the part where Jesus comes for the first fruits of the second harvest which are the 144,000 from 12 tribes. Seen here. The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth as the Lord has come for them.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 7th Seal is shown later as a 'selah' (rest or pause point). Jesus' coming is also shown on the 7th Trumpet, and on the 7th Vial. Thus 777 represents the order of Jesus' future coming. 666 represents the order of Antichrist's coming prior to Jesus' coming.

Houston, we have a problem. Jesus comes at the 6th seal so your 777 for Jesus and 666 for the Antichrist doesn't work out.

Don't you see the problems in your incorrect line of thinking? You were taught this by someone who failed Math. Totally Illogical.

The events in Revelation 14:1-5 is a future-forward view after Christ's future return.

The events of Revelation 14:1-5 occur BEFORE the 6th seal.

Who made up this future-forward view stuff. Were you taught this or did you come up with this on your own.

The events in Revelation 14:6-13 is a view of during the "great tribulation" up to the time of end time Babylon's fall, and God's wrath upon those who took the mark of the beast.

Rev 14:13 is the great tribulation. Jesus comes at the 6th seal and raptures the second harvest. It is those of 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured at the 6th seal. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits raptured earlier in Rev 14 that are from 12 tribes across the earth. When the dragon can't get to the woman, Israel, he goes after her seed.........12 tribes across the earth.

The events of Revelation 14:14-20 is a view of Christ's future 2nd coming on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial.

No, no, no. This is impossible. How can Christ come at the 6th seal, and it also be at the 7th trumpet and 7th vial. For that to happen the 7th seal would have to be open.

The person that this teaching has come from used a big sledgehammer to just beat things into place. They saw a similar event, Jesus coming at the 6th seal and also Jesus coming for Armageddon and think it's the same event. They took a sledge and forced it to fit.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest. All go to heaven for the marriage supper and remain in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God. After one year Jesus returns to the earth with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

These are separate comings.

Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to rightly divide The Word of God. So reading Revelation like some novel with thinking all the events happen in chronological order, is a mistake. We must understand the TYPE of events being described, and compare them with each other, and the Books of God's Old Testament prophets must also be included in the interpretation (i.e., the "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" phrase comes from Isaiah 21 about the fall of historical Babylon).

Put down the sledgehammer. The events the 6th seal do not occur at the 7th trump and 7th vial. You are correct that the events of the 7th trumpet and 7th vial occur in the same time frame, but those event have to occur after the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal contains the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath.

You interjected all the above paragraph into the Bible; that is not written.

1. Jesus showed in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that He gathers His Church AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it.

You are interjecting that the Church is gathered FROM THE EARTH at the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth at the gathering from heaven and earth.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. See Rev 5.

This gathering of the two folds, Gentiles and Jews occur before the wrath of God as believers are not appointed to wrath.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and the 7th seal is the wrath of God.

2. Per Paul in 1 Thess.4:13-17, he showed Jesus brings His asleep resurrected saints with Him when He descends to EARTH, as Paul said they must first be resurrected.

Jesus come first the those that sleep. The spring barley harvest. The alive remain.

When Jesus comes for the alive that remain in the summer wheat harvest He will bring the dead with Him.

This makes up the Church. The Church is raptured before the seals are opened.

When Jesus returns at the 6th seal, He will bring the Church with Him as they are gathered from heaven by the angels.

It is the seed of the woman that is gathered from the earth at the 6th seal. ALL RETURN TO HEAVEN for the marriage supper.

These two folds are joined together and are the great multitude seen in Rev 7 and 19.

And the future resurrection only happens on the LAST DAY of this world, which means AFTER the tribulation.

Correct. The end of the age, the last day, occurs when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. He comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation. He comes to remove believers from the earth because the wrath God is about to occur. The wrath of God lasts one year and then Jesus will return with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

The 7th seal contains the trumpets and vials of God's wrath.

There is a difference between the great tribulation and the wrath of God. The great tribulation is when believers are hunted down and killed. If these days are not cut short, there would be no flesh RATPURED ALIVE unto salvation. For the Elects sake the days are cut short.

After this rapture that occurs at the 6th seal, the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God is the Day of Vengeance. It will last ONE YEAR. Then Jesus returns for Armageddon which is the DAY OF THE LORD.

And then the saints still alive on earth are "caught up" to Jesus and His resurrected saints on the way to the Mount of Olives ON EARTH, per Zechariah 14. THAT... IS WHAT IS WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD.

You need to reread Zech 14. Zechariah 14 is describing the Day of the Lord, when the Lord comes with armies of heaven for Armageddon.

The Church is part of the armies of heaven along with the people of Daniel that are raptured from the earth at the 6th seal. These two folds are the great multitude and are in heaven for one year before we return for the Day of the Lord. After this, Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives, the second advent.

 

[PinSeeker]

That is not what was being discussed.

Not the only thing that was being discussed. But to that one particular thing, yes, it was.

William first stated the first quote below, and then asked to include "Jerusalem" in his translation he gave the meaning of Jerusalem...

Right, and he was incorrect in doing so. <smile> Actually, right, inasmuch as "city of peace," but wrong, it seems, at least, regarding what ~ who, actually ~ that city really is. <smile>

which then is a good translation of the passage and topic...

So the full translation of Luke 17:20 would be:

not comes the kingdom that of God with signs to be observed in the place where peace is come (in this world).

Disagree, of course. <smile>

“The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (Luke 17:20, ESV)

More could be said than what I am about to say, but basically... again, really... it's not coming in the sense of being future-only event... it's already here. And the strong insinuation is that it's not complete yet, either when Jesus said it or now, as the kingdom of God is in the midst of us now, but still being brought to completion. So again, inaugurated (begun, and now being "built") but not yet consummated (completed, or as Paul says in Romans 11, not yet brought to completion by God).

Which gets us back to what I alluded to just above... We, Scott... we are the City of God. Since the coming of Christ, whatever was spoken of regarding the physical Jerusalem belongs now to the spiritual Jerusalem. That spiritual Jerusalem is the church, the holy priesthood of believers from all nations... Jew and Gentile alike, all those called by God and thus born again of the Spirit. Like the city of old, the spiritual Jerusalem is adorned by the beautiful presence of God, protected and preserved by Him forever. For now, it is still being built ~ by God, Who is the Architect and Builder (Hebrews 11:10), and Jesus is with us ~ just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20 ~ by His Spirit, in the same way as we are "raised with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places," as Paul says in Ephesians 2.

Your understanding above contradicts Jesus saying, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Well, if and only if I understand what He says there in the wooden way you do, yes, buuuuuuuut... <smile> So it contradicts what you understand what Jesus to be saying there. Sure.

Indeed, the kingdom of God had come upon them--Jesus said that.

Good.

But regarding His return, He spoke of those of whom He was firstfruits as not being visible like the wind...

Hmmm... No... <chuckles> In John 3? Or anywhere, but John 3 in particular, as what He said to Nicodemus was what I was specifically and explicitly referring to? I mean surely you agree that Christ is the firstfruits of those who belong to Christ, those who are in Christ as a result of having been born again. And we will not be invisible... <chuckles> ...either here or in the New Heaven and New Earth.

...when He first came He was the Son of Man (not yet the firstfruits) and visible. Which then is confirmed in "there you may be also", as opposed to here in the world.

Hmmm... Ugh... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Scott.

 

[ScottA]

Not the only thing that was being discussed. But to that one particular thing, yes, it was.


Right, and he was incorrect in doing so. <smile> Actually, right, inasmuch as "city of peace," but wrong, it seems, at least, regarding what ~ who, actually ~ that city really is. <smile>

Disagree, of course. <smile>

“The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (Luke 17:20, ESV)

More could be said than what I am about to say, but basically... again, really... it's not coming in the sense of being future-only event... it's already here. And the strong insinuation is that it's not complete yet, either when Jesus said it or now, as the kingdom of God is in the midst of us now, but still being brought to completion. So again, inaugurated (begun, and now being "built") but not yet consummated (completed, or as Paul says in Romans 11, not yet brought to completion by God).

Which gets us back to what I alluded to just above... We, Scott... we are the City of God. Since the coming of Christ, whatever was spoken of regarding the physical Jerusalem belongs now to the spiritual Jerusalem. That spiritual Jerusalem is the church, the holy priesthood of believers from all nations... Jew and Gentile alike, all those called by God and thus born again of the Spirit. Like the city of old, the spiritual Jerusalem is adorned by the beautiful presence of God, protected and preserved by Him forever. For now, it is still being built ~ by God, Who is the Architect and Builder (Hebrews 11:10), and Jesus is with us ~ just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20 ~ by His Spirit, in the same way as we are "raised with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places," as Paul says in Ephesians 2.


Well, if and only if I understand what He says there in the wooden way you do, yes, buuuuuuuut... <smile> So it contradicts what you understand what Jesus to be saying there. Sure.


Good.

No need to disagree. William can speak for himself, but his bringing up Jerusalem was for the same reason you clarified the new Jerusalem as the church. Both are good and correct. That is why I asked him to elaborate.

 

[ScottA]

Hmmm... No... <chuckles> In John 3? Or anywhere, but John 3 in particular, as what He said to Nicodemus was what I was specifically and explicitly referring to? I mean surely you agree that Christ is the firstfruits of those who belong to Christ, those who are in Christ as a result of having been born again. And we will not be invisible... <chuckles> ...either here or in the New Heaven and New Earth.

Hmmm... Ugh... <smile>

The thread topic is the second coming, so the Nicodemus account was a reference to the heart of the matter, and the difference between the flesh which is born of flesh, and the spirit of God which is born of the spirit of God. The one is flesh, the other spirit. The first is natural, the last is spiritual. Likewise with the first Adam and the Last...and with Jesus...which is why all of those former examples were given--because they set precedence.

As for us being invisible--is God's spirit in YOU and "visible?" No...but invisible, and so it is "with all who are born of the Spirit."

But to understand the visible and invisible nature of the "firstfruits" and those of whom Jesus is firstfruits--yes, invisible is correct. However, that does not speak of what was and shall be again. If you recall what was in the beginning, Adam and Eve were naked (without skin) and could not see it as such until they sinned. At which time their vision was made manifest by God by form and image--as it is written, "the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

In those few, brief verses heavenly sight became worldly sight. But then the scriptures take us back to all who are born of the spirit not being visible but like the wind...and are only actually finished when "we shall see Him as He is" "for we shall be like Him." The invisible wind of God made visible, as God is spirit (and otherwise like the wind).

 

[Taken]

Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ….​

TO Earth.

Correct.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hmmmm. <chuckles> Your posts, many of them, and this one in particular, are... interesting, Scott. <smile>

The thread topic is the second coming, so the Nicodemus account was a reference to the heart of the matter,,,

Yeah, not sure what you mean by the uh, "Nicodemus account"... <smile> ...being "a reference to the heart of the matter." But I think you would agree that it was about what is required for one to be able to see the Kingdom of God... to be saved and Who is solely responsible for its taking place in... yes, the heart of the person. If so, then great... because Jesus was very clear of His context in John 3:3.

Incidentally, this is what many (maybe not you, if, in saying here "the heart of the matter," this is what you're alluding to) just can't bring themselves to understand in all the discussions on here about free will. Your bringing up the heart is very relevant to our discussion ~ with that I know you agree ~ and that's why I italicized 'heart' in the preceding parenthetical phrase and in this sentence, but this is an aside, really; I don't mean to get us into yet another discussion about free will and whether we have it or not and whether, uh... Yeah, I think you get me... <smile>

...the difference between the flesh which is born of flesh, and the spirit of God with is born of the spirit of God. The one is flesh, the other spirit. The first is natural, the last is spiritual.

Right, but there have been many... well, "conversations" in this forum about that and what it really means. Where you stand on it I'm not really sure, but, here again, I don't mean to get us into that, either. <smile>

Likewise with the first Adam and the Last...and with Jesus...

Hmmm... Not saying I completely disagree with this, but regarding the first Adam, you do believe he... and subsequently Eve... were created in an unfallen state, right? Or not? And that Jesus was always, even from His conception by the Holy Spirit and His birth of Mary, in an unfallen state, right? Yet again... these are yes or no questions... I don't mean to trigger discussion on this, either. <smile>

which is why all of those former examples were given--because they set precedence.

You know, maybe there's no difference, but rather than "set precedence," I would say something like, "indicative of greater/true realities of our material and spiritual state"... <smile>

As for us being invisible--is God's spirit in YOU and "visible?" No...but invisible, and so it is "with all who are born of the Spirit."

Sure. But our physical bodies are certainly visible (and tangible) ~ you agree ~ and so will it be in eternity, in the New Heaven and New Earth. For now, we are being conformed to the image of Christ, but then we will be finally and fully conformed to the image of Christ.

But to understand...

Yes, to understand... <smile>

the visible and invisible nature of the "firstfruits" and those of whom Jesus is firstfruits--yes, invisible is correct.

If we are understanding each other correctly, yes, that's correct. For us, both now, in part, and later in full.

However, that does not speak of what was and shall be again.

Uh-oh. <chuckles>

If you recall what was in the beginning, Adam and Eve were naked (without skin) and could not see it as such until they sinned. At which time their vision was made manifest by God by form and image--as it is written, "the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

In those few, brief verses heavenly sight became worldly sight.

Again, I don't completely disagree. <smile>

But then the scriptures take us back to all who are born of the spirit not being visible but like the wind...

Hm. You may disagree with me on this, but I say only the Holy Spirit is spoken of as being "like the wind," in Jesus's context in John 3:8...

As for us, yes, for example, Job says "the speech of a despairing man is wind," and that's true, but this is a different thing entirely.

So... and I don't mean to start us into yet something else, here, but... <chuckles> Regarding the wind Jesus speaks of, we may or may not be subject to this "wind..." It may or may not, um, "blow in our direction"... come to us...<smile>. So what He says is not... woodenly... the case; Jesus is using the wind metaphorically. This "wind" is not a person, of course; what Jesus is saying to Nicodemus really has to do with our lack of control over it in any way, even our initial lack of awareness of it., so what... or, well, Who, really... Who's "free will"... and action... our being born again of the Spirit... this is very, very important... depends on. In this way, it is intimately related to what John has just said in John 1:13 and what Paul says in Romans 9:16 and Ephesians 2:5,8 in particular. Actually, I should say that what John and Paul say in those verses is intimately related to what Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3. It is God's Word, after all... <chuckles>

and are only actually finished when "we shall see Him as He is" "for we shall be like Him." The invisible wind of God made visible, as God is spirit (and otherwise like the wind).

Again, I don't completely disagree. <smile> But again... and I'll say it this way this time... your head seems to be... "in the clouds," with which, actually, I think you will agree, but in a very different sense in which I mean it... <smile> Yes, we have been made alive and raised up with Christ in the heavenly places... by grace saved... as Paul says in Ephesians 2, but... <smile>

But to what you say here, I might say this invisible "wind" has long been visible, actually... in the Person of Jesus Christ ~ as the writer of Hebrews (1:1-2) says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son" ~ as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are, together One. And one day, we will all be perfectly one, just as They are One, and Christ will be in us and us in Him. This will come to be, as Jesus Himself prays in John 17.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.

 

[ScottA]

Yeah, not sure what you mean by the uh, "Nicodemus account"... <smile> ...being "a reference to the heart of the matter." But I think you would agree that it was about what is required for one to be able to see the Kingdom of God... to be saved and Who is solely responsible for its taking place in... yes, the heart of the person. If so, then great... because Jesus was very clear of His context in John 3:3.

Incidentally, this is what many (maybe not you, if, in saying here "the heart of the matter,"...

Hmmm... Not saying I completely disagree with this, but regarding the first Adam, you do believe he... and subsequently Eve... were created in an unfallen state, right? Or not? And that Jesus was always, even from His conception by the Holy Spirit and His birth of Mary, in an unfallen state, right? Yet again... these are yes or no questions... I don't mean to trigger discussion on this, either. <smile>

"The heart of the matter" is simply a figure of speech meaning the actual subject--which in this thread is: The second coming of Christ, and the reference to Nicodemus was because that is where Jesus broke down how His second coming and salvation works.

But yes and no, your understanding is correct in that those born again of the spirit of God (from the Nicodemus account) seeing the Kingdom of God; but no, the heart of the person is involved, but that is not why I used the figure of speech. To the contrary, The heart of the matter--that is, the very thing that defines the second coming of Christ and salvation--is the new creation of a new spirit body within a person, which is "Christ in you." This is salvation and the return of Christ--"the hope of glory"...fulfilled.

As for Adam and Eve in my former post, that too was just to point out another example and confirmation ("by the mouth of two or three") of what I have been saying about "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual"--the expressed model of salvation repeatedly given since the Beginning.

 

[ScottA]

Sure. But our physical bodies are certainly visible (and tangible) ~ you agree ~ and so will it be in eternity, in the New Heaven and New Earth. For now, we are being conformed to the image of Christ, but then we will be finally and fully conformed to the image of Christ.

This is one of the greatest errors in all of Christendom.

No. The end that all things are coming to--every purpose of God--is that He "is spirit" (not flesh, not physical), as are His children also to be, as One.

And it is only the lowly nature of the flesh and the thinking and teaching of men that would and does say otherwise, leading to the "lie" of all time...and swift destruction if you make it your god. It is a false gospel and teaching. It is for this very reason that Jesus more than threatened to "cut in two" those who try to carry any such thing with them into His Kingdom and eternal inheritance. If you are doing that now--you are in great danger.

 

[ScottA]

For us, both now, in part, and later in full.

That is a 2,000 year old reality, after which knowledge was to increase.

After all this time, all but the babes of this generation, were to have come to the understanding that although our eyes of flesh still only see in part (dimly), our new spiritual eyes--being spirit--were to take up spiritual sight, and more than walk in it, but also to see Jesus as being among us even "as He is"...that we might be "like Him." And when and if we have been trustworthy to have done so with a little--"then face to face." Not before.

So, if one wants to hang their hat (their life) on the flesh and physical rather than the spirit within--they are "cut in two" and cut out of the "half"...that might have been. Sadly, that is where most of Christendom is.

 

[PinSeeker]

"The heart of the matter" is simply a figure of speech...

Okay, fine...

The second coming of Christ, and the reference to Nicodemus was because that is where Jesus broke down how His second coming and salvation works.

<sigh> Jesus, in what He said to Nicodemus, was really only talking about how our individual salvation is initially... obtained... not His second coming.

...your understanding is correct,,,

I neither need nor care abot your affirmation of my correctness, Scott. Certainly, you may tell me whether you agree with me or not... or not; suit yourself on that. But by the same token, you don't need my affirmation of your correctness or otherwise, so will say, as I have, only if I agree or not.

... in that those born again of the spirit of God (from the Nicodemus account) seeing the Kingdom of God...

Right, yes...

...but no, the heart of the person is involved...

I was quite explicit and clear that the heart of the person is involved; if you think I said otherwise, I think you misunderstood my response.

, but that is not why I used the figure of speech.

Okay, so we can count it as just a further clarification, even an aside, that I made or stated and that you agree with. <smile> But yes, the heart is "involved"... in the way that God describes Himself through Ezekiel in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:25-27. Thus saith the Lord:

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules."​

To the contrary, The heart of the matter--that is, the very thing that defines the second coming of Christ and salvation--is the new creation of a new spirit body within a person, which is "Christ in you." This is salvation and the return of Christ--"the hope of glory"...fulfilled.

So not really to the contrary, but rather just to what you were talking about. And to this, I would, in a sense, step back, and say, there is a now-and-not-yet quality to this that you either a.) don't get, or b.) will not ~ for one reason or another, it matters not ~ acknowledge as true.

As for Adam and Eve in my former post, that too was just to point out another example and confirmation ("by the mouth of two or three") of what I have been saying about "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual"--the expressed model of salvation repeatedly given since the Beginning.

Hmmm. <smile> Not sure if this is implicitly answering my question to you or not, but no matter. Both Adam and Eve were created in an unfallen state. It didn't last long, but they were.

This is one of the greatest errors in all of Christendom.

Ah, "Christendom"... <chuckles> The Bible says what it says. If you believe we will not have physical bodies in eternity... Yeah, hmmm.

No. The end that all things are coming to--every purpose of God--is that He "is spirit" (not flesh, not physical), as are His children also to be, as One.

Yes. We will be just like Jesus. Which means much more than this, but Jesus was resurrected bodily, and so shall we be. And we can also add that since Adam and Eve were created with physical bodies and in an unfallen state, so will we be in eternity, in the New Heaven and New Earth. As God says in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new." So we all return to how we were in the beginning. It may sound a little funny, but He does not say, "I am creating new things." <smile> Nor does He say, "I am making all things different." <smile>

And it is only the lowly nature of the flesh and the thinking and teaching of men that would and does say otherwise...

And I would say the same to you, Scott, but of course otherwise to what I have said.

leading to the "lie" of all time...and swift destruction if you make it your god. It is a false gospel and teaching. It is for this very reason that Jesus more than threatened to "cut in two" those who try to carry any such thing with them into His Kingdom and eternal inheritance. If you are doing that now--you are in great danger.

Ah, you know, I would say that what any Christian believes, in this life, about what will be our actual state of existence in eternity has no bearing on whether or not we will or will not be with God in the New Heaven and New Earth. All it takes is... our having been born again of the Spirit, which is by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8; this is a past event for those of us who are in Christ Jesus), which is God's assurance of things hoped for, conviction worked in us by the Spirit (Who convicts, John 16:8) of things not seen (the very definition of faith, given to us in Hebrews 11:1). And this God-given faith only has to be... as a mustard seed (Matthew 17:20, Luke 17:6).

That is a 2,000 year old reality...

Well, just regarding its reality, sure, but as I have said, not, you know, as you have... This same disagreement has been a reality for, yes, two millenia... But I wouldn't disagree with at least some things you have said.

after which knowledge was to increase.

Ugh. <smile> Yeah, about that... <smile>

...if one wants to hang their hat (their life) on the flesh and physical rather than the spirit within...

Yeah, no Christian would ever actually do such... Because, we are ~ not "will be," but are ~ "a new creation... (t)he old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:17). We "have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator" (Paul again, Colossians 3:9-10). This Colossians passage also speaks to your er, "idea"... of this increase in knowledge... <smile> As Paul also says in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect..." We Christians are a work in progress in this life, so here again, the simultaneous now and not yet. But one great day... in full. Complete. God has begun His good work in us, and He will (not "might") bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). So... or, well, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:1-2).

--they are "cut in two" and cut out of the "half"...that might have been.

Hmmm... God's covenant with Abraham... Yeah, about that, in view of all that has been said, such a great conversation to be had... and we might actually agree about some things about it. But it would might be, oh, just as... torturous, really... as this conversation ~ well, exchange, anyway ~ has been... <smile>

Sadly, that is where most of Christendom is.

Ah, there it is again... "Christendom"... I mean I would call it at least somewhat important to understand correctly, but sad? No, not really; as I said, what any Christian believes, in this life, about what will be our actual state of existence in eternity has no bearing on whether or not we will or will not be with God in the New Heaven and New Earth.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.

 

[ScottA]

now-and-not-yet

That "now-and-not-yet" explanation is a completely inaccurate misunderstanding of how time actually works. That is not the mind of Christ, but the thinking of men. Which is not debatable, except among men.