Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

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ScottA

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You can't hold your own thoughts as from God, but find the scriptures that verify those thoughts. I also am taught by God. But what I learn is always verified by His written word.
Indeed, everything [actually] from God is verifiable in the scriptures. However, all who are sent verify His word given to them by the scriptures. To the contrary, we either "hear what the Spirit says", or not.

Now, having said that--I know that it is helpful to have chapter and verse...and I do often include them and\or the scriptures in quotes. But I do not withhold anything to do so--for some things are given again not as first given and quotable. Many repeated messages from God are a completely different approach or means. Each generation has the same matters set before them, in as many ways as there are people. God meets us where we are. Even so, I like the quotes too, and therefore often include them.
 

Episkopos

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The sin nature is crucified, but then resurrected. It is clean. And I have experienced the cross to that depth. Have you?
What do you mean by "is". Are you talking "positionally" or theoretically? The cross takes the outer man out of the way.

I have been cut in the heart so that I walked like a dead man for a week or so. It was the same experience as a certain Theresa of Avila.

I heard a voice from above that said "the countenance of God is passing over you". And then a hand held me down and a knife cut into my heart. Before that I wept cried out for 3 times...not knowing why. Very strange...but powerful.

But I also know the detached walk whereby I'm part way outside myself IF I try to understand what's going on. Otherwise I was in the inner man very centered and empowered. It's only when I tried to understand what was happening that I saw myself from outside.

Too many experiences to recount.
 

Nathaniel

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For a Christian...that is indeed true. As a christian I have been washed by the blood of Christ, nailed all of my sins to the cross with Him....That is, all of my sins past, present and future have been imputed to Christ Jesus and His righteousness has been imputed to me.
That sounds a lot like a Gospel Word.
Let's hope it's well received.
Praise the Lord.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I should have clarified it as eternal death, not physically yet.
you still can not see it.

The passage says If you see it.. It is something that you can visually see
It is true that when we become born again we go from eternal death to eternal life. But if then you apostatize and willfully fall away from Christ, you go back to eternal death and there is no more repentance available. That is not talking about people that are just church goers for years, and fall away, then come back, then fall away, then finally come to Christ seriously and finally become born again. Those first multiple repentances don't count because they were never born again of the Spirit. I'm afraid there are thousands of fake Christians out there that are Christians in name only, but are not born again of the Spirit.
This is not what the passage says, and this is not true. A child of God cannot live in sin. hence they can not fall away. If you fall away from grace you never truely recieved it.
 

Eternally Grateful

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James was comparing the Old Covenant law of commandments, which is all you are seeing. Read verse 12. That is the only one that is New Covenant.

"12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty." That is liberty from the desire to sin when we were born again of the Spirit and our desires from our sin nature have been cleansed, INCLUDING the nature. It is clean. Then you can walk in the Spirit, and the only sins you will commit are unintentional and just from immature fruit. But it is not us that do the maturing. That is Jesus as the Finisher of our faith. As you abide in Jesus you will discover changes in your own reactions to insults. You won't react the same way you did before, but you didn't have to strive to achieve that maturity. Jesus did it.

Immature fruit sins are NOT UNTO DEATH. Romans 6 is only about sins unto death (major mortal sins of the flesh, and they are sins unto death). To discern the difference, learn the two types of sin in the eyes of God, not the false doctrine of "sin is sin."

The most important things we have to do is first confess our weaknesses to change ourselves to become born again of the Spirit. And then to continually ABIDE IN JESUS. One thing I find that I desire is studying the Bible. I've been reading the New Testament through every night until I get sleepy. I'll add some Old Testament too from time to time. This helps keep your mind and heart on Jesus. And He will bless you with truth.
James made a point,

Under the law if you even by mistake break a command your guilty of the law

so lets not water down the law and say I am still saved as long as i do not purposefully sin, if i do not do it on purpose.

sin is sin is sin, the wage of sin is death

if you do not recieve the gift of God which is eternal life. you will continue in the wage of sin because you have rejected him
 

Eternally Grateful

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"Biological superman"? Who is talking about superman.

This is what God said after the Flood:

Gen. 8:21 And Jehovah began to smell a pleasing aroma. So Jehovah said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground on man’s account, for the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again will I strike down every living thing as I have done.

Jesus said:

Matt. 28:18 ... “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Did you read anything in my post? You quote it, yet you say nothing about it. You talk about some "Superman" figure as if what the Bible says regarding salvation and health for all nations were science fiction. Your reaction to my post is strange.
thats what they do. they deflect to try to make you look bad. so people cannot see their pharisee gospel of works.
 

Eternally Grateful

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The internet is full of fantasies and speculations not based on accurate biblical knowledge... People stir up empty arguments that help no one practice anything good related to Jesus Christ or look forward to anything real that God has promised.

No one can live forever on their own, because no one can cleanse themselves of sin by their own efforts. People do not stop getting sick, aging, and dying just because they wish it so; what kind of fantasy is that?

To know the truth about the human condition, one need only observe reality with one's own eyes: what real-life Christian ever attained "sinless perfection"? Do you know of any? Did they not age or die? Do they never get sick?
sadly, people cannot get past their own pride and patting themselves on the back. and think God will do the same to them because they are so good.

They reject the thought that if god gave them what they deserve. it would be hill.. all of us deserve hell..
 

Eternally Grateful

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I think a lot of churches are against any teaching on sinless perfection because they prefer to get as many tithing members committed as possible who don't come close to that.

I'm no authority on the topic but I think the issue of sin is always about  today and right now. If we say sincerely in our heart that we will serve God now without the intention of sinning again, I think that is the key. I don't worry about what Ill do the rest of my life. I worry about today. If I sin, I repent and get back up and go back to serving God without intending to sin again. But the goal is to not sin and go on to perfection.

One more thing I've noticed. We tend to make the goal post super high so there's no practical way to reach it.
I would change this from "if I sin" to "when I sin"

and even then, I would not focus on this, focus on living others. seeking after the things of the spiriit. and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This means we look outward not inward.

it is when we look inward that we sin, because we are looking at self. not serving and loving others. which is what sin really is.

Sin will be exposed to you. God will show it to you. then you can confess and seek guidance.

but we should focus outward not inward
 

Eternally Grateful

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The sin nature is crucified, but then resurrected. It is clean. And I have experienced the cross to that depth. Have you?
the sin nature is crucified, but we still have the flesh.

it is the lfesh that causes us to sin. while it is no longer natural for us to sin, we stil war with the flesh.

thats why we will never be sinless in this lifetime. Until the flesh is gone.. when we are ressurected
 

Episkopos

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1. when one is svaed/born again/ given eternal life, they are a made a new creature! That creation is an eternal child of God and when we walk in that we can never sin.

2. God removed the penalty of our sin, but did not remove our sin nature. Paul made that absolutely clear!

You are missing the step-wise progression between "It is no longer I but sin in me" to "It is no longer I but Christ in me" maybe you didn't get the memo??? Most modern type believers see no difference between sin in a person and Christ in a person. Why??? They have never entered into Christ to be delivered from the POWER of sin. The gospel is about POWER...not just pretend religiosity.

You have not yet understood the gospel and the power of the cross.
When we walk in the flesh (our old sin nature) we cannot please god. that is why God gave us 1 Joun 1:9 so we can be forgiven in our wal;k.

There is a massive difference between our position in christ and our experience.

Not if one enters into Christ to walk as He walked. We are to overcome just as Jesus did by grace through faith.
Positionally we are perfect, seated in heavenly places, dead in christ etc.etc

This is a pretend doctrine that was invented to explain away the power of the gospel. Pretending is safe for children. But it is not safe for those who call on the name of the Lord. We are to flee iniquity...not bask in it.
.

Experientially, we are still growing in grace, are still being sanctified and still be transformed by the renewing of our ominds.

Sanctification is instantaneous...by translation into the kingdom realm. What is progressive is instruction in righteousness.
The problem with people never sinning again (though I wish i could) is that when one is saved- they know very little and will live in many sins simply because God has not taught them those things are sin. Even afterwards we get tempted, fall and confess and are restored! Gods love goes far deeper than the crowd who believes we must not sin again.
This is not about teaching somebody not to sin. The sin nature is powerful so that no amount of instruction can overcome it. This is a holiness issue. Only the power of the cross can suffocate the sin nature and make it of no effect. The gospel is about POWER over sin.

Believe the gospel.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You are missing the step-wise progression between "It is no longer I but sin in me" to "It is no longer I but Christ in me" maybe you didn't get the memo??? Most modern type believers see no difference between sin in a person and Christ in a person. Why??? They have never entered into Christ to be delivered from the POWER of sin. The gospel is about POWER...not just pretend religiosity.

You have not yet understood the gospel and the power of the cross.


Not if one enters into Christ to walk as He walked. We are to overcome just as Jesus did by grace through faith.


This is a pretend doctrine that was invented to explain away the power of the gospel. Pretending is safe for children. But it is not safe for those who call on the name of the Lord. We are to flee iniquity...not bask in it.


Sanctification is instantaneous...by translation into the kingdom realm. What is progressive is instruction in righteousness.

This is not about teaching somebody not to sin. The sin nature is powerful so that no amount of instruction can overcome it. This is a holiness issue. Only the power of the cross can suffocate the sin nature and make it of no effect. The gospel is about POWER over sin.

Believe the gospel.
Here we have it folks

to epi the gospel is about the power over sin

not about the removal of sin and the eternal salvation based on the cross.. which in turn gives us power over sin.

Epi is trying to save himself by becoming sinless. or reaching that state. a state no one can reach.
 

Episkopos

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Here we have it folks

to epi the gospel is about the power over sin

There it is folks...the only time you may hear EG say something true.
not about the removal of sin and the eternal salvation based on the cross.. which in turn gives us power over sin.

Beyond ridiculous. Sin has not been removed. Jesus doesn't say..."to he who removes sin will sit on My throne as I also removed sin"

NO.....it is To he who OVERCOMES as I also overcame, he will sit on My throne.

Grace is the power OVER sin. We OVERCOME sin by grace through faith. That is the gospel in full resolution.

Believe the gospel.


Epi is trying to save himself by becoming sinless. or reaching that state. a state no one can reach.
False and backward. It is the power of the cross that saves. You deny this power so it is you that is trying to perfect yourself. You deny the cross...and the power of Christ. Not a good place to be.

Repent while there is still time.
 
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Episkopos

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Reference please.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:4

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

All who sin are slaves to sin.

The soul that sins it shall die


If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body...you shall live.
 

rwb

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For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:4

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

All who sin are slaves to sin.

The soul that sins it shall die


If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body...you shall live.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

These verses indicate to me that Paul believed that as long as he was clothed in the body destined to death, the deeds of his flesh could not be completely put to death. Because in/through his mind he served the law of God, but in/through the flesh the law of sin. Isn't that why Paul longed to be set free from his body of mortal flesh/death? Knowing that only then through the power of Christ in Him could the deeds done in/through his flesh be totally put to death.
 
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ElieG12

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There is something that must be clearly understood in this matter: people can escape the slavery of the practice of sin—but in what sense?

A person who once had a vice can cease to be enslaved by it with the help of the holy spirit. A moment comes when they break free from it and are no longer its slave. This also applies to practices such as immorality: people who led a life of immoral conduct—promiscuous individuals who had sex with multiple partners of the opposite or same sex, with many others besides their spouse, sometimes with dozens of different people, compulsively—stop living that way; they escape it. While they are engaged in it, they believe escape is impossible—it is like a vice—and this is something understood only by those who have gone through similar experiences.

That is why we know that a person whom God helps can escape sin—escape the *practice* of sin, the vice, the habit—things from which those without God cannot escape.

Does this mean the person ceases to be a sinful human being? No, not at all.
Does the struggle end once someone breaks free from a vice? No, not at all.

Even though a person may have stopped practicing the things that once enslaved them, they might still feel an inclination toward those very things. Take, for example, someone who was a drug addict, a homosexual, or an alcoholic: they may still feel as though their body is craving the things they used to do. There may be times when they feel nothing, and times when they suffer a relapse. Have they ceased to receive God's help? Absolutely not. The very fact that they abandoned their habitual practice of sin shows that God is helping them and blessing their efforts. They may lose a battle, but they never give up, nor do they lose the war, because they are not alone; God Himself is fighting alongside them.

When will people be freed from the effects of our first parents' sin upon our fallen flesh—upon our very genes? It will happen during the millennium of Christ’s reign; He and the under-priests with Him will perform a work on behalf of humanity. While interceding with God for them, they will cleanse the earth and help all human beings of that era regain the health that was lost through our first parents. That is why, at that time, there will no longer be high cholesterol, high blood pressure, or the impulsive urge to do wrong. People will act based on their own decisions, not because their bodies drive them to do otherwise.

Once you grasp this, you will understand why no one is free from sin until that time arrives, and yet in what sense we are no longer slaves to sin. Until that day comes, Jesus’ sacrifice ensures that if we repent, our efforts are blessed, and we continue to receive forgiveness for the occasional relapses we experience as we struggle on—waiting for the time when we regain full control over our bodies.

If you are young, you know these things well. If you are older and have forgotten, recall what it was like in your youth... and stop thinking that simply because you feel fewer selfish desires now than you did when you were young, you have therefore been delivered from the corruption of the flesh. Do not let age blind you or lead you to believe you are more than a common mortal...
 

MostlyConfused

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For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:4

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

All who sin are slaves to sin.

The soul that sins it shall die


If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body...you shall live.
What is the difference between ”deeds of the body” and “flesh/fleshly?”
Is it just that one is the mindset and the other is…the outcome of that mindset?
 
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1stCenturyLady

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What do you mean by "is". Are you talking "positionally" or theoretically? The cross takes the outer man out of the way.
Actually. In reality.

Not sure what verse you are speaking of by "The cross takes the outer man out of the way."

Romans 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin.

1 Peter 2:24
24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

In Romans 6 the word "body" is like "catalogue." Like all of a writer's body of books.

Your experiences were amazing. And thrilling I would expect.
 

shepherdsword

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Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

These verses indicate to me that Paul believed that as long as he was clothed in the body destined to death, the deeds of his flesh could not be completely put to death. Because in/through his mind he served the law of God, but in/through the flesh the law of sin. Isn't that why Paul longed to be set free from his body of mortal flesh/death? Knowing that only then through the power of Christ in Him could the deeds done in/through his flesh be totally put to death.
You need to keep reading and look at chapter 8

Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Of course they took that part out of some bibles.
 

Episkopos

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Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

These verses indicate to me that Paul believed that as long as he was clothed in the body destined to death, the deeds of his flesh could not be completely put to death.

That a very wrong conclusion. All that Romans 7 signifies is that the initial grace is not enough to defeat the sin nature. Adding Christ to the covering of the flesh doesn't take away sin. What needs to happen is the outer man husk being BROKEN in order to have a NEW covering that is Christ. So then Paul goes from...."no longer I but sin in me"....to...."no longer I but Christ in me"

I hope some here can track that.
Because in/through his mind he served the law of God, but in/through the flesh the law of sin.

Yes...UNTIL his inner man was given the power of Christ as a new covering.
Isn't that why Paul longed to be set free from his body of mortal flesh/death? Knowing that only then through the power of Christ in Him could the deeds done in/through his flesh be totally put to death.
You are confusing two different events. There is the victory over sin while in the body....to walk as Jesus walked down here. And the final redemption of the body in the next age.