Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[GRACE ambassador]

The pre-trib rapture theory is just nothing but a collection of random thoughts that come from people's imaginations.

Getting quite wearisome from these kind of accusations [ Wait! Isn't that against CB forum rules? ], but,
as in the wise words of precious friend 70-year-old Charlie24:

"Well, it's not easily explained, it covers much Scripture, many things to understand.":

It is God's Sound Doctrine from a comprehensive study of All Of God's Related Scriptures, Rightly
Divided, and "Profitable For Doctrine", according to:

A) Bible study Rules, and:

B) [ prayerful / Careful 18-month study ] Outline:

(1) am I using The Right Bible?
(2) am I obeying God's Excellent "study" Rules!?*

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...*
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided = God's Timelines?
(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) Great Tribulation? Or tribulations/Greate GRACE Departure!
(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?
(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, for "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"
(10) "Day Of CHRIST!"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)​

- "The Day Of The LORD"?​

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Return "Without Warning!"?

(13)The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of GRACE!!"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!!* vs U-turn (theology?)

- Back To earth?​

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?
(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

C) Conclusion (Part 17): God's Great GRACE Departure!

Q: One verse makes a Sound doctrine?:

Some Opponents have not been very interested in discussing these Important things, usually
only blasting out their one favorite cherry-picked "post-trib" verse in Matthew, eh?

However, if one can "prayerfully / Carefully" 'debunk' All Of These Related Scriptures "Decently and
In Order", Only Then can pre-trib Grace believers change our humble minds over to agree with
our opponents, ok?

Amen.

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Just [ imagine? ], or Better Yet: prayerfully / Carefully study All Scripture, Rightly Divided?:

​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wow. Exactly my point. The trump of God is the voice of God. We find the trump of God in 1 Thes 4 which is about the rapture of the Church.

The trump of God has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the last trump.

All you do is make baseless claims. There is no reason whatsoever for you to come to that conclusion. There is only one trumpet that will sound after Christ descends for the one and only time in the future and it's referred to in various ways. The trump of God. The last trumpet. The seventh trumpet. It's all the same trumpet.

The last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets and is found in 1 Corinthians 15. The last trump also has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

Another baseless claim. That's all you have. I can't take you seriously even a tiny bit.

It is blown at the 6th seal and is the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the wrath of God which occurs immediately after the great tribulation.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


It appears that you do not know the difference between the trump of God which is the voice of God and the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

It appears that you just make things up. The trump of God is also referred to as the voice of the archangel. You conveniently left that out.

No. Of course not. The Church is raptured to heaven at the trump of God, 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Those raptured in 1 Corinthians 15 are raptured at the 6th seal prior to the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. This is talking about the people of Daniel who go through the great tribulation.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.




The Church is already in heaven before the great tribulation. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel will have its blindness removed. God turns His attention to the people of Daniel.

No evidence. LOL. The Church is in heaven as kings and priests before the seals are opened. Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There's lots of evidence.

You lack understanding. There are two folds that become one fold which is the great multitude. The first fold is the Church and second fold is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman.

You have literally zero discernment about end times doctrine. Not a little bit. Zero. And that results in things like believing in two raptures and in not recognizing that the two folds Jesus talked about were the first Jewish fold of believers that He had at the time He talked about that and then the other fold of Gentile believers that would be joined together with the first fold as one flock, which is exactly what happened. The two folds represent Jew and Gentile believers joined together as one flock under Christ. Paul also referred to us as "one new man" and "one body". For any Christian to not understand things like this is rather disturbing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Getting quite wearisome from these kind of accusations [ Wait! Isn't that against CB forum rules? ],

It's against the rules to make comments about a doctrine? I don't think so. I didn't say anything personal about any person.

but,
as in the wise words of precious friend 70-year-old Charlie24:

"Well, it's not easily explained, it covers much Scripture, many things to understand.":

It is God's Sound Doctrine from a comprehensive study of All Of God's Related Scriptures, Rightly
Divided, and "Profitable For Doctrine", according to:

A) Bible study Rules, and:

B) [ prayerful / Careful 18-month study ] Outline:

(1) am I using The Right Bible?
(2) am I obeying God's Excellent "study" Rules!?*

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...*
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided = God's Timelines?
(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) Great Tribulation? Or tribulations/Greate GRACE Departure!
(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For HIS Body!?
(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, for "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"
(10) "Day Of CHRIST!"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)

- "The Day Of The LORD"?​

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Return "Without Warning!"?

(13)The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of GRACE!!"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!!* vs U-turn (theology?)

- Back To earth?​

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?
(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

C) Conclusion (Part 17): God's Great GRACE Departure!

Q: One verse makes a Sound doctrine?:

Some Opponents have not been very interested in discussing these Important things, usually
only blasting out their one favorite cherry-picked "post-trib" verse in Matthew, eh?

However, if one can "prayerfully / Carefully" 'debunk' All Of These Related Scriptures "Decently and
In Order", Only Then can pre-trib Grace believers change our humble minds over to agree with
our opponents, ok?

Amen.

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Just [ imagine? ], or Better Yet: prayerfully / Carefully study All Scripture, Rightly Divided?:

View attachment 90503

You appear to be unable to present your view in a clear way. That's all as clear as mud as far as I'm concerned. It does not appear that you know how to exegete scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

Actually... <chuckles> This is not necessarily meant specifically for you, Scott, but...

Thanks for the clarification!

But since you also commented, to finish the complete messaged as returning to "Jerusalem"-- What is the original meaning of "Jerusalem", and what would your translation look like with the meaning of Jerusalem included in your explanation?

Yes, Jesus says, in Luke 17:20, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed"... and we can understand at least two things in that:

• It is very closely related, intimately, really, to what He says to Nicodemus in John 3..."...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
• And He is saying there in Luke 17:20 ~ yet again, because by that point He had said as much several times ~ and again in the same breath, in the very next verse, Luke 17:21, "...for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you." That word 'for' is important... it's equivalent to 'because' or 'therefore,' so it further clarifies what has just been said previously. So, it can't be observed for the first time... as if at any time going forward it was not there already. Even then, Jesus was saying God's Kingdom was already there. This is the now-and-not-yet... in this case concerning the Kingdom of God... now here, so already inaugurated/begun... but not yet consummated, or brought to completion, so not yet complete. And this is still true... but not for much longer... <smile> Jesus will return. Soon. <smile> Well, so does 'soon' mean tomorrow, or in the next few weeks or years? Um, maybe... <smile> ...but God's time is not our time. To God, a thousand years is as a day, and a day a thousand years... <smile> But no matter how much of our time elapses, God does not tarry. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[The Light]

All you do is make baseless claims. There is no reason whatsoever for you to come to that conclusion. There is only one trumpet that will sound after Christ descends for the one and only time in the future and it's referred to in various ways. The trump of God. The last trumpet. The seventh trumpet. It's all the same trumpet.

It seems you unable to understand the difference between the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels. Two different events.

Another baseless claim. That's all you have. I can't take you seriously even a tiny bit.

You seem unable to understand the difference between the trump of God, which is the voice of God and the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Ask a rabi what the last trump is...........any rabbi.

It appears that you just make things up. The trump of God is also referred to as the voice of the archangel. You conveniently left that out.

It appears that you think that the voice of an archangel is the same as the voice of God.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You have literally zero discernment about end times doctrine. Not a little bit. Zero. And that results in things like believing in two raptures and in not recognizing that the two folds Jesus talked about were the first Jewish fold of believers that He had at the time He talked about that and then the other fold of Gentile believers that would be joined together with the first fold as one flock, which is exactly what happened. The two folds represent Jew and Gentile believers joined together as one flock under Christ. Paul also referred to us as "one new man" and "one body". For any Christian to not understand things like this is rather disturbing.

The two flocks that become one flock are made up of the Gentiles, the first flock, and the Jews, the second flock. We can easily prove that.

Proof 1

The Gentiles are the first fold because we know Jesus and Jesus knows us. The Jews do not know Jesus

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Jews reject Jesus and will be the second fold.

Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Proof 2

The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. However, they served Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the first harvest as the Jews are found as grapes in the wilderness........wild grapes.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in with the rapture of the Church before the great tribulation, there are 144,000 first fruits. The fathers of Israel were no longer seen as 1st fruits, so the 144,000 become first fruits of the second harvest or second time of the fig tree.

The fig tree has two harvests, there will be two raptures. If you don't understand these things, I can't help that.

 

[ScottA]

Actually... <chuckles> This is not necessarily meant specifically for you, Scott, but...


Yes, Jesus says, in Luke 17:20, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed"... and we can understand at least two things in that:

• It is very closely related, intimately, really, to what He says to Nicodemus in John 3..."...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
• And He is saying there in Luke 17:20 ~ yet again, because by that point He had said as much several times ~ and again in the same breath, in the very next verse, Luke 17:21, "...for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you." That word 'for' is important... it's equivalent to 'because' or 'therefore,' so it further clarifies what has just been said previously. So, it can't be observed for the first time... as if at any time going forward it was not there already. Even then, Jesus was saying God's Kingdom was already there. This is the now-and-not-yet... in this case concerning the Kingdom of God... now here, so already inaugurated/begun... but not yet consummated, or brought to completion, so not yet complete. And this is still true... but not for much longer... <smile> Jesus will return. Soon. <smile> Well, so does 'soon' mean tomorrow, or in the next few weeks or years? Um, maybe... <smile> ...but God's time is not our time. To God, a thousand years is as a day, and a day a thousand years... <smile> But no matter how much of our time elapses, God does not tarry. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

That is not what was being discussed. William first stated the first quote below, and then asked to include "Jerusalem" in his translation he gave the meaning of Jerusalem...which then is a good translation of the passage and topic:

Luke 17:20 says:
ουκ ερχεται η βασιλεια του θεου μετα παρατηρησεως
not comes the kingdom that of God with signs to be observed

The return of Jesus will be sudden and unexpected (Revelation 19:11-21).
The return is to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem
יךושלים
ירו yerou = city
שלים shalom = peace
City of Peace

"At that time Jerusalem will be known as the throne of the Lord" (Jeremiah 3:17)

So the full translation of Luke 17:20 would be:

not comes the kingdom that of God with signs to be observed in the place where peace is come (in this world).

 

[ScottA]

Actually... <chuckles> This is not necessarily meant specifically for you, Scott, but...


Yes, Jesus says, in Luke 17:20, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed"... and we can understand at least two things in that:

• It is very closely related, intimately, really, to what He says to Nicodemus in John 3..."...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
• And He is saying there in Luke 17:20 ~ yet again, because by that point He had said as much several times ~ and again in the same breath, in the very next verse, Luke 17:21, "...for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you." That word 'for' is important... it's equivalent to 'because' or 'therefore,' so it further clarifies what has just been said previously. So, it can't be observed for the first time... as if at any time going forward it was not there already. Even then, Jesus was saying God's Kingdom was already there. This is the now-and-not-yet... in this case concerning the Kingdom of God... now here, so already inaugurated/begun... but not yet consummated, or brought to completion, so not yet complete. And this is still true... but not for much longer... <smile> Jesus will return. Soon. <smile> Well, so does 'soon' mean tomorrow, or in the next few weeks or years? Um, maybe... <smile> ...but God's time is not our time. To God, a thousand years is as a day, and a day a thousand years... <smile> But no matter how much of our time elapses, God does not tarry. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

Your understanding above contradicts Jesus saying, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Indeed, the kingdom of God had come upon them--Jesus said that.

But regarding His return, He spoke of those of whom He was firstfruits as not being visible like the wind...which then applies to His return, because when He first came He was the Son of Man (not yet the firstfruits) and visible. Which then is confirmed in "there you may be also", as opposed to here in the world.