Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[amigo de christo]

1 Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

YEP . and who was paul preaching . WHO was the grace OF GOD having paul preach .
WHY i do believe it was the gospel that darn sure said YE MUST BELIEVE ON JESUS .
Now lets see . is that what the so called grace of epi PREACHES . NO SIR .
NO SIR .
so wake up and realize that the all inclusive god , IS NOT THE GOD and FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST .
NOT by a long shot it aint . it the devil.
Always comin g on to cause UNBELEIF .
AND WHO did GOD command for us to BELIEVE . OH YEAH , IT WAS ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
so much for this inclusive god that epi b ought .
Sounds to me like that god just wants to silence THE ONE TRUE GOPSEL that if a man believes in JESUS
he will be saved .
SO NO WONDER epi called me a religous extremist for preaching the dire need to believe on JESUS to an theist .
And no wonder he has always hammered me for telling and reminding all
OF THE DIRE NEED TO FIRST BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST .
I dont follow hyper grace either . I expose their walk , just like epi does .
ONLY I DONT DO IT UNDER A LIE like epi does .
OH he can claim to believe on JESUS all day , HIS FAITH IS DEAD as can b e
and his walks of so called holiness and talks of righteousness are all in vain .
CAUSE CALL GOD A LIAR and imply its okay to do so , AND IT DONT sound like holiness or rigtheouness to me .
BUT EPI LOVES IT . as he darn sure implies ITS NOT NECESSARY TO BELEIVE ON JESUS .
THough he claims to BELEIVE ON JESUS . sorry bud but any man that cliams to believe on JESUS
yet makes void the gospel , IS BELIEVING on the wrong jesus . that one cannot save either nor can its all incluisve message save .
OOPS . we been lied too big time by an inclusvive generation .

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Knowing what one is capable of (in the flesh) is not the same thing as committing the sin. As Paul said, "In me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing." I consider that coming to realize this is part of growing in the Lord.

And since we are warned against wilfully sinning after knowing the Lord, it must be possible for a born again believer to commit wilful sins if they choose to do so.

That depends on if you have actually been born again of the Spirit, then you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. The verse you quoted was Paul BEFORE becoming dead to sin. Romans 7:14-25 is Paul in the flesh, meaning he had not been born again of the Spirit yet. He had been a Pharisee at that time and all he had in his mind was the LAW. In Romans 7, ONLY verses 5-6 refer to a person that has been born again, and notice what I highlight.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Lizbeth, this isn't the first time I've pointed out to you the truth about Romans 7:14-25 where your verse is from (18). It really isn't that hard to remember. Go on to chapter 8 and see verse 9. "but we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells within you. And if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Where you quoted is still the ministry of death - the Law engraved on stone. Are you not going to study to make yourself approved? Don't stay stuck in the Reformation rut.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

so let me ask you . IS calling GOD a liar or saying its okay to call GOD a liar seem in any way to you
as SINLESS . even if they talk about living a life free of sin . I mean talks about holiness , righteous living
doing good to others , OH it would be a good thing , BUT NOT IF YOU CALL GOD A LIAR or even dare
to imply its okay to call GOD a liar . SO y ou need to know that . seeing you seem to like what epi says .
The dude wont even preach the dire need to believe on JESUS to an athiest .
And when i went and did so , WELL mr sin free holy and righteous man epi , called me a reli gious extremist .
SO i dont think them works gonna be saving him or any one else sister .
I believe in the power of GOD and in holy and righteous living that the SPIRIT does empower us to do .
I JUST DONT BELIEVE in men who call GOD a liar and imply its okay to do so
WHo try and preach these so called righteous acts and holy living .
cause DO I NEED to remind us all again , IT AINT VERY RIGHTEOUS and IT AINT VERY HOLY
TO CALL GOD A LIAR . not at all . OH i say , and say i do , NOT AT ALL .
His gospel of inclusivsim will not save him or anyone else . Its gonna be the cause of their own damantion on JESUS day .
And i would be a liar if i said otherwise sister .

I have never said that God is a liar, brother. I don't know what you are referring to. Epi as you call him, wouldn't call God a liar either as he loves God. I can see it in his posts to me. And if I agree with what he responds to me, I will put a like. And I know you well enough to know you wouldn't bear false witness, so go back and confirm what you read. What response number was it? You may be very mistaken and need to correct your mistake and ask for forgiveness. Just so you know, I don't read all of Epi's posts unless they are addressed to me. That is all I have time for. He and I are not 100% in agreement, but closer than others on here, and it may just be we have different styles of writing.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I have to differ with you here my sister. Holiness is not our attainment but an entrance into Christ to be where He is to live and walk in God's very presence. It is His presence that makes us holy...even in our immaturity.

Notice this...

And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. Is 35:8

I know very well that it is not our attainment, I didn't say it was. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, not us. THAT is what I teach.

Romans 1:16-17 "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Revelation 22:11 " He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

The first faith is by Jesus as the Author or our faith, and it is His taking away our willful lawless sin from our sin nature making it clean, and making us righteous, and that is the context of 1 John 3. We cannot commit a sin against the commandments of God anymore because it is not in our nature. But that doesn't make us perfect, which is holy.

Then Jesus and the Finisher works on the second faith of Romans 1:17 to make us holy. That is perfection where we will "never stumble." 2 Peter 1:10.

But there is a condition we must do and that is to abide in Him continuously. As we obey that condition which is fun and easy, at least for me, we will notice our behavior has changed over time as Jesus matures us in Him.

There is a big difference between purity and maturity. The pure can fall from grace and go in and out of the Spirit until maturity allows people to REMAIN in holiness. Such is the training of God in Christ.

I disagree. There may be a time before being born again of the Spirit where we may appear to be going in and out of the Church, not the Spirit. But we were not born again of the Spirit. I, myself, spent my first 30 years of life going to church, and then stopping for a while, but I wasn't saved.

SO whether present or absent from the Lord (in Zion) we do all to be at least accepted of Him.

And your verse from 2 Cor. is about death. When living we are absent from the Lord. And when we die, we are present with the Lord.

 

[CrowCross]

and how far is one progressiving in understanding if their understanding led them
to call GOD A LIAR and imply its all good to do so .
HELLO mr epi wont even preach the dire need to even have to beleive on JESUS
CAUSE BY GOLLY HE DONT BELIEVE ONE NEEDS TOO .
As he himself even called me a religous extremist for telling an athiest of his dire need to BELEIVE on JESUS .
And what did epi tell the atheist . WHO I THINK we sho uld know b y now an ATHEIST DONT BLEIVE IN GOD or IN HIS CHRIST .
But what did epi tell this athiest . ITS OKAY , if you just do good to a righteous man you will recieve a righteous mans reward .
REALLY . SO lets get this straight . AN atheist does not recieve GOD or HIS TESTIMONY ON JESUS .
THUS it means HE CALLS GOD A LIAR .
SO lets see what epi really just told that atheist . HEY BUDDY CALL GOD A LIAR ALL DAY , ITS OKAY
just do some good . talk about a false inclusive gospel .
YET when i come on to preach teh gospel to this atheist . Not only would epi not agree with me
HE CALLED ME A RELIGIOUS extremists . SO . THERE IT IS bud . YOU DECIDE who you gonna follow .
But as for me and the sheep , IT AINT GONNA BE THE INCLUSIVE PARTY . NO SIR .
ITS GONNA BE JESUS .

Yawn....please get down off your soapbox.

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[amigo de christo]

Even so Come LORD JESUS . This world will end but the sheep shall dwell forever with THE LORD
in the new heavens and the new earth wherein righteousness shall always dwell .
Forever , praise GOD , and Forever with the LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yawn....please get down off your soapbox.

if preaching a false gospel is your cup of tea then that cup will be thine end .
And the all inclusive one is such a deadly cup indeed .
Used to be they all warned against any who brought a false gospel .
Not to even bid them god speed.
Today under the banner of judge not correct not , NOW even that is allowed to remain .
You see the problem yet . The problem is no one will cast out one who brings another gospel .
So i have to continously warn against such . We had done far better and been far better off
had we never once heeded the seeker friendly . Look at what it led them all too .
Even now more and more rainbows coming into churches and still its judge not God is love .
Even now a false all inclusive gospel that darn sure has omitted the dire need
to Believe on JESUS , is allowed and if one warns , Its the same five words gainst them , DONT JUDGE , GOD IS LOVE .
Apparently it aint working . We really were supposed to have corrected leaven at the start .
But due to judge not God is love it was allowed to remain .
AND REMAIN IT DID and GROW IT DID . ITS a mess and a madhouse my friend .
But you go on with the judge not God is love .
Under those five words was how a harlot was allowed acccess in and sold her love as t hough it was the Love of GOD
and now sells her peace plan of anti christ with yet again the claim its of GOD .
I was about to say WHEN o when is all this madness g onna end .
But seeing i already know the answer , ON JESUS DAY , i suppose i wont have to ask the question .
But also seeing i never desired their destruction , T HAT was why i warned .

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[CrowCross]

if preaching a false gospel is your cup of tea then that cup will be thine end .

I'm not preaching a false gospel...so, please get down from your soap box of quick sentences and capital letters.

 

[Brakelite]

but can we achieve this?

We can't. But God can.

Like all the people in the churches that don't believe they can conquer sin through Christ and His grace power.

They do believe though. The believe the power of the flesh is greater than the power of God.

 

[Brakelite]

Holiness is not our attainment but an entrance into Christ to be where He is to live and walk in God's very presence. It is His presence that makes us holy...even in our immaturity.

Sort of agree with you here, I would say we receive Christ's righteousness by receiving Him. So its certainly not our doing, but its not so much us entering into Him, but Him into us. Same result however. Don't really want to argue semantics. I think it works both ways and both are true. I just see the transaction more clearly personally as "Christ in me, the hope of glory".

 

[Marvelloustime]

if preaching a false gospel is your cup of tea then that cup will be thine end .
And the all inclusive one is such a deadly cup indeed .
Used to be they all warned against any who brought a false gospel .
Not to even bid them god speed.
Today under the banner of judge not correct not , NOW even that is allowed to remain .
You see the problem yet . The problem is no one will cast out one who brings another gospel .
So i have to continously warn against such . We had done far better and been far better off
had we never once heeded the seeker friendly . Look at what it led them all too .
Even now more and more rainbows coming into churches and still its judge not God is love .
Even now a false all inclusive gospel that darn sure has omitted the dire need
to Believe on JESUS , is allowed and if one warns , Its the same five words gainst them , DONT JUDGE , GOD IS LOVE .
Apparently it aint working . We really were supposed to have corrected leaven at the start .
But due to judge not God is love it was allowed to remain .
AND REMAIN IT DID and GROW IT DID . ITS a mess and a madhouse my friend .
But you go on with the judge not God is love .
Under those five words was how a harlot was allowed acccess in and sold her love as t hough it was the Love of GOD
and now sells her peace plan of anti christ with yet again the claim its of GOD .
I was about to say WHEN o when is all this madness g onna end .
But seeing i already know the answer , ON JESUS DAY , i suppose i wont have to ask the question .
But also seeing i never desired their destruction , T HAT was why i warned .

@amigo de christo

 

[Episkopos]

And your verse from 2 Cor. is about death. When living we are absent from the Lord. And when we die, we are present with the Lord.

Unsure on how we are to act acceptably when we are dead.

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

 

[Marvelloustime]

so let me ask you . IS calling GOD a liar or saying its okay to call GOD a liar seem in any way to you
as SINLESS . even if they talk about living a life free of sin . I mean talks about holiness , righteous living
doing good to others , OH it would be a good thing , BUT NOT IF YOU CALL GOD A LIAR or even dare
to imply its okay to call GOD a liar . SO y ou need to know that . seeing you seem to like what epi says .
The dude wont even preach the dire need to believe on JESUS to an athiest .
And when i went and did so , WELL mr sin free holy and righteous man epi , called me a reli gious extremist .
SO i dont think them works gonna be saving him or any one else sister .
I believe in the power of GOD and in holy and righteous living that the SPIRIT does empower us to do .
I JUST DONT BELIEVE in men who call GOD a liar and imply its okay to do so
WHo try and preach these so called righteous acts and holy living .
cause DO I NEED to remind us all again , IT AINT VERY RIGHTEOUS and IT AINT VERY HOLY
TO CALL GOD A LIAR . not at all . OH i say , and say i do , NOT AT ALL .
His gospel of inclusivsim will not save him or anyone else . Its gonna be the cause of their own damantion on JESUS day .
And i would be a liar if i said otherwise sister .

@amigo de christo

 

[Lizbeth]

That depends on if you have actually been born again of the Spirit, then you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. The verse you quoted was Paul BEFORE becoming dead to sin. Romans 7:14-25 is Paul in the flesh, meaning he had not been born again of the Spirit yet. He had been a Pharisee at that time and all he had in his mind was the LAW. In Romans 7, ONLY verses 5-6 refer to a person that has been born again, and notice what I highlight.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Lizbeth, this isn't the first time I've pointed out to you the truth about Romans 7:14-25 where your verse is from (18). It really isn't that hard to remember. Go on to chapter 8 and see verse 9. "but we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells within you. And if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Where you quoted is still the ministry of death - the Law engraved on stone. Are you not going to study to make yourself approved? Don't stay stuck in the Reformation rut.

What is easy for some to remember doesn't mean it is easy for everyone. I'm not young any more and do have memory problems, and it is also hard for me to deal with too many moving parts at the same time, which this whole subject does seem to have a lot of moving parts and it is sometimes hard for me to take everything in, especially longer posts. (Keep wondering if it is time for me to retire from forum discussions.) I always need to whittle everything down to the bottom line with God's help, and I haven't got there yet with this subject. I guess since you are a teacher perhaps you're used to scolding young people in your church, although I believe teachers should be patient with both old and young.

Yes, I believe Romans 7 is what is is like serving God in the old way of the letter which kills and Romans 8 shows us serving in the new way of the Spirit which is life. But it is all talking to and about believers who already know Christ and have His Spirit, not unbelievers under the Law, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to walk in the Spirit, and Paul would be preaching of the need to receive Christ, not of the need to walk in His Spirit.

Galations 5 which touches on these same things in Rom 7/8, says if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. So we can be born again and have His Spirit, but it is possible to also be in the flesh or still carnal/immature to some degree and serving in the old way of the letter rather than the new way of the Spirit ( I think that is what some call legalism)........and these scriptures are pointing us to and encouraging us to walk in the Spirit (which again wouldn't be possible if we didn't already have the Spirit). Since Galations 5 also admonishes us not to use our liberty as an occasion to the flesh, it must be possible for born again believers under grace to use it as an occasion or excuse/license/cloak to sin.

You keep going back to your own personal experience as an example of how it should be with everyone, but I'm not sure if you realize that different people receive different graces and different measures when they first come to faith/are born again. We don't all have the same cookie cutter experience.

I have a hunch that nobody in this whole discussion on holiness understands it fully, and different people have different takes on it. And for me, until or unless the Lord gives me a handle on it, I will remain at sea with it.....and so be it. My soul waits for Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

Unsure on how we are to act acceptably when we are dead.

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Absent from the body.....which means dead. That part is talking about being accepted of him on judgment day. That is the context.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yawn....please get down off your soapbox.

Amigo is reminding us that regardless of what else Episkopos has to say....he is not on the right foundation. Lest we forget.

 

[Episkopos]

Absent from the body.....which means dead. That part is talking about being accepted of him on judgment day. That is the context.

You are missing the picture that Paul is painting. It requires some deeper thought and understanding to get Paul's meaning. Yes, he was talking about being taken up to be with the Lord...but then he morphs that idea with being present with God and absent from Him...not present in the body or absent from the body. If people are always absent from God when they are alive in their mortal bodies, then there is not...no longer I but Christ. It is a carnal idea. We can be present with God while we are still in these mortal bodies. We have this treasure in earthen vessels.

I am speaking here of a balance ...as Paul has done...between being absent in the body (dead) or absent from the Lord (not in the Spirit)

These are parallel but not the same. We can be dead while we yet live. Dead to the Lord....or just absent, meaning not in His presence.

Saints go in and out of the Spirit as training. Those who claim to always be in the Spirit, unless they are fully mature.... have never entered in. John says in Revelation......I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. That implies that there were times when he was not. Then where was he????

He was absent from the Lord in the sense of LOCATION....not IN the Spirit. He was at home in the body...not visiting with God in Zion.

SO then whether we are present with the Lord or absent from the Lord (not the body) we do all things to be at least acceptable to the Lord. IOW we remain disciplined in the body even when we are walking in our own power.


It's the difference between being plugged in...and running on our own back up battery.

 

[Lizbeth]

You are missing the picture that Paul is painting. Yes, he was talking about being taken up to be with the Lord...but then he morphs that idea with being present with God and absent from Him...not present in the body or absent from the body. If people are absent from God when they are alive then there is not...no longer I but Christ.

I am speaking here of a balance ...as Paul has done...between being absent in the body (dead) or absent from the Lord (not in the Spirit)

These are parallel but not the same. We can be dead while we yet live. Dead to the Lord....or just absent, meaning not in His presence.

saints go in and out of the Spirit as training. Those who claim to always be in the Spirit, unless they are fully mature.... have never entered in. John says in Revelation......I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. That implies that there were times when he was not. Then where was he????

He was absent from the Lord in the sense of LOCATION....not IN the Spirit. He was at home in the body...not visiting with God in Zion.

SO then whether we are present with the Lord or absent from the Lord (not the body) we do all things to be at least acceptable to the Lord. IOW we remain disciplined in the body even when we are walking in our own power.


It's the difference between being plugged in...and running on our own back up battery.

I see it as just being a play on words.......turning being "present" with the Lord (after death), into speaking of being present in the body. But it might be possible there is a dual meaning there, I just dont know for sure. We need to be careful with those, in case we are just seeing/ascribing something we want to see because we want to see it to support our doctrine/theology, rather than that the scripture is teaching us.