Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Eternally Grateful]

Where are you getting the idea that we can never stop sinning or that it's a good thing to be in a state of sin and be aware of it?

if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and there i no truth in us.

why would we want to deceive ourselves and say I am not currently sinning.. in one way or another?

I was initially taught the same thing. That we simply sin constantly and there's no escaping it. But what is sin? In 1 John, it says sin is transgression of the law. It's specific. Its not as if you sinned the moment you woke up this morning or as you read this message.

There are so many things we do in our humanity that simply aren't sin. There's so much false theology that makes sin a default state that it defeats the hope of overcoming sin ever. I don't buy into it anymore but I had to start reading Scripture like a child again.

2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Colossians 1:28
King James Version
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

2 Corinthians 13:11
King James Version
11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

the bible also says if I know to do good and do not do it. to me it is sin.

Jesus went deeper thean the law

they law says this, But I tell you that.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

well now I think things make alot of sense..

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Personally, I've never heard a pastor use the term "sinless perfection." But whenever I have taught that Jesus said He takes away our sin, I get WARNINGS that I'm teaching "sinless perfection." Which denominations teach against sinless perfection? I know one pastor who does, but are there more? I have some of that pastors books for research on what not to teach, and I swear when I open them, demons seem to be flying off the pages. There are many forum members who also teach against "sinless perfection." Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Also, in Revelation 22:11 look to see which category you are in, because there is a popular teaching about the body that says we will not stop sinning until after we die and receive our new bodies." Not according to this: "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Therefore, when you die, nothing changes. That doctrine about freedom from sin only when we receive new bodies is a doctrine of demons, because demons want you to keep sinning so you can receive the same punishment as they will be getting. They must like the company.

Both Paul and Peter taught we are dead to sin. Romans 6:5-7, 22; 1 Peter 2:24. John taught we cannot sin, 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18. John has also been misquoted with 1 John 1:8 which contradicts 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9 that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Those who want to justify their sin twist these scriptures backwards and believe 1 John 1:8 over 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9. Look at 1 John 2:4 if you want to know what lie 1 John 1:8 is really saying, 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 1 is written with a Semitic writing style. Verse 5 through 10 is a contrast between Light vs. Darkness. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are all unsaved darkness. 1 John 1:9 is how to become a born again Christian ONCE, not over and over as you are a slave to sin. It is the same as Peter's Acts 2:38 "REPENT, ... and you will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I teach that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

What Jesus does as the Author of our faith is He takes away the worst type of sin (sins unto death) out of our sin nature, leaving it now clean of evil desires, John 15:3. And He does this instantaneously when He baptizes us with fire according to John the Baptist. This sinless state is called righteousness and is what 1 John 3 is all about.

What Jesus does as the Finisher of our faith takes a long time, not instantaneously. At the end of this process is when His work is complete, Phil. 1:6, and we are then perfect, the other name for holy. The process has to do with maturing each fruit of the Spirit and is found in 2 Peter 1:5-11. "5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To me "never stumble" means perfection, but it is a long time coming from when we were first made sinless of sins unto death. This is why I never put sinless and perfection together as "sinless perfection." On the narrow path toward salvation, sinlessness is at the beginning and perfection is at the end. Then and only then is there "sinless perfection" when the two are complete. Committing sins due to immature fruit are not sins unto death, but sins not unto death; however, maturing fruit is necessary for salvation. Otherwise, those branches that do not bear fruit are cast into the fire. John 15:1-4, “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

See also this common passage with the first two verses before it added for context and clarity:

Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Because you ignore teh clear teachings of Scripture.

without going into reams of words here they are:

1. when one is svaed/born again/ given eternal life, they are a made a new creature! That creation is an eternal child of God and when we walk in that we can never sin.

2. God removed the penalty of our sin, but did not remove our sin nature. Paul made that absolutely clear! When we walk in the flesh (our old sin nature) we cannot please god. that is why God gave us 1 Joun 1:9 so we can be forgiven in our wal;k.

There is a massive difference between our position in christ and our experience.

Positionally we are perfect, seated in heavenly places, dead in christ etc.etc.

Experientially, we are still growing in grace, are still being sanctified and still be transformed by the renewing of our ominds.

The problem with people never sinning again (though I wish i could) is that when one is saved- they know very little and will live in many sins simply because God has not taught them those things are sin. Even afterwards we get tempted, fall and confess and are restored! Gods love goes far deeper than the crowd who believes we must not sin again.

 

[ProDeo]

Because you ignore teh clear teachings of Scripture.

without going into reams of words here they are:

1. when one is svaed/born again/ given eternal life, they are a made a new creature! That creation is an eternal child of God and when we walk in that we can never sin.

2. God removed the penalty of our sin, but did not remove our sin nature. Paul made that absolutely clear! When we walk in the flesh (our old sin nature) we cannot please god. that is why God gave us 1 Joun 1:9 so we can be forgiven in our wal;k.

There is a massive difference between our position in christ and our experience.

Positionally we are perfect, seated in heavenly places, dead in christ etc.etc.

Experientially, we are still growing in grace, are still being sanctified and still be transformed by the renewing of our ominds.

The problem with people never sinning again (though I wish i could) is that when one is saved- they know very little and will live in many sins simply because God has not taught them those things are sin. Even afterwards we get tempted, fall and confess and are restored! Gods love goes far deeper than the crowd who believes we must not sin again.

Amen.

Filipp 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Filipp 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Filipp 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Filipp 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Filipp 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

If Paul does not call himself perfect....... but then again he has been in his Romans 7 experience and knows all about his flesh.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The idea alone I could be perfect like Jesus is insane to me and in the hypothetical case it is possible in this life saying so would be the ultimate form of pride. That's just me, how I feel about the issue, I could be wrong, would not be the first time and so it is not meant as judgement of people who think different.

Like Paul I am not already perfect, but I strive for it.

 

[shepherdsword]

interesting

James said if I even stumble and in doing so break one command on accident, I am guilty of all

My scripture says the wage of sin is death, it does not say the wages of these sins are death, but these others are ok..

Looks like two levels of sin here:

1 Jn 5:16-17
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Looks like two levels of sin here:

1 Jn 5:16-17
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

I would not call this two levels of sin.

if I get drunk (a sin) and get behind the wheel to drive home (a sin) and make it home alive, I have commited a sin not unto death

If I do the same 2 sins, and get killed on the way home. I have committed a sin unto death.

edited.

If my friends sees me get behind the wheel and I do not die. He has seen me commit a sin not leading to death

If he sees me get in the car and I die. He has seen me commit a sin leading to death

 

[shepherdsword]

I would not call this two levels of sin.

if I get drunk (a sin) and get behind the wheel to drive home (a sin) and make it home alive, I have commited a sin not unto death

If I do the same 2 sins, and get killed on the way home. I have committed a sin unto death.

edited.

If my friends sees me get behind the wheel and I do not die. He has seen me commit a sin not leading to death

If he sees me get in the car and I die. He has seen me commit a sin leading to death

It's clearly two levels.

 

[ScottA]

I've now responded to two of your posts where you give NO scripture you base your beliefs on. Are there any?

I have not been speaking of my beliefs, nor at all. What I have been speaking is not mine, but His' who sent me. This is His established method, which you would have done better to expect than to challenge with your own understanding.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

but can we achieve this?

remember, John says if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us.

so if it can be achieved, why would john say if even himself said he has achieved it he is decieved?

Yes, because it doesn't have anything to do with what we do. Hebrews 12:2 shows us that it is Jesus who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. All we must do is repent of our weakness to be righteous ourselves. Many interpret repentance as "us turning away from sin." But in reality, once we realize that we are too weak to turn away from sin forever, then we can truly repent of our evil weaknesses. THEN Jesus takes away all desire to break a commandment of God from our sin nature, making it clean. John 15:3, "you are clean." Then as the Finisher of our faith, as we abide in Jesus, He starts the long process of maturing each and every fruit of the Spirit. We find this in 2 Peter 1:5-11. In verse 10 we see that at the end of this process we will NEVER STUMBLE. So, again, the answer to your question is most definitely. I remember when Jesus removed lawless sin out of me when I was born again and it felt like a heaviness lifting out of my body. It is real. All desire to break God's laws were suddenly gone and didn't return.

1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are all verses of darkness. 1 John 1:5, 7 and 9 are verses of light. You have 1 John 1:8 contradicting 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." From verse 5 through 10, every other verse is either light, then dark. The dark verses are before Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTOUSNESS. So, how can saying you don't sin be a lie, when Jesus takes away our sin from our sin nature. But, before that, if you said you were born without sin like Jesus in verse 10, that WOULD be a lie. Get it?

Many denominations interpret the Bible with a Western mindset, but the Apostles wrote in an Eastern writing style using personal pronouns. Paul's use of "I" in Romans 7 and John's use of "we" in 1 John 1 has messed with so many minds that focus on the pronouns instead of the context.

Always check the total context.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I have not been speaking of my beliefs, nor at all. What I have been speaking is not mine, but His' who sent me. This is His established method, which you would have done better to expect than to challenge with your own understanding.

If I read you right, you were saying when Paul uses the word "flesh" he is only speaking of our body. That is not true. The flesh was our carnal sin nature that has been taken away by Jesus. Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, (past tense) the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Also you see the difference of before Christ and after Christ in Romans 8:8-9 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (again, the flesh is not our body.)

 

[ProDeo]

Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus

What does it mean?

Answer is in the previous verses.

Matt 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Context shows that following Jesus means be ready to die for Jesus if the situation requires so. And don't deny Christ like Peter when his life was in danger.

Who of you have calculated the costs, who of you knows himself well enough to say, I will die for Jesus.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's clearly two levels.

guess if you need it to be to support an assumption

But it was the same sin. each person committed the same sin of getting drunk, then driving drunk

one died. the other did not. that is not two levels. that two end results of sin which a brother or sister has committed.

Its not two levels. The one was given grace by God and did not die because of their sin.

the one who sees this should intervene and try to help the brother. because the next time he may not be so lucky

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, because it doesn't have anything to do with what we do. Hebrews 12:2 shows us that it is Jesus who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. All we must do is repent of our weakness to be righteous ourselves. Many interpret repentance as "us turning away from sin." But in reality, once we realize that we are too weak to turn away from sin forever, then we can truly repent of our evil weaknesses. THEN Jesus takes away all desire to break a commandment of God from our sin nature, making it clean. John 15:3, "you are clean." Then as the Finisher of our faith, as we abide in Jesus, He starts the long process of maturing each and every fruit of the Spirit. We find this in 2 Peter 1:5-11. In verse 10 we see that at the end of this process we will NEVER STUMBLE. So, again, the answer to your question is most definitely. I remember when Jesus removed lawless sin out of me when I was born again and it felt like a heaviness lifting out of my body. It is real. All desire to break God's laws were suddenly gone and didn't return.

1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are all verses of darkness. 1 John 1:5, 7 and 9 are verses of light. You have 1 John 1:8 contradicting 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." From verse 5 through 10, every other verse is either light, then dark. The dark verses are before Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTOUSNESS. So, how can saying you don't sin be a lie, when Jesus takes away our sin from our sin nature. But, before that, if you said you were born without sin like Jesus in verse 10, that WOULD be a lie. Get it?

Many denominations interpret the Bible with a Western mindset, but the Apostles wrote in an Eastern writing style using personal pronouns. Paul's use of "I" in Romans 7 and John's use of "we" in 1 John 1 has messed with so many minds that focus on the pronouns instead of the context.

Always check the total context.

if you think you have reached sinless perfection in this lifetime

John says your are decieved
You have stunted your growth. because when you do sin (and you will) you will never admit you have sinned.. and continue in it.

 

[ProDeo]

guess if you need it to be to support an assumption

But it was the same sin. each person committed the same sin of getting drunk, then driving drunk

one died. the other did not. that is not two levels. that two end results of sin which a brother or sister has committed.

Its not two levels. The one was given grace by God and did not die because of their sin.

the one who sees this should intervene and try to help the brother. because the next time he may not be so lucky

Although John does not say what sin-unto-death means by giving an example but I am inclined to believe he meant spiritual / eternal death.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Although John does not say what sin-unto-death means by giving an example but I am inclined to believe he meant spiritual / eternal death.

I used to think this also. Then I got to think when I was studying one day

1. I can not see a person die spiritually.
2. A person made alive by God can not make themselves Dead again.
3. I can see a person die physically.

so spiritual death can not be context of what is spoken of.

"if you see a brother commiting a sin not unto death"

in my example I saw two brothers commit the same sins

I saw one who committed a sin that did not lead to death

I saw the other commit the same sin, that lead to death

it fits.

 

[rwb]

I would not call this two levels of sin.

if I get drunk (a sin) and get behind the wheel to drive home (a sin) and make it home alive, I have commited a sin not unto death

If I do the same 2 sins, and get killed on the way home. I have committed a sin unto death.

edited.

If my friends sees me get behind the wheel and I do not die. He has seen me commit a sin not leading to death

If he sees me get in the car and I die. He has seen me commit a sin leading to death

That's interesting! I never really thought of the sin unto death in this way. I was thinking the only sin unto death eternally, not physically, which is sin (blasphemy) against the Holy Spirit. But as I think about it how would I know if a person committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that I should not pray for them? Makes sense, thanks.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's interesting! I never really thought of the sin unto death in this way. I was thinking the only sin unto death eternally, not physically, which is sin (blasphemy) against the Holy Spirit. But as I think about it how would I know if a person committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that I should not pray for them? Makes sense, thanks.

this is exactly what got me to thinking.. and questioning what I believed to be true

 

[CrowCross]

That is a poor analogy.

You didn't even address my "analogy".

Christians are forgiven of all of their sins...all of them....yet still have a sin nature.
Does this mean we should continue to sin? No. As christians should we strive not to sin? yes.

To the contrary, Christians (followers of Christ) are given an invitation to live forever, passing from these bodies of flesh to the eternal spirit bodies of God through Christ, by new birth; that though the flesh dies, we shall surely live.

Christians will receive a glorified body at the resurrection/rapture event of 1 Thes 4. and 1 Cor 15.
Just as Christ Jesus has a physical body so shall His bride....Your post didn't address what you called "my analogy".

Therefore, a Christian is told to listen for Christ knocking (within) and to open to Him and let Him in, as that is when and how He gives us that new body and spirit (within).

Really????

In other words, it is not a transformation as we imagine transformation, but is a completely new creation requiring us to move from the one to the other making the driving force within us the spirit of God rather than the natural spirit that strictly resides within the flesh that dies with the flesh.

We are given the Holy Spirit as we are born again.

 

[rwb]

this is exactly what got me to thinking.. and questioning what I believed to be true

Yes, you've gotten me thinking more about this also! Again, thank you!

 

[Episkopos]

if you think you have reached sinless perfection in this lifetime

John says your are decieved
You have stunted your growth. because when you do sin (and you will) you will never admit you have sinned.. and continue in it.

The bible says...all have sinned (past tense). But modern (un)believers ignore all the other verses that talk about how evil ONGOING sin is.

So then it's on the (un)believers to find a verse that says...ALL WILL SIN. (future tense). It doesn't exist. So that should silence the unbelief. But it doesn't because of dishonesty...stacking up even more sins on each other making a person worse and worse in God's eyes. Adding sin to sin as Isaiah says.
The very beginning of an attitude that God accepts is honesty.

But that kind of honesty is lacking in (un)believers...because it exposes the unbelief held by people who want to be justified by Christ IN their sins.