Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[ewq1938]

You can pretend that the following verses are not the wrath of God if you want.

God's wrath starts at the 7th trump as Rev 11 says. That's when the vials of wrath happen.

 

[PinSeeker]

Please note: If you continue to mince my every post in mid-sentence pieces...at some point I am just not going to respond anymore.

Yeah, I care not; suit yourself. I thought you were pulling out of this exchange, anyway, which would have been just fine with me... and really somewhat disappointed you didn't. But anyway, if I deem something important to note, I will do so, and in the way I think necessary.

I will say, though, sort of in the same vein, that your apparent penchant for isolating things and then stringing your responses into several posts seems silly to me, but yeah again, suit yourself. And the funny thing is, it's really the same thing, but in a slightly different form, as what you're calling me out on here. <smile>

What changes? Oh, just the advent, crucifixion, and ascension of Christ, His teachings and gospel, Him overcoming the world and being given all power in heaven and earth, the kingdom of God coming upon men, the finish of the House of Israel and the beginning of the Church age and times of the gentiles, God beginning to pour out His spirit at Pentecost, etc., etc.

None of those things changes; they are what they are. They may change the way one thinks about and understands those things, yes, but that's the very point. In... golfing terms, if one has a loop in his or her swing and cuts across the ball even the slightest little bit, his ball is going to sail out of bounds (to the right if he is right-handed and to the left otherwise)... and that's you, Scott.

None of which "nothing new under the sun" refers to--boy did you ever miss that one by a mile, or a thousand miles!

Ah, you misunderstood. Which... is a repeating pattern... And by the way, who's assuming things here? <smile>

And why you turned that all around to make me look foolish or whatever--is really telling--

I'm trying to turn you around, Scott. And really to help you quit looking foolish... or whatever. <smile> Regardless what you tell yourself... <smile> But yes, turn you, from your erroneous, um, "understandings." In the vein of my... golf parable... <smile> ...just above, it might only take a few minor adjustments. But until then, you are going to continue to acquire penalty strokes and, well, shoot some really big numbers... <smile> ...far, far over par... But again, suit yourself.

...since you didn't even acknowledge all the great number of changes...

Ah, right, see above... there are no "changes." All those things are what they are. You know... the grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of our God stands/endures forever...

But to what you say, here, on its face... I mean we can apply this to us both, and both ways, actually: if we think no changes are necessary, then, depending on where we stand, we think we have already made them... or we think there are no changes to be made.

"which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen."

Wow, talk about misapplications...

"Now-and-not-yet" is wrong...

Even though you yourself allude to it. I mean, okay... But when you say things like this, it seems you're making this concept of 'now and not yet' into something like 'then and now,' and those two things are totally disparate ~ essentially different in kind and not allowing for comparison... apples to oranges, as we all sometimes say.

, because back "then" (that former time) when Paul wrote the "now we see dimly" passage, and "now" (this present time) serve different purposes appointed by God.

So the "because" presented here doesn't in any way follow. But here we are again... To you, obviously, some of what Paul said may be applicable to us today, but at least some of it... it seems a lot of it to you... is irrelevant. I mean that's a huge problem, which... yeah, if you were to understand some things properly, it would change a lot of things for you, things like... yeah, like what you yourself mentioned above.

So, you grouping it all together as if that same principle applies both then and now...

And here it is explicitly. See above. I'm doing no such thing. You're the one conflating, or making it a conflation.

...means you are stuck in that former time and circumstance, and not tracking with God--you've effectively put Him in a box limited by you.

So... "means" nothing, because it's a total misunderstanding on your part. And to this, I would then say that because of this total misunderstanding... yeah, right back atcha, Scott, this "not tracking with God," and effectively putting yourself in a box, really, shooting those big numbers... But, yet again, suit yourself, which you are obviously so intent on doing. Nice job saying 'effecting' rather than 'affecting,' though... <smile>

Many do the same thing with the early church...as if they were doing everything perfect...

Don't think anybody thinks this, except getting back to the fundamentals of the worship of God and the fellowship of the saints... being led by the Holy Spirit rather than... well, other stuff... <smile> But were they "doing everything perfectly"...? No... But there are some really important ways in which we should strive to emulate the early church...

...Jesus said He was "somewhat against" 5 out of the 7 churches He named in the book of Revelation.

Uh-oh. I mean I don't disagree with this, of course, but I think I understand what you mean and what you think is the correct way to apply that, and that's where the 'uh-oh' comes in... <smile> Yeah just a few (seemingly) minor adjustments... But alas.

So, yeah, lots of things have changed down through the ages.

Humanistically speaking, yes. <smile> But you know, with God, the Father of lights, there is no variation or shadow of turning (James 1:17), and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever... (Hebrews 13:8). In that sense, no, not so much.

Even so, nothing has changed regarding each generation and person facing the same choice set before all: "life and death, blessing and cursing."

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

But the 7th Vial is different, and is called, "... the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath." (Rev.16:19). Or didn't you notice that the events happening on the previous 6 Vials involve the beast still in power over the earth? The 7th Vial cup of God's Wrath ends that with Christ's future coming "as a thief".

I'm not sure you understand that the 7th trumpet and 7th vial happen in the same timeframe.

I'm not sure you understand that after the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of our Lord are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

That means Armageddon is over.

That idea is not written. Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 5, pulling from the Old Testament prophets, that it will happen at a instant, suddenly. That is why Lord Jesus used the idea of it coming upon the world "as a thief" breaking in at night. Even in the Book of Isaiah, God gives comparisons to it being like starving men dreaming of a plush banquet and suddenly waking up finding themselves still starving. It is what Paul meant when he said it will come like the "twinkling of an eye" on the "last trump" per 1 Cor.15.

You don't seem to grasp that the coming of Jesus in 1 Cor 15 occurs at the 6th seal. It is the second harvest before the 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins.

The 7th Seal is a 'selah' (a pause, like in the Psalms). That is why there is half-an hour of silence accompanied with it.

Ok. And the 7th continues with the wrath of God which lasts ONE YEAR. It is the 6 trumpets / 6 vials that occur before Armageddon and the 7th trumpet.

Notice on the 6th Seal all islands are moved out of their place. Notice on the 7th Vial also all islands are moved out of their place. And Paul and Peter gave the timing of the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" as the 7th Vial timing when God's cup of wrath is poured out, and His consuming fire burns man's works off the surface of this earth.

Notice also that the 7th trumpet and 7th vial have the same events of lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Thus the 7th Seal, 7th Vial, and 7th Trumpet are all timed together at the same time

Oh no. Totally incorrect. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. When the 7th seal is opened the trumpets / vials happen in order. such as 1st trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd trumpet, 2nd vial etc. etc.

. Not all events John was given to write down happen in exact chronological order, otherwise the above would not be written as it is. That's why it's important to concentrate on learning the 'events' written, and not fall into a trap of numbers in sequential order.

The events happen in order as I have shown above.

I won't respond to the rest of your post, because you turn to personal insulting.

What? Did I call you out for things you claim that I said or believe................Then proving them wrong when that's not what I said of believe.

 

[The Light]

God's wrath starts at the 7th trump as Rev 11 says. That's when the vials of wrath happen.

So what are the 1st 6 trumpets?

 

[ewq1938]

So what are the 1st 6 trumpets?

The endtimes events with the 6th being the time of the trib which is the wrath of satan on the Church. God's wrath comes after satan's wrath.

 

[ScottA]

I'm trying to turn you around, Scott.

Yeah...that pretty well sums it up...and it's going to get you in trouble.

 

[Davy]

I just told you that I understand that 1 Thes 5 is talking about the wrath of God and not Satan.

You said:
"The wrath of God lasts ONE YEAR before Jesus returns for Armageddon."


What you said above... is a Pre-trib Rapture idea, and is actually pointing to the time of the wrath during the "great tribulation".

The 'specific' wrath Paul was pointing to is ONLY about God's cup of wrath poured out on the LAST DAY of this world, on the 7th VIAL, which is when Jesus comes "as a thief", as written in Revelation 16. That is why Paul mentioned the "sudden destruction" that will come upon those who will be saying, "Peace and safety". Not only that, but Paul marked that day of God's cup of wrath with the 7th Vial by quoting from the prophets about the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this world, and when Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is the timing Paul said also about that "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" per 1 Thessalonians 5.

Thus until you understand all that Paul said there in 1 Thess.5, you will continue to spew the false Pre-trib Rapture theory's view of the 'wrath' of 1 Thess.5:9. It is God's Wrath that will actually END... the "great tribulation."

 

[Davy]

I'm not sure you understand that the 7th trumpet and 7th vial happen in the same timeframe.

Something I have said many times. The 7th Vial happens at the same time of the 7th Trumpet and 2nd part of the 6th Seal (and thus really representing the 7th Seal). Jesus comes on 777. Satan comes on 666.

I'm not sure you understand that after the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of our Lord are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

That means Armageddon is over.

Yes, I do understand that. Per Rev.11 when the 7th Trumpet sounds, it's all over. All the kingdoms of this world then become those of The Father and The Son. Jesus then begins His "thousand years" reign over them.

Armageddon is the final battle of this present world, and happens on the last day when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church. We don't fight it. The Jews don't fight it. Only Jesus with His army from Heaven fights it (Ezekiel 39). It will destroy Satan's army coming out of the northern quarters upon Israel at an instant. It is the day of "sudden destruction" that Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5.

You don't seem to grasp that the coming of Jesus in 1 Cor 15 occurs at the 6th seal. It is the second harvest before the 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins.

The 7th Seal is a 'selah' (musical pause) marker. That's why it accompanies a half hour period of silence. A new subject is being presented, but that doesn't mean it is disconnected from Jesus' coming and His cup of wrath on the 6th Seal.

What you have not yet understood obviously, is that the events Jesus gave in His Book of Revelation through His servant John are... the same 7 Main Signs He gave in His Olivet discourse. Those same 7 Signs are simply divided up with new information in Revelation. Christ's Olivet discourse Signs and the Seals of Rev.6 are direct parallels. The final 7th Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse is that of His future coming to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation.

Ok. And the 7th continues with the wrath of God which lasts ONE YEAR. It is the 6 trumpets / 6 vials that occur before Armageddon and the 7th trumpet.

That one year stuff is a fabrication by men, not written.

All the vials are labeled as God's wrath, we know that. But the final 7th VIAL is about God's cup of wrath poured out upon the WHOLE EARTH on the LAST DAY of this world. Until that 7th Vial, the 'beast' kingdom under Satan over all nations will still be in power.

Notice also that the 7th trumpet and 7th vial have the same events of lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Yeah, because they both occur at the same timing. Already been through all that, so you've not proven your point, you're just repeating yourself.

Oh no. Totally incorrect. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. When the 7th seal is opened the trumpets / vials happen in order. such as 1st trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd trumpet, 2nd vial etc. etc.

As I have said, Jesus gave ONLY 7 Main Signs leading up to His future coming in His Olivet discourse, and they are the SEALS of Revelation 6. I even have a study somewhere on this Forum showing their parallel. Jesus' coming to gather His Church only happens on the LAST TRUMPET, like Apostle Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

The events happen in order as I have shown above.

What? Did I call you out for things you claim that I said or believe................Then proving them wrong when that's not what I said of believe.

You are simply trapped in sequential numbering for how John was given to see the events. Not everything John was given is written down in the exact order the events happen. This becomes obvious when one notices all the islands being moved in their places on the 6th Seal parallels that same event written on the 7th Vial at Rev.16:20. Some Churches simply believe all the events are in order that John wrote them down, that ALL... the Seals happen first, the ALL the Trumpets happen next, and then ALL the Vials happen last.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yeah...that pretty well sums it up...and it's going to get you in trouble.

Ah. Okay, then. <smile> I would say the same to you, Scott, although probably not in the same way you mean that... <chuckles> You know, no disrespect intended, but while I think ~ I think ~ you're a nice fellow, you're very misguided.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

Ah. Okay, then. <smile> I would say the same to you, Scott, although probably not in the same way you mean that... <chuckles> You know, no disrespect intended, but while I think ~ I think ~ you're a nice fellow, you're very misguided.

Grace and peace to you.

You cannot disrespect, then claim "no disrespect." Not anymore, not for 2,000 years, not with the Holy Spirit speaking.

 

[PinSeeker]

You cannot disrespect, then claim "no disrespect."

I have not disrespected you, Scott. You may have thought, at various times, possibly, I did, but that's a "you" thing.

Not anymore, not for 2,000 years, not with the Holy Spirit speaking.

Oh, my. <chuckles>

Well, the Holy Spirit does teach us all things and bring to our remembrance all that Jesus said, just as Jesus said He would (John 14), yes, 2000-plus years ago. But He is not saying... new things. More on that in a moment, but yeah, you know, I'm not really sure if you really think this or not, but it seems you do: He is not breathing God's Words into you even remotely in the sense of the prophets of old. As the writer of Hebrews says:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..."​

So yes, God, by the Holy Spirit, now speaks to us differently ~ "through a different channel," if you will ~ but, picking back up from above, He is not telling us different things, and that's where you've... gotten into trouble... <chuckles> I mean not with me, of course, but it is of your own doing... as Paul speaks to this in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, which I cited earlier:

"...the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."​

This time is here, of course. I mean you'll disagree, of course, but I don't mean to project myself as a "know-it-all"... unlike you, apparently, whether intended or not... But what Paul says there to Timothy (and us, by extension) speaks directly to your... misguided... understandings regarding certain things.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.

 

[ScottA]

I have not disrespected you, Scott. You may have thought, at various times, possibly, I did, but that's a "you" thing.

No, it's a written, quoted, recorded "thing."

 

[ScottA]

Oh, my. <chuckles>

Well, the Holy Spirit does teach us all things and bring to our remembrance all that Jesus said, just as Jesus said He would (John 14), yes, 2000-plus years ago. But He is not saying... new things. More on that in a moment, but yeah, you know, I'm not really sure if you really think this or not, but it seems you do: He is not breathing God's Words into you even remotely in the sense of the prophets of old. As the writer of Hebrews says:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..."
So yes, God, by the Holy Spirit, now speaks to us differently ~ "through a different channel," if you will ~ but, picking back up from above, He is not telling us different things, and that's where you've... gotten into trouble... <chuckles> I mean not with me, of course, but it is of your own doing... as Paul speaks to this in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, which I cited earlier:

"...the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."
This time is here, of course. I mean you'll disagree, of course, but I don't mean to project myself as a "know-it-all"... unlike you, apparently, whether intended or not... But what Paul says there to Timothy (and us, by extension) speaks directly to your... misguided... understandings regarding certain things.

I shall be as it is written. But you have unsoundly not included all of what is written...and that is written of also--you even quoted it.

 

[Truth7t7]

Getting quite wearisome from these kind of accusations [ Wait! Isn't that against CB forum rules? ], but,
as in the wise words of precious friend 70-year-old Charlie24:

"Well, it's not easily explained, it covers much Scripture, many things to understand.":

It is God's Sound Doctrine from a comprehensive study of All Of God's Related Scriptures, Rightly
Divided, and "Profitable For Doctrine", according to:

A) Bible study Rules, and:

B) [ prayerful / Careful 18-month study ] Outline:

(1) am I using The Right Bible?
(2) am I obeying God's Excellent "study" Rules!?*

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...*
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided = God's Timelines?
(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) Great Tribulation? Or tribulations/Greate GRACE Departure!
(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?
(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, for "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"
(10) "Day Of CHRIST!"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)​

- "The Day Of The LORD"?​

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Return "Without Warning!"?

(13)The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of GRACE!!"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!!* vs U-turn (theology?)

- Back To earth?​

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?
(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

C) Conclusion (Part 17): God's Great GRACE Departure!

Q: One verse makes a Sound doctrine?:

Some Opponents have not been very interested in discussing these Important things, usually
only blasting out their one favorite cherry-picked "post-trib" verse in Matthew, eh?

However, if one can "prayerfully / Carefully" 'debunk' All Of These Related Scriptures "Decently and
In Order", Only Then can pre-trib Grace believers change our humble minds over to agree with
our opponents, ok?

Amen.

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Just [ imagine? ], or Better Yet: prayerfully / Carefully study All Scripture, Rightly Divided?:

View attachment 90503​

Not one scripture reference used to support the claim of a Pre-Trib rapture, waiting?

 

[The Light]

The endtimes events with the 6th being the time of the trib which is the wrath of satan on the Church. God's wrath comes after satan's wrath.

The problem with your line of thought is that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The trumpets and vials are in the 7th seal. What you are saying is incorrect as proven by the Word of God.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.