Simple proof that the rapture occurs on the Last Day, which is a post tribulation rapture

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Scott Downey

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These are all the same event, the coming of the Lord Jesus on the day of the Lord

Ephesians 1
9 He hath made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself,

10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.

Mark 13
19 For in those days shall be affliction such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is Christ!’ or, ‘Lo, He is there!’ believe him not;

22 for false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, ‘the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.’

26 And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

2 Thess 2


Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if from us that the Day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

5 Remember ye not that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—

9 even him, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 and with all the deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,

12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 whereunto He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold to the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God even our Father, who hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

2 Peter 3

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you, in both of which I stir up your purity of mind by way of remembrance,

2 that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,

3 knowing this first: that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts

4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”

5 For of this they are willfully ignorant: that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water,

6 whereby the world as it then was, being overflowed with water, perished.

7 But the heavens and the earth which now are, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing: that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy manner of living and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Therefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given unto him, hath written unto you,

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. Therein are some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing that ye know these things beforehand, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Thess 5
But as to the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they are saying, “Peace and safety,” then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that Day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light and the children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others, but let us watch and be sober.

7 For those who sleep, sleep in the night; and those who are drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore comfort yourselves together and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 

ewq1938

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When we realize that the fig tree has two harvests, there are two folds of sheep, Jacob had two brides we realize there are two raptures.

So pretrib is a fact because the Church can escape all the things written in the Olivet Discourse and will be kept from the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world.

The second rapture happens at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation and is for the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman Israel.

Then the seventh seal is opened, and the wrath of God is poured out on an unbelieving and evil world. That would be the mysterious 6 trumpets and 7 vials that you can't seem to find. Somehow, you find the 7th trumpet but can't locate the other 6.


Nothing in this post is scriptural.
 
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William Barton

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The rapture is prophesied to occur at the last trump, which IMO is the last/seventh of the seven trumpets.(1Corinthians 15:51-53, Revelation 11:15).

The return of Jesus is prophesied to occur after the rebuilding of the Jewish temple (Malachi 3:1) and on the day of a lunar eclipse (Revelation 6:12). A lunar eclipse creates a reddish appearance of the moon.
 
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The Light

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"Last day" indicates last day before an event, for example last day before graduation from high school. John 6:54 "last day" is the resurrection of the believing dead at the return of Jesus (1Thessalonians 4:16-17).
The last day is the end of the age. The last day occurs at the 6th seal. This is when Jewish Christian believers are raised from the dead.

This is when many of the people of Daniel are raised and alive believer are raptured.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The rapture is prophesied to occur at the last trump, which is the last/seventh of the seven trumpets.(1Corinthisns 15:51).
The last trump has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel. The last trump is blown on the feast of Trumpets a fall harvest feast. Ask any practicing Jew what the last trump is and they will tell you.
 

sondring7

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Jesus only teaches one rapture gathering, same with Paul

Example and there is a bunch of others and it happens after the tribulation of those days
Ephesians 1
9 He hath made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself,

10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.
Yes, 1 Thess 4.16-17
Where Jesus instantly meets the dead & alive in Christ in the clouds yet no gathering by angels as in Matt 24.31
Please explain that :)
 

William Barton

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The Light noted:
<Ask any practicing Jew>

IMO:
The seven Jewish festivals point to seven acts of the Messiah:
o Passover - Slain as a lamb
o Unleavened bread - He had done no violence (leaven is a symbol of sin)
o Pentecost - Sends the Spirit
o Day of Trumpets - Comes with clouds of heaven
o Day of Atonement - Atones for Israel
o Booths - Millennial reign

I don't recall meeting any Jewish person who understands this, but I imagine there are some.

The seventh trumpet ("last" of seven) signals the rapture, performed by Jesus himself, so that believers may be spared from the coming judgments. These judgments are then followed (after three-and-one-half 360-day years) by the return of Jesus and his mighty angels to Jerusalem. Then the millennial reign begins (Revelation 19:11-20:6).
 
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The Light

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The Light noted:
<Ask any practicing Jew>
The seven Jewish festivals point to seven acts of the Messiah:

o Passover - Slain as a lamb
o Unleavened bread - He had done no violence
o First Fruits - Not permit holy one to decay
o Pentecost - Sends the Spirit
o Day of Trumpets - Comes with clouds of heaven
o Day of Atonement - Atones for Israel
o Booths - Millennial reign
I don't recall meeting any Jewish person who understood this.

The seventh trumpet signals the rapture, done by Jesus himself, so that believers may be spared from the coming judgments. These judgments are followed by the return of Jesus and his mighty angels to Jerusalem, and the millennial reign ensues (Revelation 19:11-20:6).
You forgot to add the harvests.

Pentecost- The dead in Christ rise. The spring barley harvest.
Feast of New Wine - When the Spirit was sent. Likely when the alive that remain are raptured. The summer wheat harvest.
Feast of Trumpets - The rapture of the 12 tribes. The gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal.
 

Scott Downey

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Yes, 1 Thess 4.16-17
Where Jesus instantly meets the dead & alive in Christ in the clouds yet no gathering by angels as in Matt 24.31
Please explain that :)
There is nothing to explain.

You think people just fly somewhere on there own to a place they never been?

Hebrews 1
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
 

Scott Downey

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1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Archangels lead the Heavenly Host of angels
To be 'caught up' means someone does the catching and gathering.
God uses means, and angels have this as one of their jobs.
All the angels come with Christ when He comes.

Archangels have their orders of angels, they appear together, whether visible or not to people, they are present.
Luke 2
8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And [c]behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. 10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a [d]manger.”

13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:

14 “Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace, goodwill[e] toward men!”
15 So it was, when the angels had gone away from them into heaven, that the shepherds said to one another, “Let us now go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us.”

When Jesus comes again in His second coming all the angels come with Him, as well as the people of God who are in Heaven, recall Jesus is the only way to the Father who is in Heaven and His people are in Him, in His Son, so where He is they are also with Him.

2 Thessalonians 1
6 For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Matthew 13, the gathering is done by the angels, angels separate the wicked from the just, angels cast the wicked into the furnace.
Angels minister good things to those who will inherit salvation, they are all under the control and order of God
God is a God of order not chaos.

47 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind,

48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

  1. Matthew 25:31
    “When the Son of Man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.
  2. Hebrews 1:6
    And again, when He bringeth in the First-Begotten into the world, He saith, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
  3. 1 Peter 3:22
    who has gone into Heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.
 
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sondring7

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There is nothing to explain.

You think people just fly somewhere on there own to a place they never been?

Hebrews 1
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
++++You think people just fly somewhere on there own to a place they never been?

As in Matt 24.31 did angels do it in 1 Thess 4.16-17, 1 Cor 15.51-51 ?
If so, please list the verses :)
 

sondring7

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1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Archangels lead the Heavenly Host of angels
To be 'caught up' means someone does the catching and gathering.
God uses means, and angels have this as one of their jobs.
All the angels come with Christ when He comes.

Archangels have their orders of angels, they appear together, whether visible or not to people, they are present.
Luke 2
8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And [c]behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. 10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a [d]manger.”

13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:

14 “Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace, goodwill[e] toward men!”
15 So it was, when the angels had gone away from them into heaven, that the shepherds said to one another, “Let us now go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us.”

When Jesus comes again in His second coming all the angels come with Him, as well as the people of God who are in Heaven, recall Jesus is the only way to the Father who is in Heaven and His people are in Him, in His Son, so where He is they are also with Him.

2 Thessalonians 1
6 For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
The voice of the archangel raised the dead and caught up the live into the clouds in 1 Thess 4.16-17 ?
Keep trying Scott :)
 

Scott Downey

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The "voice of an archangel" signifies a powerful, authoritative, and unmistakable divine proclamation associated with the return of Christ.​

In the Bible, the phrase appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, describing the Lord’s return: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (Bible Hub) Bible Hub Bible Hub. This voice is not merely any sound but represents the majestic and commanding announcement of a chief angel, likely Michael, who is explicitly named as an archangel in Jude 1:9 and referenced in Daniel 12:1 Bible Hub Bible Hub+1. It conveys authority, divine power, and the certainty of God’s promises.

Biblical Context​

The voice of the archangel is part of a triple heralding of Christ’s return: a loud command, the archangel’s voice, and the trumpet of God. This combination emphasizes the cosmic and climactic nature of the event, signaling the resurrection of believers and the gathering of the faithful to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) GotQuestions.org GotQuestions.org+1. The archangel’s voice serves as a divine call to action, marking the momentous occasion of the Second Coming and providing hope and assurance to believers stackexchange.com stackexchange.com.

Archangels lead the heavenly host of angels

Theological Significance​

  • Authority and Power: The archangel’s voice reflects the highest rank among angels, symbolizing God’s supreme authority and the certainty of His plan stackexchange.com stackexchange.com.
  • Hope and Comfort: It reassures believers that the resurrection and gathering of the faithful are guaranteed, offering comfort in the face of death GotQuestions.org GotQuestions.org.
  • Cosmic Event: The voice is part of a larger heavenly proclamation involving angels and the trumpet of God, highlighting the universal significance of Christ’s return knowing-jesus.com knowing-jesus.com.
    In essence, the "voice of an archangel" is a symbol of divine majesty, authority, and the ultimate fulfillment of God’s promises, heralding the resurrection and the gathering of believers in a moment of profound spiritual significance.
 

Scott Downey

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The word archangel occurs in only two verses of the Bible. First Thessalonians 4:16 says, “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” The other passage is Jude 1:9: “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’” Michael is the only named archangel in Scripture.

The word archangel comes from a Greek word, archangelos, meaning “chief angel.” It’s a compound word formed from archon (“chief” or “ruler”) and aggelos (“angel” or “messenger”). The Bible suggests in several places that angels have a hierarchy of leadership, and an archangel seems to be the leader of other angels.

Like all angels, archangels are personal beings created by God. They possess intelligence, power, and glory. They are spiritual in nature, rather than corporeal. Archangels serve God and carry out His purposes.

Jude 1:9 uses the definite article the when referring to the archangel Michael, which could indicate that Michael is the only archangel. However, Daniel 10:13 describes Michael as “one of the chief princes.” This possibly indicates that there is more than one archangel, because it places Michael on the same level as the other “chief princes.” So, while it is possible that there are multiple archangels, it is best not to presume upon the Word of God by declaring other angels as archangels. Even if there are multiple archangels, it seems that Michael is the chief among them.

In Daniel 10:21 an angel describes Michael the archangel as “your prince.” Since the angel is speaking to Daniel, and since Daniel is a Jew, we take the angel’s statement to mean that Michael is charged with overseeing the Jewish people. Daniel 12:1 confirms this interpretation, calling Michael “the great prince who protects your [Daniel’s] people.” Perhaps other archangels are given the task of protecting other nations, but Scripture does not identify them. Fallen angels seem to have “territories” as well, as Daniel 10:20 mentions a spiritual “prince of Greece” and a spiritual “prince of Persia” who oppose the holy angel who brought the message to Daniel.

One of the duties of an archangel, as seen in Daniel 10, is to engage in spiritual warfare. In 1 Thessalonians 4, the archangel is involved in the return of Christ for His church. We also see Michael the archangel contending with Satan in Jude 1:9. Even possessing the power and glory of an archangel, Michael called on the Lord to rebuke Satan. This shows how powerful Satan is, as well as how dependent Michael is on God’s power. If the archangel looks to the Lord for his help, should we do any less?
 

William Barton

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Yes, 1 Thess 4.16-17
Where Jesus instantly meets the dead & alive in Christ in the clouds, yet no gathering by angels as in Matt 24.31. Please explain that :)
Jesus is God. He *reaps* believers to the sky (1Thessalonians 4:16-17), so they may avoid the coming judgment in the Middle East.

After the wrath angels *gather* elect Jews to Israel, God's city for them (Mark 13:27).
 

David Lamb

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Jesus is God. He *reaps* believers to the sky (1Thessalonians 4:16-17), so they may avoid the coming judgment in the Middle East.
Where does 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 mention avoiding " the coming judgment in the Middle East?"
After the wrath angels *gather* elect Jews to Israel, God's city for them (Mark 13:27).
Where does Mark 13:27 mention "wrath angels gathering Elect Jews to Israel? That verse says:

NKJV Mrk 13:27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

No mention of Jews, of "wrath angels", of Israel, or of God's city.
 

The Light

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IMO the rapture occurs at the seventh trump ("last" of seven trumps).

See 1Corinthians 15:51-53, Revelation 11:15).
When Paul wrote Corinthians and said that the dead and alive are raised at the last trump there is no record of confusion. John, however, does not write the book of Revelation until decades later. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.........the fall harvest feast.
 

The Light

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1 Thess 4 16-17 Voice of the archangel is the same as angels doing the gathering in Matt 24.31 ?
Please list just the verses that confirm that :)
I believe this to be incorrect.

1 Thess 4 is when the Lord Himself comes for the bride.

1 Cor 15 is when the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.