Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[CrowCross]

Ok. Produce the scripture that says that the Church will be in heaven before the 7 years begin.

Produce the scripture that says that the tribulation is 7 years long.

YOU CAN'T.

That's because the scripture says that the Church is still here when the 7 years begin.

We've been over it....several times. I feel no need to argue the point with you.

Now, if you can present your "argument" in a clear and concise way with no babble and speculation...present it.

 

[The Light]

We've been over it....several times. I feel no need to argue the point with you.

Now, if you can present your "argument" in a clear and concise way with no babble and speculation...present it.

The days of Noah mirror the rapture of the Church.

The days of Lot mirror the rapture of the 12 tribes.

There are two raptures.

The story of Noah shows us that the Church is not in heaven 7 days or 7 years before the flood.

Noah is instructed to enter the ark in verse one. God tells Noah in 7 days there will be a flood upon the earth. We are told that Noah, his family and all the animals enter the ark in the self same day. That means they enter the ark on the first day of the seven days and we don't know what day the ark door is shut.

What that should tell us is that the Church is not in heaven 7 years before the wrath of God.

The reason this is important is because someday soon the Church will be raptured. If everyone thinks the Church is raptured 7 years before the wrath of God there will be much confusion.

Additionally, if there is a 7 year covenant with many that is made that will later be confirmed by the Antichrist, the Church will be asleep as they will think the rapture will have to occur before the 7 year covenant is made.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

if you can present your "argument" in a clear and concise way with no babble and speculation...present it.

I believe so, According to God's Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

A) Paul ( 'one man' type of One 'New man' Body Of Christ ), was "Caught Up to the Third Heaven", yes?

"...I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether​

out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew​

such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was​

caught up into paradise..." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4 cp 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 AV)​

B) The "story of Noah" teaches "Catching Up" rapture? No, The preaching of Jesus Christ, According To

The "Revelation Of The [ Heavenly ] Mystery" In Romans Through Philemon AV teaches The Closing ​

Of God's Dispensation Of Grace With His:​

​

1) One Mystery Rapture, His Great GRACE Departure! Upon This Comforting Removal { God Calling ​

His ambassadors Home To The Third Heaven! }, He Then Resumes His earthly Prophetic Program...​

​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)

C) ...In Which Prophetic Program, Resuming His Prophecies Concerning The "Time Of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble",

we Also Biblically Find Two More 'raptures', eh?:​

(2): The two witnesses "ascended up to heaven" (Rev 11:11-12 AV) , And:​

​

(3): 144,000 "sealed on earth" (Rev 7:4-8 AV) , and then "redeemed {raptured?}​

from the earth, And found before "The Throne Of God" (14:3-5 AV)​

Grace And Peace!

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[ewq1938]

Acts 1 says Jesus will return the way He left...AND NO WHITE HORSE WAS MENTIONED.

You keep repeating that error and ignoring facts like Jesus left alone but returns with an army.

Did Jesus leave with an army? NO ARMY IS MENTIONED

 

[ewq1938]

The verses speak of the gathering (rapture) and the removal of the restrainer prior to the antichrist being revealed....which begins the tribulation.

The verse also mentions a departure which has also been translated as apostasy ...a standing aside...which indicates a removal of Christians prior to the tribulation.

The removal of Christians is a moral departure in the Apostasy making them apostates. What happens is they fall for the false christ out of ignorance and false doctrines.

 

[sondring7]

Of course,

Starting from v15 shows you where Paul is getting his information.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].

Was Paul pre or post trib??

His second letter to the Thessalonians makes the answer to that question very clear ,

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed.

U wrote >> He would return on the last day to raise us AND judge the others,

to raise us
Confirming that you believe the 1 Thess 4.14-17 rapture is the LAST DAY raising of you & I

judge the others
Who do you believe are the 'others' ?

 

[Taken]

Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.​

RAPTURE;
Means…
A BODY MADE DEAD, then Glorified ALIVE is Raised UP OFF the Earth.

RESURRECTION;
Means…
A BODY MADE DEAD, then Departed Soul Returned To the Body, BODY resumes Living ON the Earth…
And in particular cases, IN the Earth / Hell.

WHAT The RAPTURE.

The RAPTURE is Spectfic in WHOM it applies To.

The RAPTURE is Specific in WHEN it Occurs.

The RAPTURE is Specific in HOW it Occurs.

The RAPTURE is Specific in WHY it Occurs.

The RAPTURE is Specific in WHERE it will Occur.

While a Resurrection is “similar” to the RAPTURE… a Resurrection… does NOT equally compare to the “testing” (proving) OF:
What, Who, When, How, Why, Where

1 Thes. 5:
[21] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[sondring7]

Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.​

RAPTURE;
Means…
A BODY MADE DEAD, then Glorified ALIVE is Raised UP OFF the Earth.

RESURRECTION;
Means…
A BODY MADE DEAD, then Departed Soul Returned To the Body, BODY resumes Living ON the Earth…
And in particular cases, IN the Earth / Hell.

WHAT The RAPTURE.

The RAPTURE is Spectfic in WHOM it applies To.

The RAPTURE is Specific in WHEN it Occurs.

The RAPTURE is Specific in HOW it Occurs.

The RAPTURE is Specific in WHY it Occurs.

The RAPTURE is Specific in WHERE it will Occur.

While a Resurrection is “similar” to the RAPTURE… a Resurrection… does NOT equally compare to the “testing” (proving) OF:
What, Who, When, How, Why, Where

1 Thes. 5:
[21] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Glory to God,
Taken

A good point :-
Rapture = same ( in a twinkle ? ) event - dead ( no angels used ) rise into the clouds then alive are caught up into the clouds
1 Thess 4 : and the dead in Christ shall rise first:....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
versus a different event ?
Matt 24.31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Lord sends His angels do the ( longer process ?) gathering of the elect yet no specific mention of whether it includes dead believers

 

[CrowCross]

I believe so, According to God's Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

A) Paul ( 'one man' type of One 'New man' Body Of Christ ), was "Caught Up to the Third Heaven", yes?

"...I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether​

out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew​

such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was​

caught up into paradise..." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4 cp 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 AV)​

B) The "story of Noah" teaches "Catching Up" rapture? No, The preaching of Jesus Christ, According To

The "Revelation Of The [ Heavenly ] Mystery" In Romans Through Philemon AV teaches The Closing ​

Of God's Dispensation Of Grace With His:​

​

1) One Mystery Rapture, His Great GRACE Departure! Upon This Comforting Removal { God Calling ​

His ambassadors Home To The Third Heaven! }, He Then Resumes His earthly Prophetic Program...​

​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)

C) ...In Which Prophetic Program, Resuming His Prophecies Concerning The "Time Of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble",

we Also Biblically Find Two More 'raptures', eh?:​

(2): The two witnesses "ascended up to heaven" (Rev 11:11-12 AV) , And:​

​

(3): 144,000 "sealed on earth" (Rev 7:4-8 AV) , and then "redeemed {raptured?}​

from the earth, And found before "The Throne Of God" (14:3-5 AV)​

Grace And Peace!

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

I have to your post. Neither was it clear but it also wasn't concise. It was just some outline you lifted from somewhere and made some of the words red.

 

[CrowCross]

You keep repeating that error and ignoring facts like Jesus left alone but returns with an army.

Did Jesus leave with an army? NO ARMY IS MENTIONED

You keep IGNORING the facts that shows Jesus returns TWICE.
It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

 

[CrowCross]

The removal of Christians is a moral departure in the Apostasy making them apostates. What happens is they fall for the false christ out of ignorance and false doctrines.

Depart from what? What does the verse say they depart from?

 

[CrowCross]

The days of Noah mirror the rapture of the Church.

The days of Lot mirror the rapture of the 12 tribes.

There are two raptures.

The story of Noah shows us that the Church is not in heaven 7 days or 7 years before the flood.

Noah is instructed to enter the ark in verse one. God tells Noah in 7 days there will be a flood upon the earth. We are told that Noah, his family and all the animals enter the ark in the self same day. That means they enter the ark on the first day of the seven days and we don't know what day the ark door is shut.

What that should tell us is that the Church is not in heaven 7 years before the wrath of God.

The reason this is important is because someday soon the Church will be raptured. If everyone thinks the Church is raptured 7 years before the wrath of God there will be much confusion.

Additionally, if there is a 7 year covenant with many that is made that will later be confirmed by the Antichrist, the Church will be asleep as they will think the rapture will have to occur before the 7 year covenant is made.

As I have said...the wrath of God starts in Rev 6....and intensifies in several directions over the seven years.
The good news is, is that the bride of Christ will not have to go through this punishment....Jesus already paid the price for it....on the cross. Remember?

 

[Taken]

A good point :-
Rapture = same ( in a twinkle ? )

Yes.
Twinkle meaning a bright light that quickly fades.
Meaning…they IN Christ bodily are Raised upward, in their New Body,
-And that They ON Earth may/ will / can / see unusual bright lights momentarily going upward and quickly the light fading.
* Considering…this usual world… half daylight / half night … who may see bright lights in the night sky…
* and following Reports…capturing Headlines…
* of the unusual lights..
* of world-wide catastrophes …
* OF:
plane, train, bus, truck, car crashes;
* OF:
children, neighbors, family members, employees, employers, soldiers, hospital patients, etc. missing.

event - dead ( no angels used ) rise into the clouds then alive are caught up into the clouds

The Dead Buried Bodies “IN” Christ First- immediately followed by the still Bodily alive “IN” Christ .

1 Thess 4 : and the dead in Christ shall rise first:....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
versus a different event ?

Same RAPTURE EVENT… of WHO.
The Lord IN the Clouds.

Matt 24.31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/B]

* Different EVENT.
* Rapture Complete…for those “IN” Christ.
* Then … Tribulations / Wrath from Heaven…
* 7- Seals opened one by one.
* …
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days (7 seals) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (7 Trumps begin)

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
(Rev. 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
and then shall all the tribes (Israel 12 tribes) of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matt 24:
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
( angels Gather His “Elect” /
WHO?…faithful ISRAEL…
From WHERE? All of Heaven.)
WHO is ON Earth mourning? tribes of Israel.
Why “they” mourning?
Because millions of ISRAEL, rejected Jesus IS the Christ Messiah Savior that was Sent TO them…

Lord sends His angels do the ( longer process ?) gathering of the elect yet no specific mention of whether it includes dead believers

Believer has a specific meaning…
Believer “IN” WHAT Specifically?
And WHAT SPECIFICIALLY Believing?

WHAT?
Mind Believing?
Or…
Heart Believing?
or both?

BELIEVER…”IN” what?
IN… God?
IN… Jesus existed?
IN… Jesus IS the Son of God?
IN… Jesus IS the ONLY begotten of God?
IN… Jesus Died and Resumed Living ?
IN… Jesus IS the Christ Messiah?
IN… Jesus IS Spirit?
IN… Jesus IS / WAS a human?
IN… Jesus IS God?
IN… Jesus Appeared “AS” a human man?
IN… Jesus IS God in a prepared Flesh body?
IN… Jesus was Sent FROM Heaven?
IN… Jesus was Sent TO Mary’s Virgin Womb?
IN… Jesus’ Numerous “Titles”, “Roles” He Performs specific “WORKS” according to which “Authority TITLE” He is fulfilling / operating under? (Lord, Son, Savior, KING, etc.)
IN… Following along Jesus’ teaching, and can QUIT any time?
IN… COMMITTING to Follow and can NEVER QUIT?
IN… Satan’s Existence?
IN… Holy Angels Existence?
IN… Demonic Angels Existence?

On and on… the “GENERAL” claim a man saying he is a “BELIEVER”… leaves MUCH to “guessing”, without a “specific claim of his Beliefs”.

A man claiming to BE “IN Christ”… is Specific, covering a wide range… of the Believer “in what”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

As I have said...the wrath of God starts in Rev 6....

No.
The 7 seals is the Lambs WRATH.

The 7 Trumps / 3 Woes… are a mix of
* Gods Promise to save His Elect / Jews
* the Devils WRATH

The 7 Bowls/Vials…
* IS Gods WRATH

and intensifies in several directions over the seven years.

All 21 Wraths / Tribulations Authorized by God…
Yes… do intensify step by step.

The good news is, is that the bride of Christ will not have to go through this punishment....Jesus already paid the price for it....on the cross. Remember?

Correct…
They already accounted “escaped / delivered From the Wraths TO Come…”
A promise to be Made fulfilled…
Before the the WRATHS begin.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[jeffweeder]

U wrote >> He would return on the last day to raise us AND judge the others,

to raise us
Confirming that you believe the 1 Thess 4.14-17 rapture is the LAST DAY raising of you & I

Yes confirmed.
Paul teaches according to the Lords own word recorded in the Gospels,

Jn 6
40 For this is My Father’s will and purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him [as Savior] will have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.”

Jn 12
48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.

judge the others
Who do you believe are the 'others' ?

Those who do not know God and reject the Gospel.
Paul speaks of the last day according to the Lords own word....,

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have belives].

 

[jeffweeder]

jeffweeder said:
When Jesus first promised to come back again in the Gospels, where does he refer/ allude to returning on a white horse???

Rev 19

Lol.

You seem to have more faith in your own interpretations of Revelation than you do to the Lords own straightforward word on the matter. You are contradicting his teaching by embracing a coming that doesn't occur on the last day.

 

[jeffweeder]

“Us”… not me…
Not necessary for the Lord to “DO”, that which He already Accomplished…”saved His Bride”

The Lord has informed us that he will raise his own on the last day.

NHNE?

New heaven and new earth.

2Pet 3
13 But in accordance with His promise we expectantly await new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

His Promise to come again brings the NHNE for believers and judgment and destruction of unbelievers.

 

[CrowCross]

No.
The 7 seals is the Lambs WRATH.

The Lamb is God.

 

[CrowCross]

jeffweeder said:
When Jesus first promised to come back again in the Gospels, where does he refer/ allude to returning on a white horse???

Why would that negate Jesus' coming or not coming on a white horse?

 

[Taken]

The Lord has informed us that he will raise his own on the last day.

Depends on “WHO” us is?

Depends on… “WHEN”, a man IS MADE, His own.

Depends on RAISED “FROM WHERE TO WHERE”?

Depends on “WHICH LAST DAY”… of WHAT?

New heaven and new earth.

2Pet 3
13 But in accordance with His promise we expectantly await new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Not in dispute.

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

Not in dispute.

His Promise to come again brings the NHNE for believers and judgment and destruction of unbelievers.

The Lord has many Promises, to fulfill Regarding His Leaving Where He IS…
Which IS…
In the Heaven Above the Heaven(S)…
And His Com-ING From THERE…
And ALL He Does along the Way, Before His Literal “Return TO Earth”.

Glory to God,
Taken